Do the allomantic pairings actually make sense?

[cosmos3108]

Hi all! This is my first post on here and I've been trying to wrap my head around how the internal/external pushing/pulling powers connect. This could be just a function of trying to assign meaning and categories for things that don't 100% fit but I wanted to at least try to broach the topic. I've also looked around and I haven't found anything that explains it so if this is already answered please point me to it.

As far as I'm concerned the 16 allomantic metals don't all really fit in the internal/external pushing/pulling categories. Referencing the Allomancy article on the coppermind, the "enhancement" and "temporal" groups make perfect sense, however I feel like there are gaps in the physical and mental sections. For example Aluminum and Cadmium have generally the same effects but one is external and one is internal makes sense however zinc and copper have practically nothing to do with one another. Even the temporal powers gold and cadmium for example with gold you are seeing your past an internal view of time and cadmium is slowing down time which is an external control of it. but rioting and copper clouds don't feel connected at all. This leads me to think that "mental" allomancy should be 2 different categories. with a different set of internal powers going with zinc and brass, and a different set of external powers going with copper and bronze.

The other place where I'm struggling to really see the connection is the internal physical powers. For every other set of powers they are very clear opposites for the push and the pull but for tin and pewter I struggle to see how enhancing strength and enhancing senses are opposite. Now I know to separate pewter and tin to work with the other rules of allomancy the base metal for pewter would have to be lead which is established to not have an allomantic power but maybe burning leads power is to weaken physical strength which is why people get sick when they burn it? I honestly don't know I'm basically just spitballing here.

The other issue I recognize is that adding a metal for pewter and tin each would then make the number of metals not divisible by 4 which means that either steel and iron need another set of internal powers to go with them or that pewter, tin, or both would need 3 more metals to fill them out.

I also recognize that at the end of HoA sazed said that there were 2 more metals and their alloys that hadn't been discovered to Spook which could be interpreted as only 2 had yet to be discovered but I wouldn't put it past him to hold back the full truth about it if he thought the others were unnecessary or too powerful.

I might be overthinking it and I don't really think we need to give mistborn MORE powers but I do think it would be cool to at least theorize what the other powers could be.
 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

10 minutes ago, cosmos3108 said:

Hi all! This is my first post on here and I've been trying to wrap my head around how the internal/external pushing/pulling powers connect. This could be just a function of trying to assign meaning and categories for things that don't 100% fit but I wanted to at least try to broach the topic. I've also looked around and I haven't found anything that explains it so if this is already answered please point me to it.

As far as I'm concerned the 16 allomantic metals don't all really fit in the internal/external pushing/pulling categories. Referencing the Allomancy article on the coppermind, the "enhancement" and "temporal" groups make perfect sense, however I feel like there are gaps in the physical and mental sections. For example Aluminum and Cadmium have generally the same effects but one is external and one is internal makes sense however zinc and copper have practically nothing to do with one another. Even the temporal powers gold and cadmium for example with gold you are seeing your past an internal view of time and cadmium is slowing down time which is an external control of it. but rioting and copper clouds don't feel connected at all. This leads me to think that "mental" allomancy should be 2 different categories. with a different set of internal powers going with zinc and brass, and a different set of external powers going with copper and bronze.

The other place where I'm struggling to really see the connection is the internal physical powers. For every other set of powers they are very clear opposites for the push and the pull but for tin and pewter I struggle to see how enhancing strength and enhancing senses are opposite. Now I know to separate pewter and tin to work with the other rules of allomancy the base metal for pewter would have to be lead which is established to not have an allomantic power but maybe burning leads power is to weaken physical strength which is why people get sick when they burn it? I honestly don't know I'm basically just spitballing here.

The other issue I recognize is that adding a metal for pewter and tin each would then make the number of metals not divisible by 4 which means that either steel and iron need another set of internal powers to go with them or that pewter, tin, or both would need 3 more metals to fill them out.

I also recognize that at the end of HoA sazed said that there were 2 more metals and their alloys that hadn't been discovered to Spook which could be interpreted as only 2 had yet to be discovered but I wouldn't put it past him to hold back the full truth about it if he thought the others were unnecessary or too powerful.

I might be overthinking it and I don't really think we need to give mistborn MORE powers but I do think it would be cool to at least theorize what the other powers could be.
 

