Spren Crossing the Realms

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Moogle and I were having a discussion regarding Spren after getting off topic in a thread about Nightblood...So I'm making this post to move the SA discussion out of Warbreaker's forum. Though it doesn't need to be said in this forum, spoilers ahead!

 

My theory is this:

 

Spren, though more specifically Radiant spren, do not fully move from the Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm. Instead, they're bodies are anchored in the Cognitive Realm, and they "stretch the void" to also appear in the Physical Realm. This is supported by a few scenes in WoR.

 

First, Shallan soulcasting on the ship. Here, she travels to Shadesmar to convince the ship to sink. In this scene, Pattern is in the Physical Realm as his usual...ball...of squiggles. Upon arriving in Shadesmar, it turns out that Pattern has a full and developed body, of which the "ball" is merely his "face". This supports my claim that the Radiant Spren are anchored in the Cognitive Realm, as Pattern's much more developed body resides in Shadesmar.

 

Second, Shallan attempting to soulcast fire on the beach. Here, she travels into Shadesmar, but rather than fully travelling as before, Shallan attempts, and succeeds, in only partially making the transition. Once again, Pattern is in Shadesmar in his developed body. More importantly, though, Pattern is also in the Physical Realm on Roshar. Both Pattern and Shallan are in both the Cognitive and Physical Realms, at the same time. This then supports the claim that the Radiant Spren "stretch the void." More importantly, when combined with the first scene, and the fact that Pattern's Physical Realm body is much less detailed and developed than his Cognitive Realm, the conclusion that they are anchored and "stretch the void" does not seem so ridiculous. 

 

Lastly, all the scenes in which Kaladin reflects on how Syl has a tangible presence in the Physical Realm, but cannot exert much force. If I recall correctly (I do not actually own WoR to pull quotes for any of these scenes), Syl's strongest force exerted is when she causes a slight breeze. She also has a very light weight whenever she situates herself on Kaladin. This further convinced me that they "stretch the void", for if they were fully moving to the Physical Realm, I would think they would be more tangible.

 

In my discussion with Moogle, we were also discussing the nature of shardblades and why they disappear/where they disappear to. My first thought was that they disappear to the Cognitive Realm, as since the spren's bodies are anchored in the Cognitive Realm, when they die, their bodies can no longer support the "muscles" that allow them to "stretch the void." This would be similar to how, if you are holding a pen when you die, post death you can no longer work your muscles, and you inevitable drop the pen. The shardblade's owner, then, can cause the dead spren to "stretch the void" and appear in the Physical Realm as a shardblade.

 

I then realized, though, that upon the shardbearer's death, then, the spren should revert back to the Cognitive Realm, and as such the shardblade would not be there for a new individual to bond with it.

 

That's the extent of the conversation so far. Feel free to chime in!

[Divine0Flame he/him]

Is it possible that when the barrer dies, the dead spren feeds on the wielders innert breath (for lack of a better term) to exist in the state of neutrality?

[Oudeis he/him]

Your argument seems to presuppose that things only exist in one realm at a time under normal circumstances. Don't we know that to be the opposite of the truth? All things have a physical aspect, a cognitive aspect, and a spiritual aspect. "You" are the combination of all things. "You" are no more merely your physical aspect than "you" are merely your torso, distinct from your arms and legs. You can refer to any one of them at a time, they have different properties, just like your hands are not your feet, but the totality of you is your whole body, and all three aspects.

[Divine0Flame he/him]

Ok, ok I see where your going with that, but the cryptics and honor spren seem to only inhabit the cognitive, untill one they are willing to bond with shows up (speculation, no WoB).

WoR spoiler

Also when jasna was stabed she left the physical world.

This makes me think shardblades are only kept out of the physical world thru shear will of the barer, and then when tha barer dies the blade reverts to its normal form.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Rubix
Fixed Spoiler Tag

[Oudeis he/him]

Please leave stuff from spoiler chapters behind a spoiler tag.

