Nicrosil interactions with shardplate and awakened objects

[DoctaDajman]

So I have always assumed that chromium would only be able to effect shardplate if the plate was cracked and leaking stormlight and then the plate would lock up faster. 

But what of Nicrosil? Would it cause the plate to use the stormlight faster and actually heal up quicker?

I picture plate as not really using investiture except when it is damaged and thus neither metal would have much effect at all if the plate was fully intact. 

 

So put a nicrosil misting inside of plate. Could they use their own nicrosil to cause the plate to use up stormlight and knit itself up faster? Then once it isnt using the stormlight anymore it wouldnt have effect because no investiture would be active at that moment (just like if an allomancer wasn't burning their metal). 

Likewise... if that was unoathed plate and drawing directly from the Spiritual realm to heal would a nicroburst be able to speed up that process many times over through nicrobursting the armor from within to heal itself? 

Would there be any interaction with nightblood or another shardblade do you think?  

 

Now for awakened objects... we know that awakening cant create some perpetual motion device as the breath would eventually run out. Does this mean that the breath is actually being used up slowly to operate the object?  What would happen to an object if a nicroburst were to use their power on it?  Could they waste the breaths used to "hold" themselves from the cloth or would the object suddenly crush them if they nicroburst it?  

Edited January 4 by DoctaDajman

[Adonalsium Will Return He/him]

I think that Plate uses Stormlight to give its wearer the strength and speed boosts, so the Nicroburst would have superpowers until their nicrosil ran out.

[DoctaDajman]

45 minutes ago, Ookla the Returned said:

I think that Plate uses Stormlight to give its wearer the strength and speed boosts, so the Nicroburst would have superpowers until their nicrosil ran out.

I always envisioned plate as being the reason the shardbearer was stronger and faster. I dont recall shardbearers mentioning feeling like their body changed just that what they can do changes in the plate. Evidence of that would be that the Gemstones in the shardplate arent being used up when it isnt taking damage (correct me if I am wrong here).  

In game terms I figured shardplate has an HP pool of its own and has a battery charged heal over time in the form of stormlight infused gems for dead plate or a direct link to imvestiture when living. (personally I think that is tied to the sprens determination and willingness to stay put which gets healed and fixed with stormlight or investiture directly from the Spiritual realm in the case of living plate). 

While your shardplate is at 100% health or determination it provides the highest strength boosts, armor ratings, and speed buffs available. This also means that it takes the largest hits to hurt it in this state. Strikes from men do nothing in this state. You need something bigger and stronger to crack it. But once it is cracked it provides less and less.  

At 90% it provides less armor rating meaning it can take damage from weaker sources and it offers less strength and speed benefits. 

This progressively gets worse and worse until it is drained of stormlight  and no longer able to power itself or try to repair itself. 

So in regards to nicrosil I just see that battery "heal over time" being used far faster than its natural state. 

This does kind of break living plate, especially if the battery the spren are drawing from is the Spiritual realm. How would you ever get through that plate if it instantly heals back up everytime the user gets a crack?  

Knowing that even the unoathed spren cry out when they are injured makes this even more potent. 

My hypothesis is that, if plate works even remotely how I envision, a nicroburst that finds themselves in plate could basically instantly heal their living plate to 100% of all bonuses everytime it takes the necessary damage to make a spren cry out. Since my theory is that plate takes more damage based on how damaged it is this basically just maximizes the benefits of the armor and, until the nicroburst runs out of metal, the plate gets to near instantly return to its pristine condition. There are no gems for it to run on nor is there a radiant who acts as the battery pack feeding it stormlight. It draws directly from the Spiritual realm and so the nicrosil will get consumed and work all the way until the spren are back to their baseline and arent trying to draw in. 

It is the spren who are the magic users. It is the spren who feel the need to draw on magical ability to return themselves to their perfect spiritual self. Much like how healing works in all of the cosmere. 

Nicrosil doesnt drain abilities that arent in use. Chromium drains everything there that it can. But I believe that nicrosil works specifically on people using kinetic investiture actively. The spren using it to heal in this case. 

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

Evidence of that would be that the Gemstones in the shardplate arent being used up when it isnt taking damage (correct me if I am wrong here).  

