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Long Game 109: The Lords of Luthadel


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Posted
12 hours ago, IcedOutPenguin said:

Hmm @Booknewt Renalis

Well that's... random. Well I suppose all poke votes are. Not rly going to poke vote bc I've never seen it be particularly helpful.

FYI @dplostthegame someone's poke voting you 

11 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Lord Your Mistakes would have plenty of reason to share his name with him too.

LOLLLL. Lord Your Mistakes sounds like Tindwyl

I'll do some rp later, but for now just going to do what little analysis I can. Leaning village for HoidSlayer bc he's being very eager about the game in a way I haven't seen elims be in the past. Not sure what else I can draw from anything tbh. Yay for D1!

Posted
20 minutes ago, Booknewt said:

Well that's... random. Well I suppose all poke votes are. Not rly going to poke vote bc I've never seen it be particularly helpful.

FYI @dplostthegame someone's poke voting you 

LOLLLL. Lord Your Mistakes sounds like Tindwyl

I'll do some rp later, but for now just going to do what little analysis I can. Leaning village for HoidSlayer bc he's being very eager about the game in a way I haven't seen elims be in the past. Not sure what else I can draw from anything tbh. Yay for D1!

Guess who i based him off of?

Posted
2 hours ago, Booknewt said:

I'll do some rp later, but for now just going to do what little analysis I can. Leaning village for HoidSlayer bc he's being very eager about the game in a way I haven't seen elims be in the past. Not sure what else I can draw from anything tbh. Yay for D1!

I don't trust Hoid because he is setting up PMs like Doc used to.

And I never trust Doc.

Spoiler

The problem is that I always end up trusting him.

 

Posted
16 hours ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Ooh I forgot about that

dplostthegame

hello bro

feels nice that the 500-post-long "haha let's mess around for half of d1" tradition is staying strong in other forums

not gonna pokevote anyone yet because funni and i want to make some reads before actually doing stuff

3 hours ago, Booknewt said:

Well that's... random. Well I suppose all poke votes are. Not rly going to poke vote bc I've never seen it be particularly helpful.

FYI @dplostthegame someone's poke voting you 

LOLLLL. Lord Your Mistakes sounds like Tindwyl

I'll do some rp later, but for now just going to do what little analysis I can. Leaning village for HoidSlayer bc he's being very eager about the game in a way I haven't seen elims be in the past. Not sure what else I can draw from anything tbh. Yay for D1!

seems weird that activity or eagerness is more NAI than townlean here but valid point

i uh

am not gonna rp for now

because i still cant understand anything abt the flavortext(in reality i was just too lazy to read the writeup lol)

for the funnies and also for the mods to either laugh at or praise me, i'm gonna make some godreads off zero basis so take this with a grain of salt

town: hoidslayer, TOWH(thatoneworldhopper), coder, KSOHS

scum: dp(trust), sart

 

laugh at me for the next 10 posts idc lol

Posted
16 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

People were already throwing wild accusations, but Lord Your Mistakes preferred to wait and gather information.

5 hours ago, Booknewt said:

Well I suppose all poke votes are. Not rly going to poke vote bc I've never seen it be particularly helpful.

1 hour ago, dplostthegame said:

feels nice that the 500-post-long "haha let's mess around for half of d1" tradition is staying strong in other forums

not gonna pokevote anyone yet because funni and i want to make some reads before actually doing stuff

To those of you who have chosen to watch and not interfere - how exactly do you plan to gather information?

Book, I get what you're trying to say; but do you have any other alternative?

Reads can only be made once people start doing stuff. 

The larger the database we can build, the better.

Renalis

Book, you're right. Poke votes are often weak because a single vote, without evidence, will never be dangerous. So let's introduce some chaos.

Let's apply some pressure.

2 hours ago, ThatOneWorldhopper said:

I don't trust Hoid because he is setting up PMs like Doc used to.

And I never trust Doc.

  Reveal hidden contents

The problem is that I always end up trusting him.

 

Also not loving this post the most, but I guess I'm biased

Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Alright!

At last, we are here!

Finally!

It's so great to finally get started!

