Adonalsium Stuff (If somebody could explain why I'm wrong that'd be great)

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, IlliterateDragon said:

I don't know how to quote specific topics,

Please see the SHARDER FAQ for tips on quoting and multi-quoting posts and topics.

7 minutes ago, IlliterateDragon said:

so far the only person to have altered a shard's intent has been Dalinar.

Nope - Ati filtered Ruin into Entropy millenia before Dalinar. WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Is there or will there be a shard for Entropy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That was/is Ruin.

An Evening with Brandon Sanderson (Feb. 1, 2017)

Quote

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

 

Hope that helps

[ThroughTheLivingIlliterate He/Him]

Well, I did not know that. But still, something can be said about the way that Dalinar was able to accomplish that, especially after only holding the shard for such a short time. Considering that the Ruin to Entropy took many years.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

13 minutes ago, IlliterateDragon said:

Well, I did not know that. But still, something can be said about the way that Dalinar was able to accomplish that, especially after only holding the shard for such a short time. Considering that the Ruin to Entropy took many years.

Although Honor had a lot of time to gain sentience, and sentience is a lot easier to reason (pun intended) with

[ThroughTheLivingIlliterate He/Him]

8 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Although Honor had a lot of time to gain sentience, and sentience is a lot easier to reason (pun intended) with

But sentience that has literally just been stewing in its inherent distrust of humans?

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

40 minutes ago, IlliterateDragon said:

But sentience that has literally just been stewing in its inherent distrust of humans?

Sentience that Dalinar was still able to talk to and reason with, sentience that isn't a glob of intent incapable of any real change. Honor has also been stewing over humanities actions ever since it lost it's vessel (possibly even while it still had its vessel) and Dalinar provided background for a pattern it had seen apear. There was a lot happening to Honor, Dalinar was just the last domino set in place, and still only part-way through.

[Shatter He/Him]

2 hours ago, IlliterateDragon said:

Well since we are talking about the nature of the intents of shards, how exactly were these intents formed? We know that spren are based off of people's view of the values they represent, but shards seem not to quite match up with this. I mean the human idea of honor is much different than the forming of bonds between people. So how exactly were these intents formed?

It is the singular Intent of Honor. All the Intents were formed at The Shattering. The aspect of honour in humans contains the Intents of Mercy (Mercy + Honor = Compassionate Justice) and Devotion (Devotion + Honor = Ethical Responsibility).

1 hour ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Although Honor had a lot of time to gain sentience, and sentience is a lot easier to reason (pun intended) with

It takes about 3000 years, for a Shard to gain basic sentience, I guess.

[ThroughTheLivingIlliterate He/Him]

17 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Sentience that Dalinar was still able to talk to and reason with, sentience that isn't a glob of intent incapable of any real change. Honor has also been stewing over humanities actions ever since it lost it's vessel (possibly even while it still had its vessel) and Dalinar provided background for a pattern it had seen apear. There was a lot happening to Honor, Dalinar was just the last domino set in place, and still only part-way through.

But it can change. Entropy, am I right? (Pun Intended)

2 minutes ago, Shatter said:

It is the singular Intent of Honor. All the Intents were formed at The Shattering. The aspect of honour in humans contains the Intents of Mercy (Mercy + Honor = Compassionate Justice) and Devotion (Devotion + Honor = Ethical Responsibility).

I wanted to know what defined the intent. Human ideas or something else?

 

Edited November 12, 2025 by IlliterateDragon

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 hour ago, IlliterateDragon said:

But it can change. Entropy, am I right? (Pun Intended)

I wanted to know what defined the intent. Human ideas or something else?

 

What?

[ThroughTheLivingIlliterate He/Him]

23 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

What?

Ruin was able to change, and it wasn't sentient.

[Returned he/him]

6 minutes ago, IlliterateDragon said:

Ruin was able to change, and it wasn't sentient.