[Divine0Flame he/him]

How!

[Oudeis he/him]

{spoiler}

There are two brackets, just above your enter key. I will type them with shift key applied, but look for that symbol, and press the key for the symbol without shift.

{/spoiler}

 

Just like that, but without the shift key applied.

 

Also, it's typically courteous to add something before hand to let people know what it is you're spoiling; in this case, before you typed the "spoiler" command, you could have said, "SA3".

Edited November 7, 2014 by Outis

[Divine0Flame he/him]

Thanks.

Rubix you rock.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Divine0flame

[Twenty@20 he/him]

This topic sounds interesting. I always kind of thought the shardblades as the physical body of the sprens and the Radiant- spren bond to exist at a spiritual level. This spiritual bond allows the Radiants to manipulate the Surges in the Spiritual realm with the help of investiture from stormlight. (This is pure speculation on my part based on the AA which describes a spiritual element in both Basic Lashing and Lightweaving)

While all non-living physical objects manifest in cognitive realm as partly sentient spheres, minds of living beings exist as (? sentient) flames and ideas and feelings manifest there as sentient spren. While souls of living beings exist in the spiritual realm, what aspect of spren/ ideas & feelings can be found in spiritual realm? I think the force/ energy aspect of spren exists there.(Syl calls herself a force in WoR.The rest again speculation on my part.)

Building further from this, I think that the Radiant- spren bond develops in Spiritual realm as a connection between the soul of the Radiant and the force/ energy of the spren/ idea. The Radiant uses the spren's energy to manipulate the surges in spiritual realm while the spren uses the Radiant's mind to become sentient in the Physical realm.

Now for my final hunch. Shardblades are the conversion of spiritual energy of spren into physical matter. This obeys first law of thermodynamics. (Brandon is very conscious of it).

"Then they live again a little when someone summons them, syncing a heartbeat to their essence"

This leads me to ask what is a spren's essense. I think the essense of a spren is its spiritual energy. What this quote means is that a temporary bonding between the shardholder's soul and the dead spren's energy causes it to phase into the physical shardblade.

The honourblades can also be explained by this theory. These blades are created out of pure energy in the spiritual realm. bonding with a honourblade not only allows manipulation of the surges in spiritual realm but also allows the blades to phase between matter and energy in the two realms.

wow . My brain feels like mush after all this heavy theorising. I will repeat again most of it is speculation. so feel free to rip it apart.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Divine0Flame he/him]

If the heart beat syncing brings the blade to bear, why does it stay in, or come back to, the physical realm when the shard holder dies?

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Your argument seems to presuppose that things only exist in one realm at a time under normal circumstances. Don't we know that to be the opposite of the truth? All things have a physical aspect, a cognitive aspect, and a spiritual aspect. "You" are the combination of all things. "You" are no more merely your physical aspect than "you" are merely your torso, distinct from your arms and legs. You can refer to any one of them at a time, they have different properties, just like your hands are not your feet, but the totality of you is your whole body, and all three aspects.

 

We know that everything has a Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual aspect, but I do not think everything exists in all three realms at the same time. In WoR we have statements by both Syl and Pattern, if memory serves, that Spren live in the Cognitive Realm, and only a few ever make the decision to manifest in the Physical Realm. Once again, I do not own the book, so I cannot quote it.

 

The example that comes to mind is Shallan soulcasting on the boat:

After she travels to Shadesmar, she is on land. I forget her description of the land, but she is on land, and not on a boat, or in a cabin, or even a room of any kind. This shows that the ship does not exist in both realms simultaneously. Moreover, if the humans outside her room existed in both realms simultaneously, she should have seen them, in some way/form, but I do not recall her making any mention of it, implying she did not see them either.

 

Please leave stuff from spoiler chapters behind a spoiler tag.

 

Though adding spoiler tags is a courtesy that should be given, we are in the Cosmere Theories subforum, and so they are, by the rules, not necessary.