(I'll stop now)

Lord Markus heard the gates slam behind him as he paced down the corridor to the assembly room, and disregarded them. He was late. They were already speaking when he entered, and he noticed several eyes flitting in his direction as he made his way to his seat. But he paid them no mind. He was here on a mission.

Lord Markus ignored the Lords surrounding him... ignored the presentation Elend was giving before him... and opened his briefcase, pulling out a quill and a paper. And began to write.

Alright, I need to go to sleep cause I've already stayed up late enough to wait for this as it is.

Essay for @TwinStorm, as promised (I'm a man of my word 😉) (it's more of a stylized rant than an essay, but you're not my english teacher so I think you'll survive)

  Reveal hidden contents

Sanderson Elimination is a truly unique phenomenon - even, to some extents, a contradiction. We play for fun, yet can rarely identify the exact element that ignites the very spark we love and seek - and in our investment, we pour our hearts into paradoxical strategy in defiance of the true role chance plays in the final result of the activity.

SE is an evolution of the party game mafia, meant to be played in person. Attempting to move the fun of mafia into a digital context is a natural and understandable step to take - and yet, in the limitations of a digital world, SE loses much of what characterizes mafia while somehow sacrificing none of the fun - becoming a unique game altogether. Deduction in traditional mafia is deeply rooted in physical reactions, seeking discrepancies in the improvised speech and behavior of people you know closely. But in SE, that resource is rendered foreign: every move taken can be carefully planned out, and every face hides behind a veil that can never be pierced. In a way, in a world of perfect players, truly behavioral analysis in SE should be absolutely useless - players are not subject to the same human fallacies that one would find in physical game. And yet, therein lies the paradox - for we do not treat it as useless. We obsess over the smallest comments, a tone we believe to detect in another's prose that could be influenced by a million other factors - because what other choice do we have? Our analysis is inherently flawed. We attempt to put ourselves in the elim's shoes, attempt to imagine what they would do, yet they can predict that too. The only truly solid evidence we can possibly find is through game mechanics - and even then, elims can play their cards right - or even make mistakes that inadvertently clear them. Yet despite all of these seemingly pessimistic truths, these theoretically insurmountable odds...

We still play.

We still have fun.

And we still win.

Admittedly, I've played like 8 games and never once have I seen the elim team lose. But then again... I know it happens. Not often perhaps, and our games are not nearly as balanced as we'd hope due to the reasons outlined above, but it still happens. Why? I propose a main reason:

Luck.

Chance. The fall of the dice. In a game where everyone is equal, where our instinctive reactions don't hold anyone back and the village are wolves ready to pounce on any flicker of possible suspicion, the game tends to favor those who fall under the radar in the opening. For SE games often play out as a chain reaction: cycle 1's exe is often consumed with a decent variety of trains (yet rarely more than 3-4 significant ones) based off of early moves, often something as small as single posts. Following the first exe, the next day's execution will almost inevitably be among the primary trains of the first. In the third day, more diversification is possible, yet notable trains from C1 rarely fade until satisfied. In this way, the game often becomes trapped in a single-minded slaughter of early suspicions, while elims that manage to not draw attention for the first two to three cycles are often good to go. And here's the thing; elims naturally draw less attention in early cycles than villas. This is something players often miss. But not infused with an urgency to take action, skilled elims have no reason to make themselves targets - while village players are constantly forced to to do the best in their ability to secure a victory. As a villager, I have been accused multiple times for sporadic vote changes made because of the stress I feel - dangerous actions that an elim would likely hesitate to make unless severely pressured.

Behind these village trends is human nature: at the start of the game, we are eager to grasp onto any evidence we can, and so we lunge onto anything that stands out from a small, easily parsable database. Yet as the play progresses, we continue to hold onto this early evidence, despite the situation changing: our database expands, but our scope of analysis rarely keeps up. Adding to this is our drive to be right: as humans, we feel an instinctive urge that makes it hard for us to accept we're wrong - when probed about our reads, we feel the need to defend them instead of relenting and admitting that we may have made a mistake - and when we do relent, that in itself is often seen as suspicious or "inconsistent". I could go into a discussion right now about how our pressure to appear village compromises our game-solving (*cough* self-preservation being seen as elim *cough*), but this monstrosity is already long enough as it is.

