Kaladin vs Vasher

[DoctaDajman]

So Zahel vs Kaladin was one of my favorite little sparring sessions to ever read but I wonder how that would have ended if they really wanted eachother dead. 

I know this is a weird vs battle and its really not a Vasher vs Kaladin in that way but more a question about awakening and how to deal with the mechanics... 

Kaladin was able to cut the awakened straps holding him but how well would that strat work if they were wrapped around his neck? 

How strong are awakened cloths and ropes? It takes a lot to break even thin rope far beyond normal human capabilities. 

As I look at RPG mechanics I wonder how do you balance a character where you can create multiple ropes to slither up and around your enemies and constrict them to death? If Vasher lands a sash on an enemy and it quickly slithers to wrap up around their neck how do they deal with it? How do you even fit your fingers under a sash that is squeezing for all of its tensile strength worth? 

How quick does strangulation drain healing while a person is wrestling and trying to stop other sashes from tying them up as well?  

Love Kal but I think he would have been a dead radiant pretty quick if Zahel decided it was really go time. Even if he killed Zahel the ribbons wrapped around his neck would likely be permanent accessories until he ran out of stormlight in my opinion. 

Why did the awakeners in Warbreaker not highlight this strat more?  

 

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

How strong are awakened cloths and ropes? It takes a lot to break even thin rope far beyond normal human capabilities. 

Stronger than the material itself should, but how much is unknown. 
Additionally, how much of force they can exert is also unknown. 

Both likely scale somewhat with amount of Breath used to Invest it.

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

As I look at RPG mechanics I wonder how do you balance a character where you can create multiple ropes to slither up and around your enemies and constrict them to death? If Vasher lands a sash on an enemy and it quickly slithers to wrap up around their neck how do they deal with it? How do you even fit your fingers under a sash that is squeezing for all of its tensile strength worth? 

That is likely a good wincon, if Zahel stays far. 
Slashing something wrapped around your neck is generally not easy to do.

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How quick does strangulation drain healing while a person is wrestling and trying to stop other sashes from tying them up as well?  

Regular person, or Radiant? 
Regular person would likely be out of commission in 10 seconds or so.
Radiant would be fine so long as they have Stormlight, so likely minutes to hours. As we see from Kaladin, single pouch of spheres can heal having his spine cut repeatedly while still fighting, and still having Stormlight left.

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Love Kal but I think he would have been a dead radiant pretty quick if Zahel decided it was really go time. Even if he killed Zahel the ribbons wrapped around his neck would likely be permanent accessories until he ran out of stormlight in my opinion. 

Zahel was also fighting with three advantages, sheets everywhere,  the fact Kal didn't know Zahel is Invested, much less what Awakening is and can do, and the fact that Kaladin has centuries less experience with his powers.

Prepared Kaladin would likely be able to defeat Zahel, even without Shardplate, as he can keep distance and use Reverse Lashing to trap either the sheets or Zahel.
With Plate, it would not even be a fight.

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Why did the awakeners in Warbreaker not highlight this strat more?  

Likely because it is more difficult than it looks? 
Zahel does have several centuries of experience, and is one of pre-eminent scholars on Awakening, not your ordinary Awakener.

[DoctaDajman]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Stronger than the material itself should, but how much is unknown. 
Additionally, how much of force they can exert is also unknown. 

Both likely scale somewhat with amount of Breath used to Invest it.

This is a good point and one I haven't thought a ton about. I always assumed that an awakened object would have its strength governed by the strength of the material that was being awakened. A 1 inch thick rope would be far better at holding an object than a 1/4 inch rope. 

Perhaps that is the wrong way of thinking about it though. Perhaps the 1 inch rope is stronger in that it is harder to cut or destroy but its strength in lifting and holding things is determined by the breaths and not the rope material itself.

If I want a 25 lb weight picked up by ropes it may be that the breaths have more to do with whether that weight can be picked up than the size of rope. Perhaps 200 breaths limit each rope to the same 200lb max lift? 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Regular person, or Radiant? 
Regular person would likely be out of commission in 10 seconds or so.
Radiant would be fine so long as they have Stormlight, so likely minutes to hours. As we see from Kaladin, single pouch of spheres can heal having his spine cut repeatedly while still fighting, and still having Stormlight left.