 

This topic sounds interesting. I always kind of thought the shardblades as the physical body of the sprens and the Radiant- spren bond to exist at a spiritual level. This spiritual bond allows the Radiants to manipulate the Surges in the Spiritual realm with the help of investiture from stormlight. (This is pure speculation on my part based on the AA which describes a spiritual element in both Basic Lashing and Lightweaving)

While all non-living physical objects manifest in cognitive realm as partly sentient spheres, minds of living beings exist as (? sentient) flames and ideas and feelings manifest there as sentient spren. While souls of living beings exist in the spiritual realm, what aspect of spren/ ideas & feelings can be found in spiritual realm? I think the force/ energy aspect of spren exists there.(Syl calls herself a force in WoR.The rest again speculation on my part.)

Building further from this, I think that the Radiant- spren bond develops in Spiritual realm as a connection between the soul of the Radiant and the force/ energy of the spren/ idea. The Radiant uses the spren's energy to manipulate the surges in spiritual realm while the spren uses the Radiant's mind to become sentient in the Physical realm.

Now for my final hunch. Shardblades are the conversion of spiritual energy of spren into physical matter. This obeys first law of thermodynamics. (Brandon is very conscious of it).

This leads me to ask what is a spren's essense. I think the essense of a spren is its spiritual energy. What this quote means is that a temporary bonding between the shardholder's soul and the dead spren's energy causes it to phase into the physical shardblade.

The honourblades can also be explained by this theory. These blades are created out of pure energy in the spiritual realm. bonding with a honourblade not only allows manipulation of the surges in spiritual realm but also allows the blades to phase between matter and energy in the two realms.

wow . My brain feels like mush after all this heavy theorising. I will repeat again most of it is speculation. so feel free to rip it apart.

 

The glaring problem with your theory, however, is our simple lack of knowledge of the Spiritual realm. It sounds good, but cannot really be proven or disproved until more is known. Do you have a quote/source for your second paragraph? The only other question I pose to you is, given your theory that the dead spren take their physical form again because they "feed" off their wielder's "essence," why do the blades form in the physical realm after the shardbearer dies?

 

If the heart beat syncing brings the blade to bear, why does it stay in, or come back to, the physical realm when the shard holder dies?

 

Gah, you beat me to it by a few minutes.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Blaze1616

[Twenty@20 he/him]

 

 

We know that everything has a Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual aspect, but I do not think everything exists in all three realms at the same time. In WoR we have statements by both Syl and Pattern, if memory serves, that Spren live in the Cognitive Realm, and only a few ever make the decision to manifest in the Physical Realm. Once again, I do not own the book, so I cannot quote it.

 

The example that comes to mind is Shallan soulcasting on the boat:

After she travels to Shadesmar, she is on land. I forget her description of the land, but she is on land, and not on a boat, or in a cabin, or even a room of any kind. This shows that the ship does not exist in both realms simultaneously. Moreover, if the humans outside her room existed in both realms simultaneously, she should have seen them, in some way/form, but I do not recall her making any mention of it, implying she did not see them either.

 

 

Though adding spoiler tags is a courtesy that should be given, we are in the Cosmere Theories subforum, and so they are, by the rules, not necessary.

 

 

The glaring problem with your theory, however, is our simple lack of knowledge of the Spiritual realm. It sounds good, but cannot really be proven or disproved until more is known. Do you have a quote/source for your second paragraph? The only other question I pose to you is, given your theory that the dead spren take their physical form again because they "feed" off their wielder's "essence," why do the blades form in the physical realm after the shardbearer dies?

 

 

 

Gah, you beat me to it by a few minutes.

 

The ship does have a cognitive manifestation in the form of a sphere. we saw in both Shallan and Jasnah PoV (WoR prologue) that all nonliving things manifest as sphere in Shadesmar. The way Shallan talks to the ship 'sphere' and the way it responds shows they are sentient. Also when Shallan is in shadesmar trying to soulcast the ship she notices candle flames corresponding to minds of the ship's passengers and even minds of fish. I believe we can be sure that for all living beings, their minds are represented in Cognitive and their Souls are represented in the Spiritual. Not so sure about non-living things having any aspect in the spiritual realm and whether all spren have a physical aspect.

