AI in Cosmere

[storming_kayana]

Hi everyone. I'm new at this page (not in Sanderson's books) so I'm not really sure if this post should be here. I'm also spanish so maybe my wrinting would not be the best. But here we go.

SPOILERS AHEAD

Spoiler

I was thinking about Nightblood and how it (or he) is able to think about itself with evident consequences in the Cognitive Realm (as we saw in WaT). This necessarily leads to the idea that Nightblood has Identity, hence, it is an "Artificial Intelligence" if we define this concept as "something that can act like a human without being one".
So, after this explanation, a question came up to my mind: for sure in the futuristic Cosmere people will be able to develop an informatic AI, not an Invested one. In this line, would be this new AI able to modify its appearance in Shadesmar as Nightblood can do? Would the "Cosmere-GPT" have Identity?
Maybe the easiest answer is to say that not because of the lack of Investiture, but think of an AI like M-bot (if you don´t have read the Skyward saga think in any fictional AI).
This question involves more question, as it could not be otherwise: has Nightblood soul? what is the difference between an Awakened entity and a normal soul? Who would win, Nightblood or The Stick?

Thanks everyone!!

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

Well, I know I can answer at least one of these questions:

4 hours ago, storming_kayana said:

Who would win, Nightblood or The Stick?

I'll give the boring, not funny answer of Nightblood. Sword vs stick already isn't good for stick.

As for the rest...

4 hours ago, storming_kayana said:

So, after this explanation, a question came up to my mind: for sure in the futuristic Cosmere people will be able to develop an informatic AI, not an Invested one. In this line, would be this new AI able to modify its appearance in Shadesmar as Nightblood can do? Would the "Cosmere-GPT" have Identity?

I don't think so. What you're saying is a Cosmere Chat-GPT, and if you put Chat-GPT into the Cosmere, it most likely wouldn't have Identity (or Identity like Nightblood and people do). This comes down to a fundamental problem in an incredible number of fields:

AI is just code.

It's clever code, and it can, to an extent, learn, but it's still code. And no matter how kind the GPT model you talk to is, it doesn't have feelings. You could destroy it, you could feed it erotica, you could tell it it's going to die by fire. And it won't care.

But Nightblood does have emotions. It can thinkfor itself. And it can make up its own Identity, instead of how it's regarded by people.

So no. Cosmere-GPT would probably not be able to change its Identity.

[alder24]

5 hours ago, storming_kayana said:

So, after this explanation, a question came up to my mind: for sure in the futuristic Cosmere people will be able to develop an informatic AI, not an Invested one. In this line, would be this new AI able to modify its appearance in Shadesmar as Nightblood can do? Would the "Cosmere-GPT" have Identity?
Maybe the easiest answer is to say that not because of the lack of Investiture, but think of an AI like M-bot (if you don´t have read the Skyward saga think in any fictional AI).

There is a difference between an AI like Chat-GPT and a self-aware AI. Chat-GPT is just a program and nothing more, it doesn't have a soul or an identity, but a self-aware AI is no different than a person and consciousness in Cosmere requires investiture. Brandon even said that in Cosmere making a true AI is very similar to making a child. You don't just need to write a code for that AI, you need to give it investiture to make it think and feel. Thus, a true AI will have its own identity and its own soul and in the Cognitive Realm it won't manifest like objects in beads, but like people in flames. 

WoBs:

Spoiler

Questioner

If an advanced android was created with artificial intelligence using technology—but not Investiture like other artificial intelligences—artificial blood, organs, all that stuff, would they be able to access Invested Arts?

Brandon Sanderson

That's an excellent question. It's a really interesting question in the context of the Cosmere. So for right now, I am saying—now, maybe we will invent true AI, and I'll have to backpedal, but what I'm saying is in the Cosmere, true AI requires Investiture. And so a thinking machine is going to basically... the line between a thinking machine and a spren is going to get very blurred. And it's going to either attract [Investiture] or require it, and so the answer to you is "yes, to an extent". There are some Arts that are easier to use and some that are hard, depends on all these things, but the answer is "yes"...A thinking machine that actually is self-aware would be a person in the Cosmere for that reason, and would have the same Cognitive aspect and Spiritual aspect—so a soul, if you would—that an organic being would have.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Snipexe

On Roshar, if there was an AI would it appear as a soul or a bead? 

Brandon Sanderson

In Shadesmar assuming there is an AI, would it appear as the soul of an object or a being? Most likely as a being, depending on various things going on.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

 

Spoiler

The Young Pyromancer

If you built a computer and you programmed it to view the world in a certain way, would that affect the world, like, Cognitive aspect?

