Question or confusion about Nazh and Shades

[The 11th Pancake]

Hello, 

I am hoping someone can help explain or educationally theorize why shade Nazh is quite different than the rest of the shades we've encountered throughout the stories of the Cosmere. He seems just so much more alive. Yes, he has the same characteristic of shades with the green/red eyes, however, he seems to be able to control himself in regards to what causes shades to tick (kindle flame, shed blood, run at night). Maybe thats an assumption too. My guess is that he's somehow more invested than your typical shade? would love to hear others thoughts on this. 

[First of the Tide He/him]

This should be moved to IotE Spoiler board

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips. 

I've got a few thought

1. Nazh is highly invested. 

Nazh's investiture originates all over the place (probably), not just on Threnody. This means that when he died, he resembled both the shades of Threnody and the cognitive shadows of whatever other Shardworlds he obtained large amounts of investiture from. So, M:SH Spoiler he'd be more sapient like Kelsier

2. Nazh's Identity is more powerful than other's

Since Nazh is so much more educated on the nature of cognitive shadows, investiture, connection, destiny etc, he knows very well what he is, and so can overcome the pseudo-mind-control that the investiture attempts to assert by rewriting his Identity as a shade.

3. Nazh died off-world

I think a WoB says that what makes shades shades is ambient investiture on Threnody. If he died off of Threnody, that ambient investiture would have less impact on Nazh, aside from his own inherited investiture from his life on Threnody, and so would be less assertive in it's control.

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips. 

Keep in mind that IED is still in the spoiler period, so this should have been posted to the Spoiler Zone. I've reported it for you so that an Admin can move the thread. 

1 hour ago, The 11th Pancake said:

Hello, 

I am hoping someone can help explain or educationally theorize why shade Nazh is quite different than the rest of the shades we've encountered throughout the stories of the Cosmere. He seems just so much more alive. Yes, he has the same characteristic of shades with the green/red eyes, however, he seems to be able to control himself in regards to what causes shades to tick (kindle flame, shed blood, run at night). Maybe thats an assumption too. My guess is that he's somehow more invested than your typical shade? would love to hear others thoughts on this. 

This was foreshadowed in Mistborn:Secret History - P3C2:

Spoilers below for M:SH, SfSitFoH, and Sunlit Man:

Spoiler

“How?” the man sputtered. “What? When . . .”

“. . . Why?” Kelsier added helpfully.

“Yes, why!”

“I have a very delicate constitution, you see,” Kelsier said. “And death seemed like it would be rather bad for the digestion. So I decided not to participate.”

“One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!” the man exclaimed. He had a faintly strange accent, one Kelsier couldn’t place. “It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions. This . . . this is . . .” He threw his hands into the air. “This is a bother.”

We do not have the full story yet, but apparently, on Threnody, there are "Rites" that need to be accomplished for a Cognitive Shadow to retain Sapience and not become the type of Shade seen in SfSotFoH. We know that the Shades seen in that story have something missing that cause them to be less self-aware - but, as seen in Sunlit man, they all are still subject to Threnody's Three Simple Rules - even when they retain their Sapience. 

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

If Kelsier's [Cognitive Shadow] or a seon went to the Forests of Hell, would they be shades there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is the same thing. Now, you can see that there-- the people on that planet; their Investiture; the lack of Shard means that their Cognitive Shadows react differently.

[...]

In fact, the Cognitive Shadow is also the same thing as the ghost you saw in Mistborn, that was the spirit of Leras is the same thing too.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

Are the [shades] on Threnody the same as the [Cognitive Shadows]?

Brandon Sanderson

They are a very very similar breed.

Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

Quote

WeiryWriter

To what extent do the Shades of Threnody remember their lives? Silence’s grandmother appears to recognize her but on the whole Shades don’t really act like people. Kelsier however, the other main example of a Cognitive shadow, seems little altered from his living state.

Brandon Sanderson

Shades of Threnody are not as self-aware as other shadows.