 

Regarding the question why shardblades reappearin the physical realm I have no answer right now. This point kind of slipped out of my mind while I was theorising. Glad both you guys pointed it out. Let me think about it for sometime. Perhaps I can come up with some explanation. 

 

I agree we know very little about the spiritual realm. Thats why its is so fun theorising about it.   At the risk of sounding immodest, I was happy that I managed to tie up few point neatly with my theory.

[Divine0Flame he/him]

When the radients killed their spren, the swords were left, I think that makes that the form they remember and wish to emulate. I think that they are bonding to the spirit web of man when he holds the blade for the prerequisite week. Then they feel the bond (nahle?) again and want to emulate the relationship they had with their knight.

[Lumen]

Without the gems on the Shardblades -- don't the shards remain in the physical world?  I thought it was necessary to add the gems to get the dead-spren blades to bond enough that they could be dismissed (which they then automatically do when dropped).    When bonded dead-spren blades are dismissed, to what realm do they go?  If the cognitive realm, do they appear as "sleeping spren" floating in the ocean of the cognitive realm?

 

It does seem a bit counter-intuitive that when the bond to a dead-spren blade breaks (death, broken gem, or whatever) they come fully back to the physical, but if a live spren's bond breaks by death, they go back to the cognitive.  And that summoning a dead-spren blade is "awakening" them, since the same thing happens when the bond is broken.

[Oudeis he/him]

The way Shallan talks to the ship 'sphere' and the way it responds shows they are sentient.

 

I do not agree with this sentiment, any more than the fact that my dog knows to respond when I said the word "food" indicates that she is sentient, or the fact that a bee's dance conveys information means that bees are sentient.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I do not agree with this sentiment, any more than the fact that my dog knows to respond when I said the word "food" indicates that she is sentient, or the fact that a bee's dance conveys information means that bees are sentient.

 

I'll just step in a moment and prompt you guys to double-check that each knows what the other means when you say "sentient". It can grow rather unfortunate if the two parties mean different things.

 

So if Twenty is merely claiming that the ship is "able to perceive or feel things" at some level, then it would seem to me that s/he has a leg to stand on.

-Though it's an interesting question whether inanimate objects in the cosmere meet even this far-lower bar, or are just procedural responses...

 

*ahem*

 

If s/he's claiming that the ship is fully intelligent (the more common use of the word "sentient" and the one Outis seems to be using here), then that might be a different story.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Divine0Flame he/him]

@lumen

You bring up a fair point, and it is feasible that the gems investiture, or rather stormlight, is what allows the semi-bond to grow.

[Shardcellist]

@lumen

You bring up a fair point, and it is feasible that the gems investiture, or rather stormlight, is what allows the semi-bond to grow.

Note, however, that Stormlight is not necessary for the "bond effect," only the presence/attachment of a gem. This doesn't disprove the idea, but I feel that it is a point worth noting.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

I'll just step in a moment and prompt you guys to double-check that each knows what the other means when you say "sentient". It can grow rather unfortunate if the two parties mean different things.

So if Twenty is merely claiming that the ship is "able to perceive or feel things" at some level, then it would seem to me that s/he has a leg to stand on.

-Though it's an interesting question whether inanimate objects in the cosmere meet even this far-lower bar, or are just procedural response

Yup, that was the idea I was trying to convey. In my initial post I described them as "partly sentient" for lack of a better term Edited November 8, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Kurkistan he/him]

Yup, that was the idea I was trying to convey. In my initial post I described them as "partly sentient" for lack of a better term

 

And so crisis averted! Drinks all 'round! 