Brandon Sanderson

Not unless the computer starts to become self-aware.

Questioner

What if it was an Awakened computer?

Brandon Sanderson

If the computer were becoming self-aware, then it would act like any other sapient entity.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Spoiler

DrogaKrolow

Sentient machines, artificial intelligence. Would they be able to use Investiture? Or not? How would that work?

Brandon Sanderson

So, define "use Investiture". Like, there's a lot of different ways to quote-unquote use Investiture.

DrogaKrolow

OK, I don't mean the medallions but like if I go and peek into the Spiritual Realm and I look at the machine, do I see Investiture inside it? The Connections to the Shards and so on?

Brandon Sanderson

Chances are good that you will. But I have to add a big asterisk to that, it's gonna depend on so many factors. But consciousness in the cosmere is directly tied to  Investiture. And creating a machine in many ways cosmerelogically is not that different from creating a child.

DrogaKrolow

Okay... Interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I'll just leave it there.

DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)

 

Spoiler

VindicationKnight

If a person in the cosmere built a fully sentient and sapient robot would that robot have a soul? How would it interact with Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It would interact with Shardblades the same way that spren do.

VindicationKnight

How does a Shardblade interact with a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardblades cut on all three realms. I'm not going to say too much here, though I might note that it's possible a robot like you say would act more like Nightblood than anything else--depends on what is involved in the creation, and how you determine the difference between a robot and a golem for these purposes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 15, 2015)

 

5 hours ago, storming_kayana said:

has Nightblood soul?

Yes. The 1000 Breaths used to Awaken Nightblood became his soul.

Spoiler

Shadow Guardian

Nightblood, being a sentient object, could he give away his Breath? 

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, Nightblood...could not give away his Breath. It's a good question. It's because that Breath is making him...like something weird has happened to him where the metal is Invested almost to a Hemalurgic or Feruchemical way, right? Like it's no longer just an object with a bunch of Breath. It's become permeating the whole thing. So it's more like the soul of a person, the part of the Breath they can't give away. Like when you give away your Breath, you retain some of your Investiture, you can't give that part away. It's the same thing. 

Shadow Guardian

Cuz I imagine it would be kind of like a Lifeless where that Breath is probably stuck so close that it would not be removable by an Awakener at least.?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, Yep. It's stuck in there, yep. I mean there are ways to get the Investiture out, but it's not the simple "We give it away" thing. Yeah, he can't just give it away. 

Shadow Guardian

<inaudible> corrupted or? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is part of it, that is part of what that means. 

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

5 hours ago, storming_kayana said:

what is the difference between an Awakened entity and a normal soul?

Hard to say. An Awakened entity like Nightblood is an artificial spren. Their souls are driven by the Command given to them during Awakening, which is something a normal soul doesn't have. An Awakened entity is also influenced by the object that is their body - Nightblood thinks like a sword because he is a sword. But they both have Connections and Identity and stuff like that. They both are not that different from each other but at the same time very different depending on how you look at them.

Spoiler

Boogalyhu34

Can Nightblood be considered a Splinter and does it function like a spren realmatically, are there distinct differences is what I'm asking.

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is kind of his own strange thing. He's an attempt to use one magic to replicate something in another. He's closest to a spren, but kind of like a...robot spren, for lack of better words to use.

[...]

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 25, 2015)

 

5 hours ago, storming_kayana said:

Who would win, Nightblood or The Stick?

Obviously the Stick. 

[storming_kayana]

2 hours ago, Through the Living Hopper said:

Well, I know I can answer at least one of these questions:

I'll give the boring, not funny answer of Nightblood. Sword vs stick already isn't good for stick.

As for the rest...

I don't think so. What you're saying is a Cosmere Chat-GPT, and if you put Chat-GPT into the Cosmere, it most likely wouldn't have Identity (or Identity like Nightblood and people do). This comes down to a fundamental problem in an incredible number of fields:

AI is just code.

It's clever code, and it can, to an extent, learn, but it's still code. And no matter how kind the GPT model you talk to is, it doesn't have feelings. You could destroy it, you could feed it erotica, you could tell it it's going to die by fire. And it won't care.

But Nightblood does have emotions. It can thinkfor itself. And it can make up its own Identity, instead of how it's regarded by people.

So no. Cosmere-GPT would probably not be able to change its Identity.