General Signed Books 2016 (July 31, 2016)

Quote

Questioner

In Secret History, Nazh briefly mentioned that there's requirements or conditions to become a Cognitive Shadow. Can you tell us one of those?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, lots of Investiture. Is one way. As a certain person discovered.

Questioner

If that person were to not have entered Preservation's pool, it still would have given the same result?

Brandon Sanderson

If they had not, they would be gone.

Questioner

I wasn't clear. If they had done a different pool, not Preservation's.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, if they had been able to Invest themselves heavily, then they could have stuck around, yes. That wasn't Preservation's pool, that was more a function of--dipping themselves, pulling an Achilles inside of a Shardpool when you are dead, turned out to work. It's not the only way, not everyone on... Threnody, for instance, is heavily Invested.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Quote

Edited for length and relevance:

Aurora_Fatalis

Does it matter what kind of power it was that filled the gaps? Like, if you were a normal human and made a Cognitive Shadow fueled by AonDor, would you be more able to "possess" a modern computer than if you were made a Cognitive Shadow by - say - Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

This can matter. Shades from Threnody, for example, work differently from Returned, who are different from Heralds. But all are Shadows.

General Reddit 2019 (Nov. 27, 2019)

 

Hope that helps

Edited December 9, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[NameIess]

On 12/9/2025 at 10:35 AM, Treamayne said:

Threnody, there are "Rites" that need to be accomplished for a Cognitive Shadow to retain Sapience and not become the type of Shade seen in SfSotFoH. We know that the Shades seen in that story have something missing that cause them to be less self-aware - but, as seen in Sunlit man, they all are still subject to Threnody's Three Simple Rules - even when they retain their Sapience. 

Where in Sunlit man do we see the Shades are still governed by the three rules?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Married said:

Where in Sunlit man do we see the Shades are still governed by the three rules?

Implied, but not stated outright - partly because the Shades of the Chorus always have "Eyes of red" while we see Nazh's eyes switch from Green to Red. TSM:
 

Spoiler

TSM Ch 22:

Quote

 

A face formed from the mists and pressed up against the glass, eyes glowing red, hands—made of smoke—slamming against the barrier. It had a gaunt face with a drooping jaw and sunken cheeks.

Nomad jumped despite himself. Even though he’d been expecting it, seeing a shade was unnerving. When he’d been on Threnody, these things had been incredibly dangerous. Society contorted around their existence, living by strict rules to avoid angering them. When the eyes went red, these things were deadly, seeking to kill. Yet here, the people of Beacon kept them like…pets?

“We fled the Evil,” the ghost said in a whispering voice, like rustling papers. Another appeared over its shoulder, just a vague, smoky outline of a person with red eyes. “Then we fled Threnody. We are your Chorus. We remember.

<snip>

Nomad nodded, thoughtful. “That’s far more than what I’d expect from them, knowing the shades of Threnody.”

“We were the first who died on Canticle,” a shade whispered to him. “The first to live in this land and devise the designs of flight—based on the ships that brought us here. But then we died and rose as shades. Remembering.”

“Shades do not remember,” another said. “We are not shades. We are the Chorus of the people.”

“But others,” another said, pressing against the glass, “must be given to the sun. This is the sun’s land.”

“Do this not,” the first said, “and shades will overrun the world. Such a small planet. They will take everything. They would rip and destroy you.”

“As we would,” another added, “if allowed. To taste the flesh of the living. To drink their heat.”

<snip>

 “Your brother?”

“I saw his face among them,” Rebeke said.

“We think that maybe,” Zeal said, “people who die without being given to the sun are drawn to join the Chorus. They say that shades will rise from those who die and don’t become sunhearts, but we rarely experience that—instead, sometimes after a death, we see mist gather and move to the Reliquary.”

 

TSM Ch 25:

Quote

Rebeke soon returned with Zeal in tow. Using his device, they knocked Elegy unconscious and reset her chains. Zeal watched with curiosity as Nomad dismissed Auxiliary.