You are wrong here - The gemstones (not Spheres) must have Stormlight for the plate to even size to the wearer or be wearable. It certainly drains much faster when damaged, but the Stormlight drains constantly just by being worn. Just one in-story example - Dawnshard Ch  16:

Spoiler

Nearby, Cord muttered softly. Rysn glanced over to find the Horneater woman had the Shardplate boots on, and was now trying to force the breastplate to take her spheres.

“I think you need free gemstones, Cord,” Rysn said. “Not ones encased in glass.”

“I don’t have enough of those,” Cord said.

“We could use these.” Rysn gestured to the rubies under her bench.

Cord hesitated.

“It’s all right,” Rysn said. “If you can get that Plate working, you might be able to defend us.”

 

[DoctaDajman]

14 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

You are wrong here - The gemstones (not Spheres) must have Stormlight for the plate to even size to the wearer or be wearable. It certainly drains much faster when damaged, but the Stormlight drains constantly just by being worn. Just one in-story example - Dawnshard Ch  16:

  Hide contents

Nearby, Cord muttered softly. Rysn glanced over to find the Horneater woman had the Shardplate boots on, and was now trying to force the breastplate to take her spheres.

“I think you need free gemstones, Cord,” Rysn said. “Not ones encased in glass.”

“I don’t have enough of those,” Cord said.

“We could use these.” Rysn gestured to the rubies under her bench.

Cord hesitated.

“It’s all right,” Rysn said. “If you can get that Plate working, you might be able to defend us.”

 

Interesting. Do you think that nicrosil would simply super charge it then? Like nicrobursting a pewter misting?  Because that hints that it is always moving and always using the kinetic investiture then right? 

My assumption was that there was a ceiling to the power it could use and being pristine made it so that there was a limit there. 

[Treamayne]

26 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Because that hints that it is always moving and always using the kinetic investiture then right? 

My assumption was that there was a ceiling to the power it could use and being pristine made it so that there was a limit there. 

Well, Plate makes the wearer faster, stronger, more agile and more durable. Pewter does the same to a Misting. We cannot know for certain until/unless Brandon gives a direct WoB or writes the interaction into a book; but yes, Nicrobursted Plate and Duralumin+Pewter should be very similar effects - with Stormlight being consumed until either all of the light or all of the Nicrosil is depleted. The Investiture density of Light versus metal implies that a Nicroburst would need a lot of metal to force plate to consume all available light in the gems powering it. We have no indication that Unoathed plate is able to access investiture from any source other than gems - since living Plate feeds off of their Radiant's light, not the Spiritual Realm. 

[DoctaDajman]

26 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

We have no indication that Unoathed plate is able to access investiture from any source other than gems - since living Plate feeds off of their Radiant's light, not the Spiritual Realm. 

Okay. This is interesting. I thought with stormlight gone now this was the only way living plate could work. 

I assumed that the dead plate would become obsolete with no more stormlight and shardbearers would become more rare but at the same time far more dangerous because all of them would eventually become living plate. (Otherwise what light would power it?) 

28 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Well, Plate makes the wearer faster, stronger, more agile and more durable. Pewter does the same to a Misting. 

This is where I get a snag in my understanding. Saying plate makes the wearer faster, stronger, more agile, and more durable and comparing it to pewter works... kind of. 

Pewter is an inanimate object that gets burned and the allomancers body is literally enhanced by it magically. 

Shardplate doesnt do anything to the user... it is just powerarmor that is powered by the user.

Yes there are plate users who feel a sense of power when in the suit but is it magic working through them like pewter or stormlight?  Pewter burning can be seen in the eyes (I believe the scene where vin pops that dudes head she mentions seeing it in his eyes). Stormlight is seen in the radiants eyes. These are powers that swell from within the user and make them stronger faster and more durable. 

All of that is the same for the plate but not the wearer underneath it. The power of plate comes from the spren. It is the spren fueled with magic and they encase their shardbearer in a way that allows that shardbearer to direct that power where they want. The shardbearer isnt actively infused by the power though. Its not that the shardbearer suddenly gets strong enough to lift the plate... its that the plate is powered by investiture and lifts itself in enhanced ways at the shardbearers command, that command being movement.  