Okey, I see your point, but I was imagining a stronger AI (of course the GPT name is only to identify). So, we're talking about an extremely AI. Sanderson himself has written about this topic, and has created artificial characters with "real" emotions. In that case, what would happen?

[storming_kayana]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yes. The 1000 Breaths used to Awaken Nightblood became his soul.

 

Then, Nightblood can die, and then Nightblood would pass to the Espiritual Realm, and then he would be with Vin, Elend and the whole gang. it's interesting to think

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Obviously the Stick. 

Totally agree with you.

[Qianweilian He/him]

20 minutes ago, storming_kayana said:

 

Then, Nightblood can die, and then Nightblood would pass to the Espiritual Realm, and then he would be with Vin, Elend and the whole gang. it's interesting to think

 

Totally agree with you.

 

39 minutes ago, storming_kayana said:

Okey, I see your point, but I was imagining a stronger AI (of course the GPT name is only to identify). So, we're talking about an extremely AI. Sanderson himself has written about this topic, and has created artificial characters with "real" emotions. In that case, what would happen?

Double posting is not allowed. Welcome to the Shard, and here is the forum/discord policies.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, storming_kayana said:

Then, Nightblood can die, and then Nightblood would pass to the Espiritual Realm, and then he would be with Vin, Elend and the whole gang. it's interesting to think

Nightblood already exists in the Spiritual Realm, just like everything else does. His soul resides there and it's a place where Shards and investiture exist. However, there is a religious belief that after death, people go to the Beyond, which is separate from the Spiritual Realm. According to this belief, Nightblood would go there as he is a person - if you find a way to actually kill him, which is much harder than it sounds. 

[storming_kayana]

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

if you find a way to actually kill him

Maybe you can do an enormous transference of Identity from Nightblood to a Lifeless so you can, on the one hand, make Nightblood a real human, and on the hand, confuse the cognitive realm to manifest Nightblood as the Lifeless.

I don't know the sense of what I'm saying...

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, storming_kayana said:

Maybe you can do an enormous transference of Identity from Nightblood to a Lifeless so you can, on the one hand, make Nightblood a real human, and on the hand, confuse the cognitive realm to manifest Nightblood as the Lifeless.

I don't know the sense of what I'm saying...

No, Cosmere Identity (big I) is not the same as normal identity, in Cosmere Identity is a bit like an encryption key that tells investiture who it belongs to and who can access it (there is much more to it, but for the most part we don't know what Identity really do). Blanking Identity wouldn't change the fact that Nightblood is an Awakened sword with a Command, and a Lifeless with Nightblood's Identity would still be a totally normal Lifeless both in the Physical and in the Cognitive Realm. 

I don't think you can make Nightblood into a real human because his soul is engraved into the sword he is and his Command is giving him life, Command that ties him to being a sword. Not to mention he views himself as a sword and storing his Identity won't change any of those things. 

Spoiler

Paleo

Then we also talked about, theorized about unkeyed metalminds - that is Identity-less ones that anybody can that has the power can tap.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Paleo

We also were wondering is it like, we compared it to cryptography and encryption, stuff like that. Is it just that like, your Identity is sort of this unique encryption key.

Brandon Sanderson

And you need a key to you getting it. That's a valid line of theorizing. It is not exactly but it's close enough to be a good model.

Paleo

And would an unkeyed metalmind theoretically be capable of storing a little more than a keyed one.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, because of yeah.

Paleo

Because it has to... Is it inherent to the Investiture or is it like an extra bit?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that, mostly because I haven't considered that yet.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Phantine

So... CS question here, I'm seeing identity as essentially a 'encryption' on the metalmind - the spike has the decryption key to existing metalminds, but when you encrypt a new one you use your personal encryption key with the spike's hardware, so you still have compounding access to the metalminds even after removing the spike.

Is it possible for there to be a 'key collision' with Identity? Two people just randomly end up making compatible metalminds, because the pieces of their Identities that the magic looks like happen to be the same.

Brandon Sanderson

This would be about as likely as two unrelated people ending up with the exact same genetic sequence.

But, so far as I understand, that WOULD be possible.

Lucadaw

So identical twins could share metalminds ?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 9, 2015)

 

[storming_kayana]

Hace 12 minutos, alder24 dijo:

Por no mencionar que se ve a sí mismo como una espada.

Ah, entonces imagina que Nightblood decide considerarse humano. O mejor dicho, que la gente que no sabe que es una espada lo percibe como humano, porque pueden oírlo pero no saben que es la espada.