“How,” he asked, “do you control that shade? Shouldn’t it try to kill you?”

“Auxiliary,” he replied, “is a little different from your shades. He doesn’t attack with glowing eyes or a deadly touch.

 

Hope that helps

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Implied, but not stated outright - partly because the Shades of the Chorus always have "Eyes of red" while we see Nazh's eyes switch from Green to Red. TSM:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

TSM Ch 22:

TSM Ch 25:

 

Hope that helps

I don’t know that that’s enough to go on. We didn’t see any of the rules broken around the chorus to enrage them. And I wouldn’t say they’re sapient enough to make a generalization to all shades, including fully sentient ones like Nazh, especially since he didn’t seem to be particularly affected by the rules.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Married said:

including fully sentient ones like Nazh, especially since he didn’t seem to be particularly affected by the rules.

IED Ch 28:

Spoiler

Captain Crow stood at the very end of the hall, leaning against the bulkhead, arms folded. She was watched over by Nazh, his eyes glowing full green. Shards. Anyone who knew anything about his homeworld would understand that warning, and know not to push him into the red. 

It could be that we are discussing at cross purposes - so for the sake of clarification I want to note that when I say "three simple rules" I mean the process of angering a Shade from Green to Red and them going on a killing spree. The Specific Rules or things that set them off are likely to chage over times and environments, but the Process itself is shown to still be in effect. 

Edited December 12, 2025 by Treamayne
Clarification/SPAG

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

IED Ch 28:

  Reveal hidden contents

Captain Crow stood at the very end of the hall, leaning against the bulkhead, arms folded. She was watched over by Nazh, his eyes glowing full green. Shards. Anyone who knew anything about his homeworld would understand that warning, and know not to push him into the red. 

I could be that we are discussing at cross purposes - so for the sake of clarification I want to note that when I say "three simple rules" I mean the process of angering a Shade from Green to Red and them going on a killing spree. The Specific Rules or things that set them off are likely to chage over times and environments, but the Process itself is shown to still be in effect. 

Ah, that does clarify things. Sorry, I assumed when you said all shades followed the three simple rules of Threnody that you meant they all followed the three rules of ‘no running’ ‘no fire’ and ‘no drawing blood’ from Threnody. You’re right that all shades seem to go green to red, and blood does seem to be a common factor for causing them to go red.

Edited December 12, 2025 by Ookla the Married

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Married said:

Sorry, I assumed when you said all shades followed the three simple rules of Threnody that you meant they all followed the three rules of ‘no running’ ‘no fire’ and ‘no drawing blood’ from Threnody. You’re right that all shades seem to go green to red, and blood does seem to be a common factor for causing them to go red.

Yeah, we just do not have any other name for that process - which seems to only affect Cognitive Shadows from Threnody (with the "warped Breath"); so I used the name we have, while knowing that specifics will alter based on timing and environment. 

WoB

Spoiler

Questioner

So the Threnodites are described as having a smokey shadow something to their soul; we don't really know what that is. Is it more similar to the black smoke that comes from Awakened objects in Yumi and Nightblood? Or is it more like Midnight Essence in Tress?

Brandon Sanderson

It is more like Breath than it is like either one of those. More like Breath, but something's a little wrong with it

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Yeah, we just do not have any other name for that process - which seems to only affect Cognitive Shadows from Threnody (with the "warped Breath"); so I used the name we have, while knowing that specifics will alter based on timing and environment. 

WoB

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So the Threnodites are described as having a smokey shadow something to their soul; we don't really know what that is. Is it more similar to the black smoke that comes from Awakened objects in Yumi and Nightblood? Or is it more like Midnight Essence in Tress?

Brandon Sanderson

It is more like Breath than it is like either one of those. More like Breath, but something's a little wrong with it

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

True. I think saying something like ‘all shades seem to share bloodlust, and green to red eyes’ would be a little more clear, especially since the three rules doesn’t refer to the shade’s getting angry, just to what things make them angry.