Why are Navigators special?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I am glad that Drominad has a fighting chance now, I really am. However, I am not completely sure about the ability of Navigators, in particular their exclusivity. It was mentioned in this very book that a bronze seeker could theoretically feel the pulses of the Knell, and that this power is repeatable in other cosmere magic systems. Not all of them, but it's not exactly uncommon. Furthermore, there must be other Navigators that are not from Drominad, else how would Star know to lament the fact that they needed one? I would think Scadrial at the very least would be hard at work industrializing that particular power considering their expansionist ways, or the Threnodites with their particular connection would have the inside track on using the Knell as a navigational beacon.

So am I missing something? Are the Trappers just better at it than everyone else? Are Seekers and others like them affected by the Emberdark in the same way radio and other systems like it are? Help me out guys.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

36 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I am glad that Drominad has a fighting chance now, I really am. However, I am not completely sure about the ability of Navigators, in particular their exclusivity. It was mentioned in this very book that a bronze seeker could theoretically feel the pulses of the Knell, and that this power is repeatable in other cosmere magic systems. Not all of them, but it's not exactly uncommon. Furthermore, there must be other Navigators that are not from Drominad, else how would Star know to lament the fact that they needed one? I would think Scadrial at the very least would be hard at work industrializing that particular power considering their expansionist ways, or the Threnodites with their particular connection would have the inside track on using the Knell as a navigational beacon.

So am I missing something? Are the Trappers just better at it than everyone else? Are Seekers and others like them affected by the Emberdark in the same way radio and other systems like it are? Help me out guys.

Because Seekers, and others that utilize a similar power, can sense pulses coming from the Grand Knell, the place where Ambition died and a 'Wound' was inflicted on the Spiritual Realm. The Knell is effectively the North Star/Pole of Shadesmar, allowing for limited navigation through the otherwise non-navigable Emberdark.

What Navigators do is take this a step further and can sense interruptions in the pulses, allowing them to sense new locations and landmarks through the Emberdark. Which will allow significantly easier exploration and traversal of Shadesmar, as otherwise most civilsations are stuck either following prediscovered routes that others are aware of, or blindly searching the Emberdark with no way of knowing where they heck they are or where they're going.

It's like the difference between navigating with nothing but a compass, and navigating with a sonar, I think?

Edit:

Navigators can also map out an entire Subastral very quickly, which is something that no one else can do anywhere nearly as easily.

So, maps of Shadesmar made by Navigators will be very thorough, precise and easy to make.

Edited August 11, 2025 by JustQuestin2004

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Okay thanks. I figured I was missing something.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So am I missing something? Are the Trappers just better at it than everyone else? Are Seekers and others like them affected by the Emberdark in the same way radio and other systems like it are? Help me out guys.

5 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

What Navigators do is take this a step further and can sense interruptions in the pulses, allowing them to sense new locations and landmarks through the Emberdark.

^This^

But also, it has been repeatedly shown that knowledge and Intent are very important in the Cosmere. Patji trained the Trappers to have this skill in Seeking:

Spoiler

 Ch 2:

Quote

. He carried with him compass, map, and sextant…but today, he didn’t reach for any of those.

Instead he dipped his hand into the water and closed his eyes, reading the lapping of the waves to judge his position. Once, those waves would have been good enough for any of the Eelakin, his people. These days, only the trappers learned the old arts, the arts of the grand navigators from long ago. It was a mark of pride to him that he almost never needed the compass, and he had yet to encounter a situation where he had to rely on the new sea charts

Ch: 33

Quote

THRUM.

He could feel them, physically, pushing against him, like…

Like waves.

He rummaged through his things, pulling out his notepad and charcoal. He sketched, not a picture, but the pattern of waves striking him. Just as they flowed between islands in specific ways, interacting, pushing against one another. He was reminded of the old string maps, which showed the interactions of waves around the Pantheon. An island would interrupt normal ocean swells, as would underwater ridges and chasms.

Just as he had been able to dip his hand into the water and get a sense of where he was—reading the whispers made by the ocean’s very heartbeat—could he read these waves?

Both birds moved to his shoulders, Rokke flying, Sak climbing up his clothing, using her beak for purchase. One on each shoulder, they watched his frantic motions, loops, and arcs, waveforms mashing together. To many people, it would look like a mash-up of bizarre scribbles. To him, it became a map.