I do remember Wayne fighting Not Wayne and choking her mentioning that it drains gold metalminds faster than you would expect. I dont think he was maintaining that choke for 10 seconds before it started happening. Once that blood supply is cutoff to the brain you can put someone out in a matter of a couple of seconds. The rear naked choke is terrifying. I imagine a rope around the neck would be absolutely devastating. A thick rope would build the pressure so fast like thick arms. A thin rope would be like a garrote.  

How well would stormlight fix that pressure as it builds up and blood flow is hindered. How likely is someone, even with healing, going to be to ignore that and not instinctively try to get that pressure down and relieve that squeeze.  

Not that a radiant couldn't ignore it and focus on the task at hand, but I personally think the sensation of being choked would make 99% of people even with healing try to get that rope off. 

Getting sliced through the spine is a fast high damage attack and that blade is gone and you can heal and all discomfort is over as quick as it started. 

This would be a constant constriction and blockage of blood flow to the brain. All of the blood that is there would still be trapped there. Maybe the healing makes it like it wasn't happening but Wayne's encounter seems to tell a slightly different tale. 

[therunner he/him]

20 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I do remember Wayne fighting Not Wayne and choking her mentioning that it drains gold metalminds faster than you would expect.

...

This would be a constant constriction and blockage of blood flow to the brain. All of the blood that is there would still be trapped there. Maybe the healing makes it like it wasn't happening but Wayne's encounter seems to tell a slightly different tale. 

Radiants heal more akin to Gold Compounder than just straight Ferring though. 

Kaladin healed shattered legs fast enough no one even noticed they broke.
Shallan literally walked off crossbow bolt in the head, something that would likely be far more difficult to heal for Ferring.

Restricted blood flow to brain will cause less damage than a crossbow bolt through brain.

And Jasnah fought in fully sealed Shardplate for hours, and it opened up only when started running out of Stormlight. 


So I think Radiants will certainly hold out minutes.

 

[DoctaDajman]

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

Radiants heal more akin to Gold Compounder than just straight Ferring though. 

Kaladin healed shattered legs fast enough no one even noticed they broke.
Shallan literally walked off crossbow bolt in the head, something that would likely be far more difficult to heal for Ferring.

Restricted blood flow to brain will cause less damage than a crossbow bolt through brain.

And Jasnah fought in fully sealed Shardplate for hours, and it opened up only when started running out of Stormlight. 


So I think Radiants will certainly hold out minutes.

 

I am not saying they wont hold out. I'm saying there is a difference between the mechanism of injury. A quick trauma that you heal through and move on is different than a sustained issue. Which is what Wayne was pointing out in that scene. Its easier to heal through a bullet wound than being choked. Eventually the body needs to address the cause of the hypoxia, in this case a magically motivated and strengthened rope obstructing all blood flow to the brain.

All a stroke is is a lack of oxygen rich blood to the brain tissue whether through a clot or a big bleed. This is a massive ongoing stroke but the occlusion is in your carotid arteries.  

Can stormlight heal that? Sure... but a stroke makes you just as dead as a bolt through the head. Only it is a life threatening amount of damage every second that is being healed through until the damage stops. 

This isnt comparable to shattering both legs and healing them and moving on. Its healing both shattered legs and then they get shattered again and again and again every few seconds. 

If you would blackout in 2-3 seconds for the lack of blood flow your stormlight or gold needs to heal that much every 2-3 seconds until you address the issue. 

A bolt in the brain is tough but once it is removed then the healing can happen and be done with.

Like a boat with a hole in it. You are desperately trying to get out of a whirlpool that will take you under. If you keep paddling you may get out of the whirlpool but will you have taken on too much water and sink anyway? Or do you plug the hole and then start paddling again? 

Of course plate negates the entire discussion. Though that is a question on its own.  

I imagine tangling plate up and trying to tie it down is a legit strategy to stop the progress of a shardbearer. 

If you had enough guys yoinking on ropes there may even be enough strength there to stop the plate from operating. 

If you took the same ropes capable of snaring up a shardbearer with 10 or 20 men holding onto it... would awakening on its own provide the same ropes the strength needed to tie up the shardbearer or would the shardplate have enoigh strength to push past what the awakened ropes can hold?  

Kind of comes back to that question of: Is awakened rope granted strength by the rope itself or by the amount of breaths? Would 200 breaths into dentalfloss be capable of lifting the same weight as 200 breaths of inch thick rope only fail when rhe dental floss fails instead of the breaths?  

