Was that Luminist?

[Rynon2112]

I'm gonna now talk about secret history but I promise it is related to Isles of the Emberdark.

I have been rereading the Cosmere, particularly the Mistborn series, and while rereading Secret History the other day this paragraph caught my attention:

Quote

“It’s interesting,” the Drifter said. “Which is enough for me.” He reached down to the corpse he was using as a boat, then removed something from his pocket. Something that glowed, though Kelsier couldn’t tell if it was something naturally radiant, or just something made of metal.
The glow faded as the Drifter administered it to his vessel, then— covering the motion with a cough, as if to hide from Kelsier what he was doing—furtively applied some of the glow to his oar. When he placed the oar back into the mists, it sent the boat scooting closer to the Well.

 As you can see, this is similar to when 6th uses the worm paste on his oar and boat. It might be a bit too rash to say that, somehow, Hoid got his hands on some luminist waaay before the events of IotE, but he crearly uses some sort of substance to coat the objects so they don't sink when moving around the Scadrial subastral. Another weird thing is that he pulls it out of the pocket of the "spirit". It could be any other type of Investiture, but it can't be stormlight. Do we think its Breaths? something else? I really just want to hear more opinions because I got surprised when i found a reference to this process of applying Investiture to a vessel in a different book all together lol.

[Frustration]

This could be whatever Cakoban was using.

[PanLin they/he]

Literally had this exact thought on my own recent re-read of Secret History

As I said in that message, I suspect that any raw investiture gives the same effect. My gut says it's the same sort of Dor that Moonlight uses in The Lost Metal, but I'm really not basing that on anything other than vibes.

1 hour ago, Rynon2112 said:

It could be any other type of Investiture, but it can't be stormlight

Is there a reason it couldn't have been liquid stormlight?

[Treamayne]

Thank you for the Intro Post, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips. 

1 hour ago, Rynon2112 said:

As you can see, this is similar to when 6th uses the worm paste on his oar and boat. It might be a bit too rash to say that, somehow, Hoid got his hands on some luminist waaay before the events of IotE

The substance used by Hoid in Secret History is implied to be Purified Dor. WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

My question's about Secret History, specifically it's kind of a two-parter. The first part's easier to answer. Is it relevant that the glowing substance that Hoid puts on his oar is very similarly described as the same stuff that the Ire drink, the glowing--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that is relevant.

Questioner

And does it have to do with Connection.

Brandon Sanderson

Ah… *sighs* Yes, but not the way you're thinking. That's a "I'm wiggling out of..." Yes, it has to do with Connection, but so does a dog. Cause a dog is Connected to things. *laughs in the audience* You said "does it have to do with"! The answer is yes.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

Hope that helps

[Rynon2112]

1 hour ago, PanLin said:

Is there a reason it couldn't have been liquid stormlight?

Just timeline wise. In the stormlight books they've told us that stormlight is reaaly difficult to take away from Roshar. MAYBE theres someone that has been able to liquefy it but it probably could not be taken away form the system when Secret History happens.

 

33 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

  Hide contents

Questioner

My question's about Secret History, specifically it's kind of a two-parter. The first part's easier to answer. Is it relevant that the glowing substance that Hoid puts on his oar is very similarly described as the same stuff that the Ire drink, the glowing--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that is relevant.

Questioner

And does it have to do with Connection.

Brandon Sanderson

Ah… *sighs* Yes, but not the way you're thinking. That's a "I'm wiggling out of..." Yes, it has to do with Connection, but so does a dog. Cause a dog is Connected to things. *laughs in the audience* You said "does it have to do with"! The answer is yes.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

Hope that helps

 See, I thought about purified Dor, but I though it was always a liquid and Hoid reaching towards a pocket and taking a liquid discretely sounded weird to me. It could be a pomade or wax version that the Ire use but because it's never showed I liked to see other opinions lol.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Rynon2112 said:

I thought about purified Dor, but I though it was always a liquid

But, it is not a liquid, technically.

All Cosmere - realmatics spoilers

Spoiler

Investiture, Matter, and Energy are all transmutable (IRL matter/energy with a third option for the cosmere) - but - that also means that investiture in the cognitive or physical realm can be itself without becoming a physical solid or a form of energy. This means that when investiture is not transmuting, it 'appears' to be another state without actually having all of the properties of that state. For example:

• The Well was filled with "liquid" preservation, but it was not a physcial liquid. It did not dampen Vin's clothes, it did not "splash" when Kelsier and Drifter tussled - it existed all three realms with the appearance of liquid, but not the properties of liquid. 
• Breath and Mist both appear to be a gas - but they also do not have the properties of physical gaseous state matter. They are unaffected by wind (Vivenne's arms do not cause eddies when she tries to use her hands to ward off Lemex's Breath

Contrast with

• Shardblades are investiture actually taking a solid (metallic) state - once they manifest as Matter, they also have properties of matter (compare a Bead of Lerasium to the Mist)
• Stormlight exists as investiture appearing as energy while captive in a Gemstone - it emits light and behaves much like energy, but does not have the thremal transfer properties of light-emitting things, and it converts directly to a gaseous-like state when not stored in a gemstone (similar to mist as it moves from the gems to the Radiant - again behaving like energy in their body, but excreting as both energy (light/glowing) and gas (whisps of stormlight escaping from exposed skin). 