A modo de experimento, si todos, excepto Nightblood, lo consideraran humano, ¿cambiaría su apariencia cognitiva?

Hablando de eso, ¿por qué Kelsier no es "modificado" si la gente lo ha estado considerando como el "dios superviviente"?

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, storming_kayana said:

Ah, entonces imagina que Nightblood decide considerarse humano. O mejor dicho, que la gente que no sabe que es una espada lo percibe como humano, porque pueden oírlo pero no saben que es la espada.

A modo de experimento, si todos, excepto Nightblood, lo consideraran humano, ¿cambiaría su apariencia cognitiva?

Hablando de eso, ¿por qué Kelsier no es "modificado" si la gente lo ha estado considerando como el "dios superviviente"?

Identity is more like an antigen or a name. It says "This belongs to X" What you are talking about is Perception, or how people and things are thought about, or how they think of themselves.

[alder24]

48 minutes ago, storming_kayana said:

Ah, entonces imagina que Nightblood decide considerarse humano. O mejor dicho, que la gente que no sabe que es una espada lo percibe como humano, porque pueden oírlo pero no saben que es la espada.

A modo de experimento, si todos, excepto Nightblood, lo consideraran humano, ¿cambiaría su apariencia cognitiva?

Just perception alone won't be enough. He's still a sword, his soul is bound by this and his Command is also tying him up as a sword. You would have to modify his Spiritual DNA directly, but because he's an artificial creation bounded by his Command and body, I don't really know how you could even attempt it. His Command gives him life, but it's tied to him being a sword and it wouldn't work without it, so changing him into a human would mess up with his Command, which might kill him. Not to mention that any investiture that touches him would be consumed by him. 

Spoiler

Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

48 minutes ago, storming_kayana said:

Hablando de eso, ¿por qué Kelsier no es "modificado" si la gente lo ha estado considerando como el "dios superviviente"?

It has an effect on him, but he probably doesn't view himself as a god so for now he can counteract those changes. This effect of how others view Cognitive Shadows is especially visible in Heralds who went insane and all became closer to Ten Fools, and this is something Kelsier desperately wants to avoid. However, such a change won't be visible in Kelsier after 300 years he lived as a CS, it takes thousands of years for that to happen. Returned also are influenced by perception of people, their bodies slightly change to make them appear more wise, more old, more beautiful etc.

Spoiler

Questioner

Spren are reflections of how people in the Physical Realm see things. So if you have a Cognitive Shadow, would their personality change based on what people in the Physical Realm see them as?

Brandon Sanderson

The short answer is, not as much as you're worried about, no more than we tend to change based on what people say to us and how we interact with the people around us.

The long answer is, over a long period of time, it can happen. And it's gonna depend on a number of factors. But we're talking a matter of centuries not years. The same sort of thing you see happening to Vessels of Shards can happen to Cognitive Shadows.

So, the long answer is yes, but it's not an immediate worry. It's not like people start thinking of you and it shifts you because your perception of yourself is enough strong usually that it rebuffs these sorts of things, being self-aware does that. And a lot of the influence to spren and things like that happen during kind of formative not-quite-self-aware times, if that makes sense.

If you were to become a Cognitive Shadow right now, it wouldn't be a major concern, but in a thousand years, you may look back and say "wow, I was shaped by public perception in ways that I wasn't expecting".

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Mr Fancy

The Returned. When they come back, they appear really attractive. Is that based on their own idea of what's attractive, or society?

Brandon Sanderson

It is going to be society. But they are definitely having an influence over it, so let me say both in that case... Yeah, there could be a short, bald one. That is totally viable, but it's maybe what the person views as a societal ideal, how about that, an easier way to explain that.

Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018)

 

Spoiler

celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain Cognitive Shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a Cognitive Shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are Cognitive Shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a Cognitive Shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Sept. 8, 2020)

 

[storming_kayana]

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Just perception alone won't be enough. He's still a sword, his soul is bound by this and his Command is also tying him up as a sword. You would have to modify his Spiritual DNA directly, but because he's an artificial creation bounded by his Command and body, I don't really know how you could even attempt it. His Command gives him life, but it's tied to him being a sword and it wouldn't work without it, so changing him into a human would mess up with his Command, which might kill him. Not to mention that any investiture that touches him would be consumed by him. 

 

Okey.. But the words have power. For example: Wax is the Harmony's sword. Obviously it is metaphorical, but leading that line we could do something with Nightblood. He would continue being a sword.