This is becoming a rant (*cough* it became a rant a long time ago), but the end point is this: the natural strategy we deviate towards in SE is rigged against the village. It is why village so often loses without finding a single elim, despite shots becoming a near 50/50 as parity approaches. If they hope to truly take the victory out of the hands of the dice, village needs new strategies - that adapt and evolve as the game progresses, instead of focusing on early-game accusations that often pale in retrospect. Too often in SE, village's tendencies - the human nature of its players - often becomes its own poison, self-destroying while the elims need only step back and watch the chaos unfold. As we enter this game, let us take a step back and reflect: can we break the patterns that have led the village to inevitable failure so many times in the past? Can we try - at the very least, attempt - to form a new approach? Or will we continue to perpetuate these patterns that are by no means negative, but undeniably there?

Before I finish this, there is one final thing I would like to mention: in writing this, I have taken a very analytical, critical approach (not nearly as focused of one as I could have made, and I'm sorry if this is a bit of a jumbled mess, I was making it up as I went along, but you get what I mean). In SE, in our stress, many of us (me included) lean heavily towards analysis and criticism. And yet... the truth is, our analysis rarely has the effect on the game we wish it did. You can ignore this entire mess I wrote if you want; it's really not that important. It's not going to change the way you play or probably help us at all to find the elims. Because all I've done is criticize strategies without presenting a viable alternative. And that's fine. In the end, SE is just a game. The true point is not to get everything right, to kill the elims or slaughter the village, but to have fun.

We can never forget that.

 - Hoid Slayer

Let the man cook 😔

If you truly believe that we need new strategies, I will make a suggestion. It has become the dominant evil strategy to let the village hang itself. Therefore, we need to target those that do not speak up. That would customarily be the purview of poke votes. However, their purpose has become extremely watered down. Instead of actionable evidence, they have become friendly reminders to participate, and often overlooked. I propose a new term. Lurk votes. I intend to vote on those who have logged onto the Shard, but have not actively participated in the discussion. Crucially, this means they have had the opportunity to be active, but have chosen to be silent. This is often an obvious indicator of overthinking, desperately trying to blend in without arising any suspicion. To that end, @Akimikoisthecutest I place my vote on you. Akimikoisthecutest . You were here only two hours ago, and as I speak I see you lurking these halls. However, your tongue remains silent. I will also lambast @ruler of the mists. They were spotted eight hours ago, and yet no word from them either. Speak, vote, and perhaps I will show you mercy.

Edited by Sart
typo
Posted
4 minutes ago, Sart said:

If you truly believe that we need new strategies, I will make a suggestion. It has become the dominant evil strategy to let the village hang itself. Therefore, we need to target those that do not speak up. That would customarily be the purview of poke votes. However, their purpose has become extremely watered down. Instead of actionable evidence, they have become friendly reminders to participate, and often overlooked. I propose a new term. Lurk votes. I intend to vote on those who have logged onto the Shard, but have not actively participated in the discussion. Crucially, this means they have had the opportunity to be active, but have chosen to be silent. This is often an obvious indicator of overthinking, desperately trying to blend in without arising any suspicion. To that end, @Akimikoisthecutest I place my vote on you. Akimikoisthecutest . You were here only two hours ago, and as I speak I see you lurking these halls. However, your tongue remains silent. I will also lambast @ruler of the mists. They were spotted eight hours ago, and yet no word from them either. Speak, vote, and perhaps I will show you mercy.

Excuse me?? You dare vote me? The audacity!