Purified Dor, then, has at least one known manifestation - as a non-matter liquid-like state. However, being liquid-like also means it is subject to perception (or possibly other processes). The viscocity is not tied to "water" and it is likely it can be as "thick" or "thin" as necessary - just as Dusk considers the Luminist to be paste-like (and was told as much, so that was how his perceptions were formed) there is no reason Luminist cannot be thinner (more like water) or Dor thicker - both are Investiture in a non-matter liquid-like state. 

Hope that helps

Edited March 15 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

But, it is not a liquid, technically.

All Cosmere - realmatics spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Investiture, Matter, and Energy are all transmutable (IRL matter/energy with a third option for the cosmere) - but - that also means that investiture in the cognitive or physical realm can be itself without becoming a physical solid or a form of energy. This means that when investiture is not transmuting, it 'appears' to be another state without actually having all of the properties of that state. For example:

• The Well was filled with "liquid" preservation, but it was not a physcial liquid. It did not dampen Vin's clothes, it did not "splash" when Kelsier and Drifter tussled - it existed all three realms with the appearance of liquid, but not the properties of liquid. 
• Breath and Mist both appear to be a gas - but they also do not have the properties of physical gaseous state matter. They are unaffected by wind (Vivenne's arms do not cause eddies when she tries to use her hands to ward off Lemex's Breath

Contrast with

• Shardblades are investiture actually taking a solid (metallic) state - once they manifest as Matter, they also have properties of matter (compare a Bead of Lerasium to the Mist)
• Stormlight exists as investiture appearing as energy while captive in a Gemstone - it emits light and behaves much like energy, but does not have the thremal transfer properties of light-emitting things, and it converts directly to a gaseous-like state when not stored in a gemstone (similar to mist as it moves from the gems to the Radiant - again behaving like energy in their body, but excreting as both energy (light/glowing) and gas (whisps of stormlight escaping from exposed skin). 

Purified Dor, then, has at least one known manifestation - as a non-matter liquid-like state. However, being liquid-like also means it is subject to perception (or possibly other processes). The viscocity is not tied to "water" and it is likely it can be as "thick" or "thin" as necessary - just as Dusk considers the Luminist to be paste-like (and was told as much, so that was how his perceptions were formed) there is no reason Luminist cannot be thinner (more like water) or Dor thicker - both are Investiture in a non-matter liquid-like state. 

Hope that helps

Well not even technically.

The Dor corresponds most neatly to plasma, with a few odd quirks

Spoiler

Brightlord Maelstrom

Quesion about Selish magic systems. So, you've described, in the past, the Dor in the Cognitive Realm as being almost like magma. Is that just in consistency, or also does that also include in its temperature?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it's more temperature than consistency. Plasma-ish is maybe even a better way of putting it.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Blaze1616

The Dor: Is it gaseous Investiture or is it something else completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh that's a great question. People have not been asking enough about the Dor.

Blaze1616

And if it is gaseous—or not gaseous—is it plasma?

Brandon Sanderson

*Long pause*

You got it. *said definitively*

It's super sup-- not plasm-- yeah, it's super-dense to the point that's it's liquefied and dense-- does that make sense? So it's plasma, basically. It's its own weird thing, so yeah. What you can write is that it's its own weird thing that's kind of plasma-like.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

 

Questioner

Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

The Dor corresponds most neatly to plasma, with a few odd quirks

Yes, Dor as it naturally manifests in Sel's Shadesmar - which is not the same as Purified Dor seen outside of Sel's Shadesmar (e. g. M:SH, TLM, etc.)

We just do not yet know what process they are doing to safely harvest it and manipulate it's properties.

The only instance I can recall where Dor may have still been in a plasma state away from Sel was (Stormlight Archive Spoilers)

Spoiler

The Dor inside of Riino's "fortune-telling ball" in the Lighthouse

 

Edited March 15 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarification

[Rynon2112]

But every time we see it is been drank from cups, stored in vases or pooling, no? I guess the corpse could be carrying a flask or something. And that probably would mean Spanky was with the Ire before passing

[PanLin they/he]

6 minutes ago, Rynon2112 said:

But every time we see it is been drank from cups, stored in vases or pooling, no? I guess the corpse could be carrying a flask or something.

Well, raw investiture is super strongly affected by perception (Komashi's Nightmares, Threnodite Entities, spren creation, personality/Identity shifts in the Heralds). If it looks enough like a liquid, the unconscious perception of everyone who observes it is likely enough to make it act like liquid. Then, the more it acts like one, the more strongly it's perceived as one.

That doesn't mean it _is_ a liquid though. Either Hoid has the knowledge and ability to shape raw investiture like that (maybe it's even keyed to him and his Identity somehow?), or it simply does just act enough like a liquid that you can pop it in a flask in your pocket.

[Rynon2112]

I get the technicality that it is not a liquid lol. But so far it's been presented to us in a fluid like state.
Coming to the keyed part you where talking about @PanLin, I don't think that would be necessary the case here. We've seen Purified Dor change hands before and used by different people, with invested abilities or not. It feels like it has become a type of commodity, event it is a very hard one to get your hands on. It's become the equivalent to very scarce petrol atm by the looks of if.