For he could sense something interrupting the thrums.

Just as islands interrupted waves in the ocean, something interrupted these pulses. He’d have to travel more to make a complete map, but he could feel what wasn’t there. All because of years spent with his fingers in the water, learning to speak the language of the ocean. The abyss might not have the type of water he was used to, but it spoke the same language.

Dusk wiped tears from his eyes, wetting his fingers and charcoal. “I can see the way,” he whispered, sobbing openly. “I can see the way.”

 

Which, of course, also implies that a Seeker (or other sensing MoI) could learn to use their ability like this - once they know it is possible and understand the Intent of what they are trying to Sense. 

Hope that helps.

PS: I really wish they had been called Wayfinders rather than Navigators. . . 

Edited August 11, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

40 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Which, of course, also implies that a Seeker (or other sensing MoI) could learn to use their ability like this - once they know it is possible and understand the Intent of what they are trying to Sense. 

No doubt that the Scadrians are going to try. They'll probably hate having to rely on a bunch of 'barbarians' to find their way around, especially since with how their services work, the Drominadians will be able to know what everyone finds, which would be annoying for a military fascist state to have anyone else to learn of their discoveries. Would probably need an amped up Seeker to have enough range though.

Maybe Singers might be able to pull it off too? Maybe if they found a way to amplify their ability to sense Rhythms, maybe with a special Form? Songform?

43 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

PS: I really wish they had been called Wayfinders rather than Navigators. . . 

Oh man, that sounds way cooler than Navigators.

Here's hoping they'll have a rebrand by Era 4.

[LockDown Ammo he/him]

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Which, of course, also implies that a Seeker (or other sensing MoI) could learn to use their ability like this - once they know it is possible and understand the Intent of what they are trying to Sense. 

This. At that point sailors would have nearly obsolete in the their worlds, and those who did sail would be relying on modern technology, so that would not be a skillset that they would have learnt. The trappers were not afforded this luxury so they did learn.

7 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

No doubt that the Scadrians are going to try. They'll probably hate having to rely on a bunch of 'barbarians' to find their way around, especially since with how their services work, the Drominadians will be able to know what everyone finds, which would be annoying for a military fascist state to have anyone else to learn of their discoveries. Would probably need an amped up Seeker to have enough range though.

Scadrians will try but as long as the Navigators (or Wayfinders :D) do not let slip that they can also hear the Knell like them and just have further skills, Scadrians will not reach to that conclusion as most of them will think they have direct method with use of Investiture and they will not believe that such a backward society could have more skills than them.
But how would they know what everyone finds? It will only be used to navigate the Emberdark nothing beyond. Anything there will already be found by them first. For setting up base or navigating secretly they can probably set up a deal to buy a Navigator's secrecy, if they leak the information then that is bad for their trades as no one would trust them after that and will only use them for public out in daylight deals that is only to navigate to their planet and use it as an intermediate station. Not being able to trust them would also push others to desperation to find ways of navigation that again goes against Drominadian interest. So best for everyone to honour the deal.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

6 hours ago, LockDown Ammo said:

Scadrians will try but as long as the Navigators (or Wayfinders :D) do not let slip that they can also hear the Knell like them and just have further skills, Scadrians will not reach to that conclusion as most of them will think they have direct method with use of Investiture and they will not believe that such a backward society could have more skills than them.

The Scadrians, along with everyone else, will already know the Navigators can hear the Knell like a Seeker. But they don't know about the specifics, yet.

Chances are the Scadrians will believe that what the Navigators do is unique to their Invested Art instead of trying to train their own Seekers, they'll probably try to find a way to gain the Navigators abilities themselves, be it through Hemalurgy or Unsealed Feruchemy. Though they'll be very careful about this, so as to not gain unwanted attention.

Something I could see the Scadrians doing is staging a fake exploration, faking their ship being lost with all hands, while kidnapping their hired Navigator to take them to a blacksite to study their abilities.

6 hours ago, LockDown Ammo said:

But how would they know what everyone finds? It will only be used to navigate the Emberdark nothing beyond. Anything there will already be found by them first. For setting up base or navigating secretly they can probably set up a deal to buy a Navigator's secrecy, if they leak the information then that is bad for their trades as no one would trust them after that and will only use them for public out in daylight deals that is only to navigate to their planet and use it as an intermediate station. Not being able to trust them would also push others to desperation to find ways of navigation that again goes against Drominadian interest. So best for everyone to honour the deal.