[Blaze1616 he/him]

The ship does have a cognitive manifestation in the form of a sphere. we saw in both Shallan and Jasnah PoV (WoR prologue) that all nonliving things manifest as sphere in Shadesmar. The way Shallan talks to the ship 'sphere' and the way it responds shows they are sentient. Also when Shallan is in shadesmar trying to soulcast the ship she notices candle flames corresponding to minds of the ship's passengers and even minds of fish. I believe we can be sure that for all living beings, their minds are represented in Cognitive and their Souls are represented in the Spiritual. Not so sure about non-living things having any aspect in the spiritual realm and whether all spren have a physical aspect.

 

Ah! Yes, I do recall those details now that you point them out. Sorry about that.

 

I'm still not completely convinced that the ship's sphere-like form is "sentient" in the way you've now defined it (thank you Kurkistan). From what we've seen of these objects' conciousness in the Cognitive realm, all they seem to know is their identity. When Shallan tries to argue, I do not recall the ship's responses being anything other than "I am a ship." No other counter arguments are given to Shallan's arguments. This makes me believe that this voice that the ship was given may merely be an identifier, like a label. If the ship says anything else, I'm afraid I must ask you to quote WoR again, and I apologize for that. The conversation with the Stick in the next Shallan chapter could also provide insight.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

She snatched it, and suddenly was given the impression of a ship.

The Wind’s Pleasure. A ship that had been cared for, loved. It had carried its passengers well for years and years, owned by Tozbek and his father before him. An old ship, but not ancient, still reliable. A proud ship. It manifested here as a sphere.

It could actually think. The ship could think. Or . . . well, it reflected the thoughts of the people who served on it, knew it, thought about it.

The ship seems to some limited feeling. Though it can be said that those feeling reflect that of the people it has been in contact for years.

“No,” the reply came, though it was Pattern who spoke. “No, I cannot. I must serve. I am happy.”

Shallan looked to him.

“I will intercede,” Pattern repeated. “. . . Translate. You are not ready.”

Shallan looked back to the bead in her hands. “I have Stormlight. Lots of it. I will give it to you.”

“No!” the reply seemed angry. “I serve.”

It really wanted to stay a ship. She could feel it, the pride it took, the reinforcement of years of service.

The ship here seems to feel happy, proud,then angry. We can argue that these feelings are limited or reflected from other sources but the ability to feel is what I am emphasizing.

“You can feel them dying. Their blood on your deck. One by one, the people you serve will be cut down.”

She could feel it herself, could see it in the ship.

The ship seems to be aware of its surroundings, of people dying. Then in response it decides to change.

So if we define sentient as ability to feel, to perceive then the ship sphere looks sentient.

To compare the ship and the stick, the ship had long years of contact with humans while the stick hardly had any. Perhaps that's why we see the difference between the cognitive aspect of the two.

[Moogle]

Regarding the idea of things not existing in the Three Realms, it seems readily apparent that most things do. The boat in the Physical has a presence in the Cognitive as a bead, and likely has something in the Spiritual. Humans have a spiritweb (Spiritual), physical body, and a mind (Cognitive).

 

However, this doesn't mean things can't be "concentrated" in one or more Realms relative to the others. There's plenty of WoBs discussing whether things are "primarily" of the Spiritual/Cognitive/whatever.

 

Speculation:

 

Spren, it seems, are Cognitive entities and so exist primarily in the Cognitive. But, when they form a human, they can focus themselves more in the Physical at the expense of their presence in the Cognitive. They use the human to 'pull' themselves to the Physical, and at the same time the human gets pulled more towards the Cognitive (explaining Jasnah/Shallan, and also Kaladin's brief view of Shadesmar).

 

(Sidenote: Interestingly, this suggests there's some sort of "conservation of Realms", such that to bring something from the Physical to the Cognitive, you have to bring something from the Cognitive to the Physical. But there's plenty of evidence against this. The sort of exchange of Realms between humans and spren remains interesting, however. Perhaps this exchange of Realms only happens when things from different Realms bond each other.)