Posted
6 minutes ago, Sart said:

If you truly believe that we need new strategies, I will make a suggestion. It has become the dominant evil strategy to let the village hang itself. Therefore, we need to target those that do not speak up. That would customarily be the purview of poke votes. However, their purpose has become extremely watered down. Instead of actionable evidence, they have become friendly reminders to participate, and often overlooked. I propose a new term. Lurk votes. I intend to vote on those who have logged onto the Shard, but have not actively participated in the discussion. Crucially, this means they have had the opportunity to be active, but have chosen to be silent. This is often an obvious indicator of overthinking, desperately trying to blend in without arising any suspicion. To that end, @Akimikoisthecutest I place my vote on you. Akimikoisthecutest . You were here only two hours ago, and as I speak I see you lurking these halls. However, your tongue remains silent. I will also lambast @ruler of the mists. They were spotted eight hours ago, and yet no word from them either. Speak, vote, and perhaps I will show you mercy.

Interesting thinking

I disagree

Mainly because I am often guilty of lurking myself

It’s possible for a person to have time to log on the Shard, but not enough time to make a meaningful post; although, in my case, I try to at least let my teammates know when that happens with a quick pop-in

But I appreciate the intent 

Just now, Akimikoisthecutest said:

Excuse me?? You dare vote me? The audacity!

Ooh a response 😋

Is this your first SE game, Akimiko? (also can I just call you that? - your name’s kinda long)

Posted
Just now, Akimikoisthecutest said:

This is. You totally can btw

Cool

What do you think?

(This game is moving pretty slow compared to normal btw - there’s a notable lack of veterans)

Posted
30 minutes ago, Sart said:

If you truly believe that we need new strategies, I will make a suggestion. It has become the dominant evil strategy to let the village hang itself. Therefore, we need to target those that do not speak up. That would customarily be the purview of poke votes. However, their purpose has become extremely watered down. Instead of actionable evidence, they have become friendly reminders to participate, and often overlooked. I propose a new term. Lurk votes. I intend to vote on those who have logged onto the Shard, but have not actively participated in the discussion. Crucially, this means they have had the opportunity to be active, but have chosen to be silent. This is often an obvious indicator of overthinking, desperately trying to blend in without arising any suspicion. To that end, @Akimikoisthecutest I place my vote on you. Akimikoisthecutest . You were here only two hours ago, and as I speak I see you lurking these halls. However, your tongue remains silent. I will also lambast @ruler of the mists. They were spotted eight hours ago, and yet no word from them either. Speak, vote, and perhaps I will show you mercy.

I don't think voting for people who are on the shard but not here is a good strategy, especially because some of us might have other things to do on the shard. And while I can see how you can think that the Elims sit back and wait, I've just as often seen the Elims be very active. 

Posted
52 minutes ago, Akimikoisthecutest said:

I think it's pretty fun

Also I'm voting Renalis

And why would that be?

What is making you vote Renalis?

Posted
2 hours ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Interesting thinking

I disagree

Mainly because I am often guilty of lurking myself

It’s possible for a person to have time to log on the Shard, but not enough time to make a meaningful post; although, in my case, I try to at least let my teammates know when that happens with a quick pop-in

But I appreciate the intent 

Ooh a response 😋

I feel that is placing too much emphasis on posts being meaningful. We have seen a lot of turnover from people desperately trying to make meaningful posts, only to get killed, and view the effort as not worth it. We have a burnout crisis, and putting too high of standards on ourselves contributes to it. Simple one sentence posts are "low effort" but keep the conversations going and advance the game. Your conversation with Lady Cricket was a good example, and I want to see more stuff like it. Admittedly, this is an extremely poor rule set to this out on, but I think my point stands.

Also, citing your teammates, could be an elim slip. Not voting it, but noting it.

1 hour ago, IcedOutPenguin said:

I don't think voting for people who are on the shard but not here is a good strategy, especially because some of us might have other things to do on the shard. And while I can see how you can think that the Elims sit back and wait, I've just as often seen the Elims be very active. 

True, there's usually a mixture of both, but that shouldn't stop us from trying it. If we ignore one subset of people, we incentivize that behavior. Personally, I want to incentivize activity from good and evil. That's more fun to me. I should also point out, that the two players I pointed out logged onto the Shard, but had posted nowhere else. That to me is different from being active on other parts of the Shard.

Speaking of, Lady Cricket has graced us with her presence. Thank you for sharing your opinion. I move to my other suspect. Ruler Of The Mists. @ruler of the mists The game has started. Join in the discussion.