Not sure if we have many answers to that. 

 

[Frustration]

Radiants don't breathe while holding stormlight. They don't need blood flow to their brain.

 

Hunting down Zahel, who has centuries of experience would be difficult, but as  WaT shows not impossible. I honestly think that cutting the rope from off of their neck aftet the fight would be the most difficult part, but you just grab a normal knife and should be able to cut it just fine.

[Returned he/him]

I think that this matchup is similar to the Kelsier-Kaladin fight, which per WoB Kelsier would win. I think that Vasher is likely to win for similar reasons as Kelsier. Both Kaladin and Vasher are excellent fighters, far above most people. But Vasher is more experienced by far, with centuries of practice and trial-by-fire fights for his life beyond what Kaladin has experienced. Vasher is also craftier, which helps him both come up with tricks to give him an edge against Kaladin and a better chance of understanding in real time any tricks Kaladin might come up with. Finally, I think we have a much better idea of the limits of Kaladin's Surgebinding powers than we do Vasher's ability to use Breaths. That means that I see more potential upside and unforeseen tactics from Vasher than from Kaladin.

I see it being a brutal fight for both combatants, though.

[DoctaDajman]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Radiants don't breathe while holding stormlight. They don't need blood flow to their brain.

The fact that they dont breathe is a good point. But I am not entirely convinced that means they no longer need cellular respiration. And what of the increased intracranial pressure.

Sure these things will be healed through but I fear we are crossing from "stormlight heals" to "stormlight makes it so your body doesnt need to function at all and thus needs no healing".

Does their body have no need for circulation at all while stormlight is held? Why then would it use any stormlight at all to heal any wound? The stormlight negates the need for homeostasis at all? What of the damage being done to the neck throat and spine while being constricted? 

When using the hopper popper or broomstick method of dispatching rabbits their eyes get nice and bulging from the increased pressures. Same with people who hang themselves. There is always some more damage than just the hypoxia as well. 

Where does the line for stormlight removing the need for bodily function and healing get draw? 

ECMO removes the need for breathing but not necessarily at the celular level. 

Does a radiant give up needing to have their heart circulate at all while holding stormlight? It replaces all bodily functions?

Would stormlight attempt to heal the coagulating massive blood clots that will form with a lack of circulation? 

Do we have any WOBs that state the need for circulation at all is removed by stormlight the same way the need for breathing itself is removed?  

I mean I get what your saying. I have long had issues with stormlights healing and it is well documented that it is my #1 reason for disliking that series. You and the dang Unoathed post got me stoked for a part of Roshar again and my curiosities about Awakened ropes squeezing someone's neck till their eyes pop out of their sockets has got me hating stormlight again haha. 

 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

The fact that they dont breathe is a good point. But I am not entirely convinced that means they no longer need cellular respiration. And what of the increased intracranial pressure.

Sure these things will be healed through but I fear we are crossing from "stormlight heals" to "stormlight makes it so your body doesnt need to function at all and thus needs no healing".

Does their body have no need for circulation at all while stormlight is held? Why then would it use any stormlight at all to heal any wound? The stormlight negates the need for homeostasis at all? What of the damage being done to the neck throat and spine while being constricted? 

When using the hopper popper or broomstick method of dispatching rabbits their eyes get nice and bulging from the increased pressures. Same with people who hang themselves. There is always some more damage than just the hypoxia as well. 

Where does the line for stormlight removing the need for bodily function and healing get draw? 

ECMO removes the need for breathing but not necessarily at the celular level. 

Does a radiant give up needing to have their heart circulate at all while holding stormlight? It replaces all bodily functions?

Would stormlight attempt to heal the coagulating massive blood clots that will form with a lack of circulation? 

Do we have any WOBs that state the need for circulation at all is removed by stormlight the same way the need for breathing itself is removed?  

I mean I get what your saying. I have long had issues with stormlights healing and it is well documented that it is my #1 reason for disliking that series. You and the dang Unoathed post got me stoked for a part of Roshar again and my curiosities about Awakened ropes squeezing someone's neck till their eyes pop out of their sockets has got me hating stormlight again haha. 

 

I too hate Stormlight being OP.