 

This explains Pattern's appearance in Shadesmar:

It was Pattern . He stood tall and willowy, but slightly indistinct, translucent. The complex pattern of his head, with its sharp lines and impossible geometries, seemed to have no eyes. He stood with hands behind his back, wearing a robe that seemed too stiff to be cloth.

 

He is "slightly indistinct, translucent", likely because he's shifted more to the Physical at the cost of his presence in the Cognitive.

 

As a Radiant bonds more tightly to their spren with each Ideal, the spren is drawn more and more into the Physical. This is probably why Syl, after Kaladin speaks the First Ideal, actually feels like she has a Physical presence when she sits on his shoulder in WoR but didn't before.

 

This also explains Syl's ability to find things quickly: she's still able to see into the Cognitive, and can quickly search out special plants and the like by looking quickly through the beads.

 

Tying this up with Shardblades, when a Radiant says enough Ideals, their spren is drawn powerfully enough into the Physical that it can manifest entirely Physically. At this point, when the Radiant breaks their vows, the spren remains as a Shardblade forever, though if a Radiant breaks their bond before, the spren is instead vaulted back to Shadesmar.

 

I don't think calling this "projecting" is quite the right word, but it definitely seems to be on the right track.

 

Tying this up with Shardblades, I don't know if a Shardblade when it is turned to mist is shifted more to the Cognitive. I think it's a fair guess to say that it is. What this means is that a Shardbearer wielding a dead spren must elevate the spren more to the Physical - if a law of conservation of Realms exists, this means that anyone who bonds a Shardblade is giving up their Cognitive presence to lift their dead spren Shardblade more to the Cognitive, turning them to mist, and bringing themselves more fully into the Physical. I'm not sure what effects this has on a human, but it seems a decent guess based on Sadeas that this makes you less self-aware and more animalistic. Sadeas went right off the deep end the instant he bonded Dalinar's Shardblade.

 

But perhaps there is no such law. Perhaps there's a point where there's feedback when you shift Realms such that you are 'trapped' when you go too far into one. Balancing between the Three Realms would be very unstable in such a case, because there'd be a propensity to want to shift you to one Realm more fully. This would explain why dead spren don't return to the Cognitive and instead stay as swords, though I think it makes more sense that they instead permanently took something from their dead bondees that gave them more of a Physical presence.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Moogle

[Divine0Flame he/him]

@shardcellit

And there goes that theory...maybe. The gem has always acted as an intermediary of investiture. Maybe the gem is the cap stone in the relationship. The spren were linked directly to the human via spirit relm. I am now thinking that the gem is substituting for the spirit relm in this particular relationship.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

Regarding the idea of things not existing in the Three Realms, it seems readily apparent that most things do. The boat in the Physical has a presence in the Cognitive as a bead, and likely has something in the Spiritual. Humans have a spiritweb (Spiritual), physical body, and a mind (Cognitive).

.

.

.

Tying this up with Shardblades, I don't know if a Shardblade when it is turned to mist is shifted more to the Cognitive. I think it's a fair guess to say that it is.

.

.

Moogle, a few posts back I proposed a theory that the Shardblades might be phasing between the Physical and Spiritual rather than the Physical and Cognitive. I proposed that the Shardblade are formed out the spiritual essence of the spren. Do you think there is any merit in that theory? There is not much evidence for it and we know little of the Spiritual realm. A relevant point might be that Shardblade has been described to severe the soul and it becomes fuzzy while passing through a living body. Perhaps we can make something out of that.

As always, the Shardblade killed oddly; though it cut easily through stone, steel, or anything inanimate, the metal fuzzed when it touched living skin. It traveled through the guard’s neck without leaving a mark, but once it did, the man’s eyes smoked and burned. They blackened, shriveling up in his head, and he slumped forward, dead. A Shardblade did not cut living flesh; it severed the soul itself.

WoK, Prologue

Can it be that shardblade acts differently on animate and inanimate objects because inanimate objects don't have a soul? Edited November 8, 2014 by Twenty@20