 

[Treamayne]

46 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

All of that is the same for the plate but not the wearer underneath it.

That cannot be the case, otherwise a Shardbearer could not have enhanced reflexes - the plate is not moving itself. For a Shardbearer (dead/Unoathed) in plate to possibly have increased reflexes means that the plate itself is sharing investiture with the wearer (hence their feeling of energy) to allow the mind and muscles to react. In fact, the shared investiture has to also make their muscles stronger, or they could not even take a step in tonnes of metal (there are no gears or pistons moving the greaves and boots - the magic of the plate is making them strong enough to move the armor and function inside of it). 

• Pewter is a metal whose molecular sctructure opens a tiny gate to the Spiritual Realm, allowing Preservation's investiture to suffuse the Misting. The shape of that molecular structure defines the effect the investiture creates upon entering the Physical Realm - in this case it increases strength, agility, poise, reflexes, durability, etc.
• Shardplate is investiture infused armour that suffuses the wearer in Light. The plate itself is the filter causing the light's effect to increase the wearer's strength, agility, poise, reflexes, durability, etc.
• Compare also that an Elantrian (non-Reod) has increased strength, agility, poise, reflexes, durability, etc. because their body is suffused  with the Dor. 

These are Cosmere Constants that have slight changes in application based on source investiture and method of access - but are none-the-less working on the same base principals (like how [fabrial spoilers] the metals used in a fabrial cage work from the same principals as their allomantic effect).

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

Quote

Lyndsey Luther

My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between AonDor [the magic system from Elantris] and Allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful.

Open The Fridge Interview (Nov. 16, 2011)

 

Hope that helps

Edited January 4 by Treamayne
SPAG

[DoctaDajman]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That cannot be the case, otherwise a Shardbearer could not have enhanced reflexes - the plate is not moving itself. For a Shardbearer (dead/Unoathed) in plate to possibly have increased reflexes means that the plate itself is sharing investiture with the wearer (hence their feeling of energy) to allow the mind and muslces to react. In fact, the shared investiture has to also make their muscles stronger, or they could not even take a step in tonneds of metal (there are no gears or pistons mmoving the greaves adn boots - the magic of the plate is making them strong enough to move the armor and function inside of it). 

• Pwerter is a metal whose molecular sctructure opens a tiny gate to the Spiritual Realm, allowing Preservation's investiture to suffuse the Misting. The shape of that mlecular structure defines the effect the investiture creates upon entering the Physical Realm - in this case it increases strength, agility, poise, reflexes, durability, etc.
• Shardplate is investiture infused armour that suffuses the wearer in Light. The plate itself is the filter causeing the light's effect to increase the wearer's strength, agility, poise, reflexes, durability, etc.
• Compare also that an Elantrian (non-Reod) has increased strength, agility, poise, reflexes, durability, etc. because their body is suffused  with the Dor. 

These are Cosmere Constants that have slight changes in application based on source investiture and method of access - but are none-the-less working on the same base principals (like how [fabrial spoilers] the metals used in a fabrial cage work from the same principals as their allomantic effect).

WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hope that helps

So I was always under the impression that Plate would completely override allomantic pewter. But if the plate is actually enhancing the shardbearer themselves and not the plate doing the work for them, then wouldn't the use of other investiture amplify the effects more?  

Would a pewterarm, or a pewter / steel ferring then increase the effectiveness of the plate?  A kandra with the blessing of potency, already doesnt tire. Would they gain more from plate and be plate on steroids?  

I have to ask a lot of questions now because this takes my whole understanding of plate and flips it upside down. My mind must move to other possibilities. 

If the plate is able to press stormlight effects into its user could the user push their own invested arts into the plate? Could the spren with an open connection powering the shardbearer be fed feruchemical gold to heal a portion of plate up?  Or would tapping steel lend the plate a portion of speed enough to keep up with the user?  

I always looked at plate as a massive standing suit of armor that was powered by investiture much like awakening. No pistons needed for movement as seen by Kalads phantoms. The investiture is enough to power joints and movement). The idea that plate enhances the user to have the benefits of plate is kind of bonkers. From 5 gems alone too. But I'll take it.

If the shardbearers physical capacity is important enough to need to be enhanced by plate for plate to work then why wouldnt an already enhanced being be able to stack their benefits? 