 

As to specific healing questions I don't have solid answers I'm afraid but I do know the following:

1. Radiants don't need to exhale while holding stormlight.

2. The human breath reflex is driven by the presence of CO2 not the lack of 02.

3. It requires hundreds of times less energy to provide the energy that cellular respiration would provide than to create the oxygen atoms needed to serve as the electron receptors at the end of cellular respiration.

 

Bases on these facts I believe that the most logical explanation is that while holding stormlight Radiants do not need cellular respiration.

Now as for blood clots, cranial pressure and other injuries: no clue. I know they can be healed and probably don't require a lot of stormlight to do so.

Edited December 26, 2025 by Frustration

[therunner he/him]

15 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

I am not saying they wont hold out. I'm saying there is a difference between the mechanism of injury. A quick trauma that you heal through and move on is different than a sustained issue. Which is what Wayne was pointing out in that scene. Its easier to heal through a bullet wound than being choked. Eventually the body needs to address the cause of the hypoxia, in this case a magically motivated and strengthened rope obstructing all blood flow to the brain.

A bolt in the brain is tough but once it is removed then the healing can happen and be done with

Point is Shallan was conscious and remained functional even with the bolt in brain, which is more damage than most strokes could do. So Stormlight keep you functioning despite the damage to some extent.

Combined with what Frustration pointed out about breathing, and Jasnahs fight in RoW, I think it is quite clear that just choking is not going to do much to Radiant so long as they have Stormlight.

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If you took the same ropes capable of snaring up a shardbearer with 10 or 20 men holding onto it... would awakening on its own provide the same ropes the strength needed to tie up the shardbearer or would the shardplate have enoigh strength to push past what the awakened ropes can hold?  

Kind of comes back to that question of: Is awakened rope granted strength by the rope itself or by the amount of breaths? Would 200 breaths into dentalfloss be capable of lifting the same weight as 200 breaths of inch thick rope only fail when rhe dental floss fails instead of the breaths?  

Not sure if we have many answers to that. 

Yeah, I don't think we know enough to say one way or the other. 

I do think that there is some level of Investment where the ropes could hold Shardplate, though what level that is is open question. 

Additional question is, could living Plate reform to e.g. have shard edges on outside to cut the ropes as they try to hold it? That would also influence the strategy quite a bit.

10 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Sure these things will be healed through but I fear we are crossing from "stormlight heals" to "stormlight makes it so your body doesnt need to function at all and thus needs no healing".

...

Do we have any WOBs that state the need for circulation at all is removed by stormlight the same way the need for breathing itself is removed?  

As Stormlight seems to be one of the most powerful healing methods (especially for higher Oath radiants) it is likely that Stormlight can supply anything the body needs to keep functions, at increasing cost of Stormlight

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Logic_Nuke

Could decapitation kill a Gold Compounder? With a guillotine, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Most forms of extreme cosmere healing don't care much what is done to the physical body, as the person's spiritual template is in power at the time.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

 

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I mean I get what your saying. I have long had issues with stormlights healing and it is well documented that it is my #1 reason for disliking that series. You and the dang Unoathed post got me stoked for a part of Roshar again and my curiosities about Awakened ropes squeezing someone's neck till their eyes pop out of their sockets has got me hating stormlight again haha. 

Basically, for anyone with OP healing in Cosmere you have three options:

1. Block their healing somehow (e.g. suppresion fabrials for Radiants, block the Connection for Compounders)
2. Massive enough damage to fully kill the person before they can heal (e.g. vaporize them, Shardblade to spine/brain, etc.)
3. Inhibit them without doing damage (i.e. tie them up, use painrial)

So for Zahel better option (and one he did go for) would be to tie the Radiant up so they cannot move.

Apparently good way around Cosmere healing is e.g. tasers as they 'just' cause muscle contraction, and so are not damage to be healed

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ShadowBlaze

If a gold Ferring got electrocuted, would he get paralyzed and/or heal and react normally?

Brandon Sanderson

So he gets electrocuted. You're asking does Cosmere healing prevent you from being stunned by a taser?

Huh, what a good question. I'm going to say, and I could contradict this, so this is Word of Brandon canon until I contradict it, you could still stun them with electrical stimulation of muscles, because it's not doing any harm and it's just how muscles normally work. So I think that's a good workaround.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

He didn't contradict it so far, and I really hope it sticks because it is nice way of evening the playing field with progressing technology.

Edited December 27, 2025 by therunner