Ati was the one responsible for the change:

Quote

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

We don't really know how the specific Shards that came out of the Shattering were defined nor how the vessels chose which they'd take up. The Shards seem to represent abstractions and are not well defined by single words or narrow concepts. Ruin represented/was/is a lot of things, including destruction and entropy (among others). I would describe entropy as the aspect of Ruin which Ati emphasized, and he did so in a way that made it the most prominent expression of Ruin. Sazed is facing a similar issue less successfully (he has wanted to be Harmony but is slipping into Discord instead), so it's not just will but will and successful effort that matter.

A Shard becoming sapient itself isn't something we have a lot of details about. Presumably it would exercise its own preference for what elements of its own nature will be the primary, outward-facing ones. But we don't know much about what ideas, values, or patterns of thought a sapient Shard would have compared to a human or dragon. I'm not even sure that a self-aware Shard's expression of itself would be recognizable (or need to be recognizable) to humans as appropriate to the Shard's nature. But a Shard can be influenced by its vessel's perception as well as its own:

Spoiler

Quote

yulerule

So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Ambition, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinate. It's not-- It doesn't fit the pattern.

Brandon Sanderson

So I don't really look as something as Latinate or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually.

yulerule

But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, they're still more regular English. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor.

yulerule

So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not Hatred [instead of Odium?] 

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's Intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

I don't think that Shards are malleable in the same way that spren are, where human conception fundamentally changes them. Spren exist in the cognitive realm, where thought and conception are the basis of existence. They are investiture shaped by the ideas of other beings. The Shards do not seem to be fundamentally cognitive in that way, at least so far. But that could be for a lot of reasons, including the sheer scale of a Shard versus a spren.

[ThroughTheLivingIlliterate He/Him]

16 minutes ago, Returned said:

Ati was the one responsible for the change:

We don't really know how the specific Shards that came out of the Shattering were defined nor how the vessels chose which they'd take up. The Shards seem to represent abstractions and are not well defined by single words or narrow concepts. Ruin represented/was/is a lot of things, including destruction and entropy (among others). I would describe entropy as the aspect of Ruin which Ati emphasized, and he did so in a way that made it the most prominent expression of Ruin. Sazed is facing a similar issue less successfully (he has wanted to be Harmony but is slipping into Discord instead), so it's not just will but will and successful effort that matter.

A Shard becoming sapient itself isn't something we have a lot of details about. Presumably it would exercise its own preference for what elements of its own nature will be the primary, outward-facing ones. But we don't know much about what ideas, values, or patterns of thought a sapient Shard would have compared to a human or dragon. I'm not even sure that a self-aware Shard's expression of itself would be recognizable (or need to be recognizable) to humans as appropriate to the Shard's nature. But a Shard can be influenced by its vessel's perception as well as its own:

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I don't think that Shards are malleable in the same way that spren are, where human conception fundamentally changes them. Spren exist in the cognitive realm, where thought and conception are the basis of existence. They are investiture shaped by the ideas of other beings. The Shards do not seem to be fundamentally cognitive in that way, at least so far. But that could be for a lot of reasons, including the sheer scale of a Shard versus a spren.

Thanks, that helped. Honestly, I was just putting the question out there, but this has given me some new insight.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 hour ago, IlliterateDragon said:

Ruin was able to change, and it wasn't sentient.

Through thousands of millions of years

[ThroughTheLivingIlliterate He/Him]

20 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Through thousands of millions of years

It still changed. Time isn't really a constraint to shards though so it doesn't really matter how long it takes. What I really care about are the interesting circumstances that lead up to Dalinar's ascension to the shard and, ultimately, him abdicating.

[Nitpicking]

6 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Through thousands of millions of years

No. Thousands. The Shattering was only about 10,000 years before Elantris. Not billions of years.

[ThroughTheLivingIlliterate He/Him]

11 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

No. Thousands. The Shattering was only about 10,000 years before Elantris. Not billions of years.

I'm feeling severely outmatched by your people's knowledge. I'm getting rather confused now.