[Returned he/him]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

That cannot be the case, otherwise a Shardbearer could not have enhanced reflexes - the plate is not moving itself. For a Shardbearer (dead/Unoathed) in plate to possibly have increased reflexes means that the plate itself is sharing investiture with the wearer (hence their feeling of energy) to allow the mind and muscles to react. In fact, the shared investiture has to also make their muscles stronger, or they could not even take a step in tonnes of metal (there are no gears or pistons moving the greaves and boots - the magic of the plate is making them strong enough to move the armor and function inside of it). 

I've always thought that the enhanced reflexes aspect of Plate is another feature of the powered-armor style amplification. Like, the Plate perfectly responds to motion of the body inside of it but lends its own power (strength, speed) to the motion. So the enhanced reflexes are just the Plate adding speed and responsiveness to an otherwise normal reflex action. If someone throws a rock at my face, and I'm not in Plate, my movement might not be fast enough to get my hand in place to catch it. But if I am wearing Plate then the armor amplifies the speed of my arm and hand motion, possibly getting in position in time. The feeling of energy I read as being more psychological, like how some people feel powerful when driving a big truck or holding a weapon. Maybe I'm mistaken on these, though.

I'd also imagined that the ability to move in Plate is related to the magic of the Plate, amplifying strength in the same way. As evidence, I submit Adolin's paired disadvantaged duel in WoR. Even when the Plate is completely drained of Stormlight (so, no magic to transfer to its wearer nor power the Plate itself), the fighters can still move, though with great difficulty. We know that dead Plate has to be put on from the boots up, so that the lower parts can bear the weight of the parts above, so taking a step only requires the wearer to lift the weight of one leg at a time (the rest of the weight is borne by the remaining armor on the leg still on the ground). What the magic does is allow the amplification of motion and, possibly, force. In contrast, Renarin and Moash don't seem to have any extra ability to manage their Plate when they first wear it, suggesting that they do not have pewter-like enhancements. Of course it's also possible that they do but are still not skilled enough to handle Plate's power.

Edited correction (the post has already been quoted, so I won't change the original contents):

When the Plate is fully drained it's essentially impossible to move in, as was the case when Adolin's Plate was fully drained and it locked up. I don't know that this is because it's too heavy or if it's because the Plate itself resists motion. But when one of the opponents had his breastplate broken he could still move, though it was very difficult for him. I read that as the loss of the breastplate interrupting the continuous transfer of weight from the head, shoulders, and arms through the breastplate and into the leg armor but now I'm not as sure.

Edited January 4 by Returned

[DoctaDajman]

10 minutes ago, Returned said:

I've always thought that the enhanced reflexes aspect of Plate is another feature of the powered-armor style amplification. Like, the Plate perfectly responds to motion of the body inside of it but lends its own power (strength, speed) to the motion. So the enhanced reflexes are just the Plate adding speed and responsiveness to an otherwise normal reflex action. If someone throws a rock at my face, and I'm not in Plate, my movement might not be fast enough to get my hand in place to catch it. But if I am wearing Plate then the armor amplifies the speed of my arm and hand motion, possibly getting in position in time. The feeling of energy I read as being more psychological, like how some people feel powerful when driving a big truck or holding a weapon. Maybe I'm mistaken on these, though.

I'd also imagined that the ability to move in Plate is related to the magic of the Plate, amplifying strength in the same way. As evidence, I submit Adolin's paired disadvantaged duel in WoR. Even when the Plate is completely drained of Stormlight (so, no magic to transfer to its wearer nor power the Plate itself), the fighters can still move, though with great difficulty. We know that dead Plate has to be put on from the boots up, so that the lower parts can bear the weight of the parts above, so taking a step only requires the wearer to lift the weight of one leg at a time (the rest of the weight is borne by the remaining armor on the leg still on the ground). What the magic does is allow the amplification of motion and, possibly, force. In contrast, Renarin and Moash don't seem to have any extra ability to manage their Plate when they first wear it, suggesting that they do not have pewter-like enhancements. Of course it's also possible that they do but are still not skilled enough to handle Plate's power.