Posted
1 hour ago, Akimikoisthecutest said:

Idk. There has been no reaction whatsoever

Well.. I was about to say Book has not been online since my vote, but I see she has been. @Booknewt, care to comment?

15 minutes ago, Sart said:

Also, citing your teammates, could be an elim slip. Not voting it, but noting it.

...

The thread?

Elim OR villa, your teammates deserve to know what's going on with you

Not loving vibes from Sart, but he's an asset so long as he encourages action so I'll take it

Speaking of, is this your first game?

@KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren haven't heard anything from you either

Posted
1 hour ago, Akimikoisthecutest said:

Idk. There has been no reaction whatsoever

No reaction bc I was offline when this train somehow formed from the ether... It's the school year and I had extracurriculars + homework.

4 hours ago, Hoid Slayer said:

To those of you who have chosen to watch and not interfere - how exactly do you plan to gather information?

Book, I get what you're trying to say; but do you have any other alternative?

Yeah that's a fair point I guess. I'm... bad with D1's (first one I was elim and on a road trip, second one was a MESS). Thank you for the advice! I'll do reads at the end of the post, just want to help my friend out bc I should've explained far more about this to him when he signed up.

6 hours ago, dplostthegame said:

because i still cant understand anything abt the flavortext(in reality i was just too lazy to read the writeup lol)

Yeah the flavortext refers to the situation at the start of the second Mistborn book. It's... kind of complicated to explain without context, and PARTICULARLY without spoilers. If you don't care about spoilers ig open the spoiler box (for the record you should read Mistborn though pretty please)

Spoiler

So basically:

Book 1: World is essentially Middle Earth if Sauron won in some ways, really really awful, sky is red, there's ash spewing and falling from the sky everywhere, there are no flowers. Also an evil emperor called the "Lord Ruler." Book is essentially a rebellion agains the Lord Ruler. Don't take this as a pitch for the book, I don't have good book pitches. Just context.

Book 2: They've defeated the Lord Ruler, new government is a king (Elend, he's a major character in all three books) and a council which is 1/3 the old lords that aren't going to just try to kill everyone, 1/3 merchants I think, and 1/3 skaa craftsmen. So basically a constitutional monarchy with the king having more power than like modern-day England. Also the council can impeach (not called that but that's what it is) the king. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about any of that, doing this from memory.

But the government is really, really, weak, and about 2 armies are surrounding the city at the start of the second book (Straff Venture (Elend's father actually, NOT a nice guy AT ALL, pretty sure closest to non-supernatural pure evil in the Cosmere) and... I think Ashweather Cett?), and a third shows up (forget the guy's name, Jastes or smth). Bc the government is very very weak. So they get to deal with that! Yay!

Sending this now bc HoidSlayer asked for my comments, will edit in my reads in a second.

Posted
6 minutes ago, Booknewt said:

No reaction bc I was offline when this train somehow formed from the ether... It's the school year and I had extracurriculars + homework.

Yeah that's a fair point I guess. I'm... bad with D1's (first one I was elim and on a road trip, second one was a MESS). Thank you for the advice! I'll do reads at the end of the post, just want to help my friend out bc I should've explained far more about this to him when he signed up.

Yeah the flavortext refers to the situation at the start of the second Mistborn book. It's... kind of complicated to explain without context, and PARTICULARLY without spoilers. If you don't care about spoilers ig open the spoiler box (for the record you should read Mistborn though pretty please)

  Hide contents

So basically:

Book 1: World is essentially Middle Earth if Sauron won in some ways, really really awful, sky is red, there's ash spewing and falling from the sky everywhere, there are no flowers. Also an evil emperor called the "Lord Ruler." Book is essentially a rebellion agains the Lord Ruler. Don't take this as a pitch for the book, I don't have good book pitches. Just context.

Book 2: They've defeated the Lord Ruler, new government is a king (Elend, he's a major character in all three books) and a council which is 1/3 the old lords that aren't going to just try to kill everyone, 1/3 merchants I think, and 1/3 skaa craftsmen. So basically a constitutional monarchy with the king having more power than like modern-day England. Also the council can impeach (not called that but that's what it is) the king. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about any of that, doing this from memory.