Besides the God Metals (Oh what a mess those are) there are only 16 Allomantic and Feruchemical metals. I assume you have read Era 2, but if you haven't, spoilers for Book 1 of Era 2:

Spoiler

At the back of the book, it details the 16 allomantic and feruchemical metals, and (kind of) explains how Atium is no longer a metal, but a God Metal.

This means that at the time of Sazed telling Spook about the 2 extra pairs, he was referring to the 2 new temporal metals, Cadmium and Bendalloy, and the 2 new Enhancment metals, Nicrosil and Chromium.

 

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips. 

1 hour ago, cosmos3108 said:

For example Aluminum and Cadmium have generally the same effects but one is external and one is internal makes sense however zinc and copper have practically nothing to do with one another.

Zinc and Copper are not Paired. Zinc and Brass are paired (Soothing and Rioting), Copper and Bronze are paired (Sensing Investiture and Supressing the ability to sense investiture).

1 hour ago, cosmos3108 said:

Even the temporal powers gold and cadmium for example with gold you are seeing your past an internal view of time and cadmium is slowing down time which is an external control of it.

Gold and Cadium are also not paired. Gold pairs with Electrum (Seeing past for yourself and seeing slightly into your own future); while Cadmium and Bendalloy are paired (Speeding up time in a bubble and slowing down tome in a bubble). The sets of pairs in a quadrant are not necessarily connected - other than they are operating on some of the same principals (Like Time). 

Please recall, this was partially explained in Mistborn book 1 - TFE (Ch 20)

Spoiler

“One’s a Pulling metal, isn’t it?” Vin asked, opening her eyes. “That one’s Kelsier. You’re Pushing.”

“Very good,” Marsh said. “He is burning iron, as I asked him to so that you could practice. I—of course—am burning bronze.”

“Do they all do that?” Vin asked. “Feel distinct, I mean?”

Marsh nodded. “You can tell a Pulling metal from a Pushing metal by the Allomantic signature. Actually, that’s how some of the metals were originally divided into their categories. It isn’t intuitive, for instance, that tin Pulls while pewter Pushes. I didn’t tell you to open your eyes.”

Vin shut them.

“Focus on the pulses,” Marsh said. “Try and distinguish their lengths. Can you tell the difference between them?”
<Snip>

“What was I supposed to see, then?” Vin asked.

“Eventually, you’ll be able to sense two different pulse lengths. Internal metals, like bronze and copper, give off longer pulses than external metals, like iron and steel. Practice will also let you sense the three patterns within the pulses: one for the physical metals, one for the mental metals, and one for the two greater metals.

“Pulse length, metal group, and Push-Pull variance—once you know these three things, you will be able to tell exactly which metals your opponent is burning. A long pulse that beats against you and has a quick pattern will be pewter—the internal Pushing physical metal.”

“Why the names?” Vin asked. “External and internal?”

“Metals come in groups of four—or, at least, the lower eight do. Two external metals, two internal metals—one each that Pushes, one each that Pulls. With iron, you Pull on something outside of yourself, with steel you Push on something outside of yourself. With tin you Pull on something inside of yourself, with pewter you Push on something inside of yourself.”

“But, bronze and copper,” Vin said. “Kelsier called them internal metals, but it seems like they affect external things. Copper keeps people from sensing when you use Allomancy.”

Marsh shook his head. “Copper doesn’t change your opponents, it changes something within yourself that has an effect on your opponents. That’s why it is an internal metal. Brass, however, alters another person’s emotions directly—and is an external metal.”

Some of the organization of the Allomantic table was devised (in world) because of the Signatures the Metal Rhythms carried. It;s how Allomancers first knew that metals were connected, and their relationships with each other. Pulling/Pushing, Pulse Length (Internal/External), and Rhythm (by Era 2 they know there are actually four rhythms, TLR had just be obfuscating Allomancy during the Final Empire - to keep an advantage). 

2 hours ago, cosmos3108 said:

For every other set of powers they are very clear opposites for the push and the pull but for tin and pewter I struggle to see how enhancing strength and enhancing senses are opposite.

