Honor's Truest Surge

[Mack]

Something I've been thinking about. In Rhythm of War the Sibling refers to Adhesion as "Honor's Truest Surge." In the same book Raboniel calls it not a true Surge. I can understand that argument since many entities in the Cosmere can manipulate Connection to a degree, but this got me wondering. Is there any references of certain Shards having more/high affinity to certain surges? Like is it stated anywhere that Regrowth is Cultivation's Surge for example? Or Division being Ruin's? 

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

17 hours ago, Mack said:

Something I've been thinking about. In Rhythm of War the Sibling refers to Adhesion as "Honor's Truest Surge." In the same book Raboniel calls it not a true Surge. I can understand that argument since many entities in the Cosmere can manipulate Connection to a degree, but this got me wondering. Is there any references of certain Shards having more/high affinity to certain surges? Like is it stated anywhere that Regrowth is Cultivation's Surge for example? Or Division being Ruin's? 

I don't think any shards have certain "affinities" to any given surge, as there are only 9 surges: Gravitiation, Division, Abrasion, Progression (the one you called regrowth), Illumination, Transformation, Transportation, Cohesion, and Tension. There are 16 shards, meaning that (as far as we know) they would not have an affinity to any specific surge.

Why Adhesion would have been called "Honor's Truest Surge" is because it is unique to Honor, making it the surge of honor, yet also not a true surge.

[Argenti he/him]

18 hours ago, Mack said:

Something I've been thinking about. In Rhythm of War the Sibling refers to Adhesion as "Honor's Truest Surge." In the same book Raboniel calls it not a true Surge. I can understand that argument since many entities in the Cosmere can manipulate Connection to a degree, but this got me wondering. Is there any references of certain Shards having more/high affinity to certain surges? Like is it stated anywhere that Regrowth is Cultivation's Surge for example? Or Division being Ruin's? 

It's never been said, but its possible. Regrowth is probably the closest to Cultivation, but Division would be close to her as well. I think its a sliding scale between the two shards. I don't think every shard has their own surge, because, like iced out penguin said, 16 shards and 10 surges. It's my opinion that Odium had lied to Raboniel, and straight up could have granted adhesion, but choose not to (I mean, depending on how adhesion works for fused, they'd be terrifying.) Bonded Ones would be a threat to Odium- one might even be able to steal the Shard from Rayse.

 

[majin63]

Odium has in the past on Ashyn given the Adhesion surge to Ishar to make it a bondsmith (Wat ch64), it is not known why he does not do it on Roshar

It's possible that Honor chose 10 surge since that's its power number and Odium went for 9

It's also a possibility that Shards just chose to limit the available power  but we don't know if for example Preservation would have gone for 16 surge 

remember that what we know is what the characters know, mistborn power between era 1 and 2 tell this (even if it is the Lord rulers who limited knowledge)

[clowncarcrash]

I'm not sure if the Shards would have distinguished surges, because their investiture materializes completely differently. 

 

If I recall, Raboniel says its not a true surge because a true surge would be of both Cultivation and Honor. 

 

I was thinking about why. I was thinking, hey, maybe restriction is something that cultivation doesn't really like because you want room to grow. But then i was thinking of tree staking. I did a google search and apparently on /r/gardening tree staking is very controversial, lol. SO yeah I guess maybe thats why Cultivation cant sign off on it. 

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, clowncarcrash said:

I'm not sure if the Shards would have distinguished surges, because their investiture materializes completely differently. 

 

If I recall, Raboniel says its not a true surge because a true surge would be of both Cultivation and Honor. 

 

I was thinking about why. I was thinking, hey, maybe restriction is something that cultivation doesn't really like because you want room to grow. But then i was thinking of tree staking. I did a google search and apparently on /r/gardening tree staking is very controversial, lol. SO yeah I guess maybe thats why Cultivation cant sign off on it. 

The nightwatcher can grant it, so I'm not convinced cultivation is against it.

[clowncarcrash]

8 hours ago, Argenti said:

The nightwatcher can grant it, so I'm not convinced cultivation is against it.

I was trying to figure out who/what this is regarding, is this referring to this? :

There is a rumor about a man who made every person he touched fall upwards ever since he visited the Old Magic.^[2]

[Argenti he/him]

4 minutes ago, clowncarcrash said:

I was trying to figure out who/what this is regarding, is this referring to this? :

There is a rumor about a man who made every person he touched fall upwards ever since he visited the Old Magic.^[2]

I meant those bonded to the Nightwatcher, a spren only of Cultivation, can grant Adhesion.

[clowncarcrash]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

I meant those bonded to the Nightwatcher, a spren only of Cultivation, can grant Adhesion.

Oh duh!!! I was thinking exclusively of the old magic i forgot she was part of a bondsmith bond. I'm not sure if I would make that conclusion though.  The nightwatcher is a splinter of cultivation and the stormfather is a splitner of honor...but I think thats probably unrelated to whatever makes them special to give bondsmith nahel bonds. 

[Nitpicking]

22 hours ago, Argenti said:

The nightwatcher can grant it, so I'm not convinced cultivation is against it.

When does the Nightwatcher "grant" the Surge of Adhesion?

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, Nitpicking said:

When does the Nightwatcher "grant" the Surge of Adhesion?

13 hours ago, Argenti said:

I meant those bonded to the Nightwatcher, a spren only of Cultivation, can grant Adhesion.

Her Bondsmiths.

11 hours ago, clowncarcrash said:

Oh duh!!! I was thinking exclusively of the old magic i forgot she was part of a bondsmith bond. I'm not sure if I would make that conclusion though.  The nightwatcher is a splinter of cultivation and the stormfather is a splitner of honor...but I think thats probably unrelated to whatever makes them special to give bondsmith nahel bonds. 

It's possible. The old spren could grant it as well, but I think it would be silly to say that Cultivation can't grant Adhesion.

[Nitpicking]

@Argenti, right, but I don't understand why you say that Bondsmiths of the Nightwatcher can grant Adhesion. Bondsmiths don't grant Surges, that I can tell, except maybe to their squires.

[Argenti he/him]

35 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

@Argenti, right, but I don't understand why you say that Bondsmiths of the Nightwatcher can grant Adhesion. Bondsmiths don't grant Surges, that I can tell, except maybe to their squires.

.... the nightwatcher, grants adhesion, to her bondsmiths. Through a bond. The bondsmith gets adhesion from a spren of pure cultivation.

[clowncarcrash]

7 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

@Argenti, right, but I don't understand why you say that Bondsmiths of the Nightwatcher can grant Adhesion. Bondsmiths don't grant Surges, that I can tell, except maybe to their squires.

Bondsmiths don't grant surges but they have the surges. So if Nitpicking bonded with the Nightwatcher, a spren of pure cultivation, you'd have access to that surge in spite of the NIghtwacher being a spren of pure cultivation.

 

Granted, I personally might argue, well thats the nahel bond granting the surge and not really the Nightwatcher, but I'm uncertain if the text supports that position. 

[Nitpicking]

For some reason, my brain unthinkingly assumed that a Nightwatcher Bondsmith wouldn't have Adhesion. There is no textual support for that, of course.

Then again, we haven't met a Nightwatcher Bondsmith yet.

[Brgst13]

Odium can 100% grant Adhesion.  We see this with Yelig-nar, where Amaram can use Adhesion after bonding with the Unmade.  Since Yelig-nar is a Splinter of Odium, by extension Odium can grant it as well.

[dadmehr]

I personally think that since honor and cultivation have created surges, only they have surges of their own. Adhesion for honor and regrowth for cultivation. (As each have their own spren, since they have created them)