This is a great way of summing up how I always pictured plate. Perhaps the energy is just the thrill and adrenaline. But the movements are made easy and light. People in plate last longer because they dont have to strain not because the plate makes them strong enough to move effortlessly with 1500lbs of metal on them. 

Why wouldnt the stormlight heal a user of plate if the plate was directly suffusing the user with stormlight. It doesnt add up. 

That is always why I question if the plate can hold up to a steel ferrings speed bumps. If the plate is already enhancing everything that the wearer does where is the upper limit there?  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 minute ago, DoctaDajman said:

Why wouldnt the stormlight heal a user of plate if the plate was directly suffusing the user with stormlight. It doesnt add up. 

I would assume it would be because the Plate has a specific "program" for the Investiture. 

Similar to how a Fabrial-Soulcaster is affected by Investiture (presumably, seeing as they become Savants with time, which is done by permeating oneself with Investiture) even without receiving a Radiant's general perks.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Returned said:

So the enhanced reflexes are just the Plate adding speed and responsiveness to an otherwise normal reflex action.

To be clear, when I say "refelxes" - compare to Warbreaker Ch 55:

Spoiler

An arrow snapped against the stone beside her, making her jump. Several guards below had bows.

Colors! she thought, pulling herself up to the next block. She heard a whoosh behind her, and cringed, feeling as if she should have been struck, but nothing happened. She pulled herself up onto the block, then twisted around.

She could just barely see a corner of her cloak holding an arrow. She started, grateful that she had Awakened it. It dropped the arrow, then returned to normal.

Handy, that, she thought

With awakening, the Awakened Type III Biochromatic Entity has a form of LifeSense to interpret the world around it and react. Shardplate does not. The reflexes being expressed must come from the Shardbearer, who (in dead plate) with limited visibility is still reacting in preternatural ways to the environment. The plate must be enhancing the Bearer's body somehow to attain this affect. Of course, if you see a rock thrown and the only LimFac is the speed to move your hand enough to intercept - that is (to me) enhanced speed, not enhanced reflexes. It's like the difference between F-Steel and F-Zinc - Sazed needed both to react to Marsh in the basement of Kredik Shaw. 

Is the Plate enhancing the bearer as much as, or in the same way as Pewter? No. Could the two effects stack? Unlikely (investiture interferes with investiture, just like Szeth (AIW) could not Lash somebody if either of them were wearing plate). Is the whole effect of investiture only in the Plate? Unlikely - there are too many effects that don't make sense with the known data - unless - the plate has Lifesense and reacts on it's own | or the bearer is at least partially being augmented as well. 

[DoctaDajman]

24 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

To be clear, when I say "refelxes" - compare to Warbreaker Ch 55:

  Hide contents

An arrow snapped against the stone beside her, making her jump. Several guards below had bows.

Colors! she thought, pulling herself up to the next block. She heard a whoosh behind her, and cringed, feeling as if she should have been struck, but nothing happened. She pulled herself up onto the block, then twisted around.

She could just barely see a corner of her cloak holding an arrow. She started, grateful that she had Awakened it. It dropped the arrow, then returned to normal.

Handy, that, she thought

With awakening, the Awakened Type III Biochromatic Entity has a form of LifeSense to interpret the world around it and react. Shardplate does not. The reflexes being expressed must come from the Shardbearer, who (in dead plate) with limited visibility is still reacting in preternatural ways to the environment. The plate must be enhancing the Bearer's body somehow to attain this affect. Of course, if you see a rock thrown and the only LimFac is the speed to move your hand enough to intercept - that is (to me) enhanced speed, not enhanced reflexes. It's like the difference between F-Steel and F-Zinc - Sazed needed both to react to Marsh in the basement of Kredik Shaw. 

Is the Plate enhancing the bearer as much as, or in the same way as Pewter? No. Could the two effects stack? Unlikely (investiture interferes with investiture, just like Szeth (AIW) could not Lash somebody if either of them were wearing plate). Is the whole effect of investiture only in the Plate? Unlikely - there are too many effects that don't make sense with the known data - unless - the plate has Lifesense and reacts on it's own | or the bearer is at least partially being augmented as well. 

Do you think pewter burner could run the plate and in a way spare the stormlight while doing so to keep the plate healing and working longer?