Allomantic Pairs do not have to be opposites at all, and this is a good example - they are paired by the nature of Base Metal and Alloy - Pushing and Pulling. But, in this case they are not pushing and pulling on the same things - just both affecting different physical processes - Pewter is Pushing your Muscles and Body to their limits. Tin is Pulling on the neural connections and their sensory organs to improve acuity (and why A-Tin will always increase all senses at once, while F-Tin can store/tap a single Sense, but needs a separate Tinmind for each sense being Stored/Tapped). 

2 hours ago, cosmos3108 said:

I also recognize that at the end of HoA sazed said that there were 2 more metals and their alloys that hadn't been discovered to Spook which could be interpreted as only 2 had yet to be discovered but I wouldn't put it past him to hold back the full truth about it if he thought the others were unnecessary or too powerful.

If you have not yet read Era 2 - then much of this will make more sense when you do. Keep in mind, much of Harmony's comment to Spook there was also obfuscating that Atium and Malatium were not meant to be part of normal Allomancy. Preservation had made changes to facilitate the Prophesy and therefore (spoilers)

Spoiler

replaced Cadmium and Bendalloy with Atium and Malatium in the Temporal Quadrant because he needed part of Ruin;s power trapped in the Atium Cycle of the Pits of Hathsin. WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted atium and malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

Quote

little wilson (paraphrased)

I saw Brandon at a book signing back in mid-December, and I asked him about the 16 percent deal. He said that Preservation replaced the real External Temporal Metals with atium and malatium (at least I'm assuming malatium, but he didn't mention that specifically. He only said atium). So not-cerrobend and cadmium weren't counted in the 16%. Nicrosil and Chromium, on the other hand, were. So there are chromium and nicrosil Mistings running around, not knowing that they're Mistings.

TWG Posts (Jan. 20, 2009)

Note: Sanderson had originally intended for Cadmium's Alloy to be Cerrobend - until he found out it is covered by Copyright and Trademark and he could not use it. So for a while all WoBs will say "not-cerrobend" because he had not yet decided which Alloy to use yet (which eventually became Bendalloy)

Hope that helps

[cosmos3108]

I’ll go ahead and do an intro post as well but Ive read all of Mistborn including secret history and I know in world they only think there are 16 but there was also a time when they thought there were only 10 so I didn’t think it was impossible there could be more. Again I know there are a lot of holes in my premise but even though I’m wrong, I do find the categories frustrating because most of the metal/alloy pairs are exact opposites other than pewter and tin. And copper and bronze don’t really feel like mental abilities as much as all the others are very clearly physical, enhancing, or temporal. I did forget about the explanation from marsh about the pulses though which does mean I’m 100% wrong haha

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, cosmos3108 said:

And copper and bronze don’t really feel like mental abilities as much as all the others are very clearly physical, enhancing, or temporal.

It's likely what is wrong is the Ars Arcanum. My bet is that the categories are better named (for where they affect the Allomancer and the world around them):

• Physical (Realm)
• Cognitive  (Realm)
• Enhancement
• Spiritual (Realm)

WoB:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

<edited for Length and Relevance>

Phantine

Does that 'inside a body' thing work on most magics?

For instance, if Han stuck Luke into a Mistborn Tauntaun (a distant and unlucky relative of the mistborn llama), would Luke be protected from both the cold and emotional allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd have to get him inside a living one.

It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening.

Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

 

So, Pewter, Tin, Steel and Iron affect the Physical Realm, Copper, Brass, Bronze and Zinc affect the Cognitive Realm, and Cadmium, Bendally, Gold and Electrum tap into/access the Spiritual Realm. . . 

Hope that helps

[cosmos3108]

Ooo I like that a lot actually thank you!!!

[Jult]

14 hours ago, cosmos3108 said:

I do find the categories frustrating because most of the metal/alloy pairs are exact opposites other than pewter and tin

I think Tin gets misrepresented a lot. It's often referred to as enhanced or increased senses. But it's really increased sensitivity. Or, as I prefer to phrase it, weakened tolerances to certain stimuli.

Enhanced strength and weakened tolerance still aren't perfect opposites, but I think they fit better as a push/pull pair when you imagine them this way. It also fits a bit better with certain non-Mistborn Cosmere facts about these metals such as [incredibly minor Stormlight Archive non-plot spoiler]:

Spoiler

Pewter is used in Augmenter Fabrials. Whereas Tin is used in Diminisher Fabrials.