But the government is really, really, weak, and about 2 armies are surrounding the city at the start of the second book (Straff Venture (Elend's father actually, NOT a nice guy AT ALL, pretty sure closest to non-supernatural pure evil in the Cosmere) and... I think Ashweather Cett?), and a third shows up (forget the guy's name, Jastes or smth). Bc the government is very very weak. So they get to deal with that! Yay!

Sending this now bc HoidSlayer asked for my comments, will edit in my reads in a second.

Appreciate your presence

Sorry about the train, but this thread is quiet and I'm willing to apply the pressure necessary to change that

Not just for you; anyone who thinks the murder of Booknewt is unjust better start speaking up

Right now I really don't have more to produce reads off of than vibes (which is what I'm trying to change), but @ThatOneWorldhopper and @Sart are striking me as kinda weird - although Sart's actually leading with someone, which I'll take it

Not loving @CoderDrag0n8 and KSauce's lack of poke votes; I feel like they'd be the people to send them in, and they're both also quite active elsewhere in the Shard

Lots of new players somewhat skew everything, of course. It scares me that the only person here who I believe has more experience than me is @ThatOneWorldhopper, and I've only been doing this since like May

Posted
9 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Well.. I was about to say Book has not been online since my vote, but I see she has been. @Booknewt, care to comment?

...

The thread?

Elim OR villa, your teammates deserve to know what's going on with you

Not loving vibes from Sart, but he's an asset so long as he encourages action so I'll take it

Speaking of, is this your first game?

@KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren haven't heard anything from you either

Speaking in thread that you'll be busy would be a positive change. Obviously, don't lie about real life stuff, but that is helpful. I've much more often seen it in elim docs though, which is what I thought you were referencing.

... Are you serious? No, I am very old. LG4 was my first game. I'm mostly retired, but there was a last minute call for signups, so I decided to join for old times sake.

Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Sart said:

I should also point out, that the two players I pointed out logged onto the Shard, but had posted nowhere else. That to me is different from being active on other parts of the Shard.

That is a better clarification, thank you.

Edit:

Does someone have a vote count?

Edited by IcedOutPenguin
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Not just for you; anyone who thinks the murder of Booknewt is unjust better start speaking up

Do I count? /j

My reads:
Akimo - Elim leaning, bc randomly picking someone to vote tends to be a reaction from an new elim placed in the hot seat in my experience (my experience - being elim my first game and randomly picking a ton of people). 

HoidSlayer seems to be reducing fog of war, so tempted to lean village for him, but he's experienced enough that his messages shouldn't be too different as an elim. Is starting a spy network, can't tell if that's just out of excitement for having time to play a ton (which is what i'm getting) or elim. Doc did start a massive spy network as elim last game, and found Hoid through it unless I'm mistaken, but that was a very different situation

Sart - Seems to be trying to make us rethink our tactics. Either an elim trying to spread chaos / divert attention away from other elims, or a villager worried we'll lose. If the first: Not much we can draw from that other than elim. If the second: well what I would draw from that if I weren't me is that they were trying to start a rival train from something, but there's no trains that they'd be trying to start from other than mine and I can eliminate that possiblity. So either elim trying to spread chaos or villager trying to genuinely solve. Has anyone played any games with Sart who knows their elim style?

Dplos - Leaning village, can't tell if that's bias though bc I want them to be village. I ran a game recently where they were village and this feels like v!Dplos, but I've never seen e!Dplos so I don't really know. (Can't give any justification here unfortunately - just vibes)

Iced, Worldhopper, Coder, Ksauce - don't have enough information, say stuff please (Iced, Worldhopper, Coder, I know you've said stuff, but say more pls)

Going to vote Akimo for now, bc I don't have a better lead

edit: Whelp, got ninja'd by Iced's post.

Read on Iced: Seems to be coming out swinging. From my memory of the purelake game, he was suspicious of CD for a while before voting, and didn't really pokevote at all to my recollection. So mild elim read there just bc of difference in playstyle

Edited by Booknewt
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