But I did reread Dalinar's POV during the actual contest, and what stuck out to me was

1. During Dalinar's vision, Nohadon had a strange connection with child Honor

2. Technically, Honor as a shard is now influenced by the human idea of honor, but not as with spren, more as observing and forming his own opinion on it

3. Gavinor's character arc in this story is strangely reminiscent to Honor (as a sentient being). I could explain this view point more, but I don't know if it has been discussed before.

4. It is also shown that Honor had some sentience while Tanavast held it. The book mentions that the power had tried to work along with him, but Tanavast was too far out of line.

That's all I can really remember right now

 

Edited November 13, 2025 by IlliterateDragon

[QuantumAce]

On 11/10/2025 at 5:38 AM, Xanpheon said:

You've got to bear in mind, not only do have to deal with the contradictory nature of opposed shards - Ruin and Preservation, for example - but you also have to deal with the fact that the various intents of the Shards can involve hating the idea of fusing with others (Odium, for example, and likely Autonomy). 

I suspect that not only is reforming something shattered, it may be impossible at this point. Splintered Shards are still the same intent, nominally. The various shards are very explicitly not, anymore.

I wonder if the dawnshards could be used to overcome the conflicting intent of individual shards...

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, QuantumAce said:

I wonder if the dawnshards could be used to overcome the conflicting intent of individual shards...

I have to assume that they could, though their role in the Shattering in the first place might mean that they only work in the other direction. I'm increasingly more interested in what the Dawnshards are and how they work than I am the Shards of Adonalsium.

I don't think that there are many issues with the Shards recombining, as @Xanpheon suggested upthread. Vessels might prefer not to combine (like Rayse), and Autonomy might strongly prefer to remain apart (I don't recall Odium-the-Shard caring at all about remaining separate), but otherwise I don't get the impression that Shards' individual preferences are all that well formed nor enforced. Even if they were unhappy (whatever that means for a Shard), it seems like they still find a balance. If Preservation and Ruin can do it, any Shards should be able to do it.

[Clarkmon22 He/Him]

23 hours ago, Returned said:

I have to assume that they could, though their role in the Shattering in the first place might mean that they only work in the other direction. I'm increasingly more interested in what the Dawnshards are and how they work than I am the Shards of Adonalsium.

Well, we know that the Dawnshards were used to shape roshar, do we not? that is something other than destruction. 

 

23 hours ago, Returned said:

If Preservation and Ruin can do it, any Shards should be able to do it.

Can preservation and ruin do it? with Discord on the way?

On 11/12/2025 at 12:04 PM, IlliterateDragon said:

But it can change. Entropy, am I right? (Pun Intended)

I wanted to know what defined the intent. Human ideas or something else?

 

I think that, however Adonalsium got the power, his Intents were the ones that shaped the shards, as nothing else would matter to a friggin omniscient deity (I mean not fully omniscient, but still.)

[Returned he/him]

44 minutes ago, Clarkmon22 said:

Well, we know that the Dawnshards were used to shape roshar, do we not? that is something other than destruction. 

The details are hazy on what the Dawnshards did on Roshar (as far as I know). What I'm thinking is more along the lines of them working like a hammer: definitely it can do more than destroy, but if you use one on a window you can break it apart but probably not put it back together. No particular reason to think that that analogy is right, it's just one of the possibilities I've imagined for them.

44 minutes ago, Clarkmon22 said:

Can preservation and ruin do it? with Discord on the way?

Of course they can. The point is that they have a balance as one Shard, and in that regard Discord is just as valid as Harmony. Even if the theme is contradiction (which I maintain is more about Sazed than the Shards, but I digress) the point is that they are one, combined Shard that can even have a theme, as opposed to a fusion which cannot hold. It will be interesting if sliding into Discord does cause such an issue, though, and the Shards shatter themselves apart. I haven't really thought about that possibility before, I'll definitely mull it over.

Edited November 14, 2025 by Returned