The Navigators need to be with the expeditions to new places in the Emberdark in person to help with navigation, which means that they will likely be privy to whatever is found. If they try to keep Navigator locked up and treated like a prisoner the whole way that could lead to problems like the Navigator refusing to work or other Navigators refusing to be hired to avoid such treatment.

Sure, the Drominadians will keep whatever they oversee on the other world's expeditions a secret, that's just common sense, but it would definitely rankle the greater powers in the Cosmere to have to share any new discoveries that they want to keep private with an independent world who has no personal loyalty to them. Especially the Scadrians who are big on keeping useful secrets to themselves.

[Isilel]

22 hours ago, LockDown Ammo said:

At that point sailors would have nearly obsolete in the their worlds,

Sailing the seas was pretty much impossible on Scadrial during the millennium of the TLR era in the first place, since some parts of them were boiling and there was only human life around  both poles.

So, they didn't even have any low-tech sailing knowledge to forget. And they  definitely don't have proper mental framework to figure out how to train Seekers to replicate what the trappers can do. After all, even iRL very few cultures developed methods of sailing out of sight of land before the invention of the compass, the sextant and other navigational instruments.

That's supposing that it is even possible to teach Seekers to replicate the feat - there might be some subtle differences between the two powers that would preclude it.

It might be safer for Eelakin to let the Navigators themselves think that their abilities are entirely due to their special invested art, and the traditional trapper  training just made them worthy to receive it. I doubt that (m)any of them would have as deep an understanding of how it all works as Dusk.

Edited August 12, 2025 by Isilel

[LockDown Ammo he/him]

On 8/12/2025 at 7:40 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

The Scadrians, along with everyone else, will already know the Navigators can hear the Knell like a Seeker. But they don't know about the specifics, yet.

How will they know that they can hear the Knell? Did Dusk mention it to them? As far as I remember he only told Starling... maybe I am forgetting something.

On 8/12/2025 at 7:40 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Something I could see the Scadrians doing is staging a fake exploration, faking their ship being lost with all hands, while kidnapping their hired Navigator to take them to a blacksite to study their abilities.

The other Navigators should be able to locate them through the Embderdark like they locate Islands. So they would realise what happened.

On 8/12/2025 at 7:40 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Sure, the Drominadians will keep whatever they oversee on the other world's expeditions a secret, that's just common sense, but it would definitely rankle the greater powers in the Cosmere to have to share any new discoveries that they want to keep private with an independent world who has no personal loyalty to them. Especially the Scadrians who are big on keeping useful secrets to themselves.

Hmmm. Maybe the Scadrians can have a deal which requires them to wipe their memories of the expedition? (Have them stored it in an Unsealed Metalmind, check if they included entire Memory and then throw it away)

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

4 hours ago, LockDown Ammo said:

How will they know that they can hear the Knell? Did Dusk mention it to them? As far as I remember he only told Starling... maybe I am forgetting something.

He mentioned it to Starling alone at first, but later said it in front of Dajer's drone, who said "That's impossible for filthy savages to be better than us in anyway!" or something along those lines.

Then he and half his crew got eaten by the local Godsnek. But either way, it will be common knowlede that Navigators are like Seekers, they have to be to do what they do. It's not rocket science. Especially to future societies that already built their own rockets.

4 hours ago, LockDown Ammo said:

The other Navigators should be able to locate them through the Embderdark like they locate Islands. So they would realise what happened.

Aluminum box for kidnapping? 

Probably standard practice for Worldhopping human trafficking.

4 hours ago, LockDown Ammo said:

Hmmm. Maybe the Scadrians can have a deal which requires them to wipe their memories of the expedition? (Have them stored it in an Unsealed Metalmind, check if they included entire Memory and then throw it away)

It'd require consent, and if the Navigators say no then what can they do? They can't not have Navigators working for them.

The Drominadians hold the cards right now, they're too important to not accommodate, too important to mess with for fear of antagonizing the other powers in the Cosmere. Besides, it'd be smart for the Drominadians to use this opportunity to learn as much of the Cosmere as they possibly can.