I Wasn't A Fan Of Warbreaker CONTENT WARNING: DISCUSSIONS OF SA

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

Now that I'm on the Shard I can waffle about my book opinions
Wooooo

Anyways I didn't care for Warbreaker. I liked everything with Lightsong and Siri, I think both were great characters and both plotlines were engaging. Siri's relationship with Susebron felt very natural and I was a fan of their dynamic. The only plot complaint I have is that the ending was a bit rushed. I wish we'd gotten to see the battle between the Phantoms and Lifeless or at least gotten scenes of Vivenna and Siri saying goodbye and just generally winding down. I think the book could have used a few extra chapters at the end. One of the two things that sunk the book for me was Vivenna. She was just really obnoxious and not at all compelling to read, it reminded me of a more extreme case of Way-Of-Kings-Shallan-Syndrome. I know this is the beginning of her journey and arc.

Stormlight Archive spoiler below:

Spoiler

 And by the time we got to Oathbringer I really liked her.

I imagine we'll see her journey explored in Nightblood, but as it is in Warbreaker I just really didn't like her. And now for the second thing. It's a really small moment but it stood out to me. So 
 

Spoiler

Vivenna's been betrayed and was on the edge of death, having been captured and brought to safety by Vasher.

This scene is right when she wakes up. She hasn't spoken to Vasher up until now so this is their very first interaction where he wasn't trying to kidnap her.

 

Spoiler

She looked down at herself. She wasn’t wearing her shift anymore, but instead had on a set of soft cotton sleeping garments. Her body was clean. She raised a hand to her hair, feeling that the tangles and mats were gone. It was still white. She felt so strange to be clean. “Did you rape me?” she asked quietly. He snorted. “A woman who’s been to Denth’s bed holds no temptation for me.”

This storming guy's first reaction to that isn't to say something about how no, assault is despicable and she's safe or anything like that. His first reaction is "No, I didn't assault you because you were unclean." This line highhandedly killed the book for me. Not really sure what Vasher/Brandon was going for here.

 

Edited May 2, 2025 by SpartanBrigade

[The Great Wyver She/Her]

I mean, I don't think Warbreaker was really bad or really good (Yes, the ending was definetely rushed and some scenes are . . . for mature audiences. . .) but those are valid reasons. A bit unrelated, but I also think that Tonk Fah could've had a better name, too.

[Entr0pic He/him]

6 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Now that I'm on the Shard I can waffle about my book opinions
Wooooo

Anyways I didn't care for Warbreaker. I liked everything with Lightsong and Siri, I think both were great characters and both plotlines were engaging. Siri's relationship with Susebron felt very natural and I was a fan of their dynamic. The only plot complaint I have is that the ending was a bit rushed. I wish we'd gotten to see the battle between the Phantoms and Lifeless or at least gotten scenes of Vivenna and Siri saying goodbye and just generally winding down. I think the book could have used a few extra chapters at the end. One of the two things that sunk the book for me was Vivenna. She was just really obnoxious and not at all compelling to read, it reminded me of a more extreme case of Way-OfKings-Shallan-Syndrome. I know this is the beginning of her journey and arc, and by the time we get to Oathbringer I really liked her. I imagine we'll see her journey explored in Nightblood, but as it is in Warbreaker I just really didn't like her. And now for the second thing. It's a really small moment but it stood out to me. So 
 

  Hide contents

Vivenna's been betrayed and was on the edge of death, having been captured and brought to safety by Vasher.

This scene is right when she wakes up. She hasn't spoken to Vasher up until now so this is their very first interaction where he wasn't trying to kidnap her.

 

  Hide contents

She looked down at herself. She wasn’t wearing her shift anymore, but instead had on a set of soft cotton sleeping garments. Her body was clean. She raised a hand to her hair, feeling that the tangles and mats were gone. It was still white. She felt so strange to be clean. “Did you rape me?” she asked quietly. He snorted. “A woman who’s been to Denth’s bed holds no temptation for me.”

This storming guy's first reaction to that isn't to say something about how no, assault is despicable and she's safe or anything like that. His first reaction is "No, I didn't assault you because you were unclean." This line highhandedly killed the book for me. Not really sure what Vasher/Brandon was going for here.

 

I very much agree with this, especially the parts with Viviana. Her chapters were an absolute slog to get through. 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

27 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Now that I'm on the Shard I can waffle about my book opinions
Wooooo

Anyways I didn't care for Warbreaker. I liked everything with Lightsong and Siri, I think both were great characters and both plotlines were engaging. Siri's relationship with Susebron felt very natural and I was a fan of their dynamic. The only plot complaint I have is that the ending was a bit rushed. I wish we'd gotten to see the battle between the Phantoms and Lifeless or at least gotten scenes of Vivenna and Siri saying goodbye and just generally winding down. I think the book could have used a few extra chapters at the end. One of the two things that sunk the book for me was Vivenna. She was just really obnoxious and not at all compelling to read, it reminded me of a more extreme case of Way-Of-Kings-Shallan-Syndrome. I know this is the beginning of her journey and arc, and by the time we get to Oathbringer I really liked her. I imagine we'll see her journey explored in Nightblood, but as it is in Warbreaker I just really didn't like her. And now for the second thing. It's a really small moment but it stood out to me. So 
 

  Hide contents

Vivenna's been betrayed and was on the edge of death, having been captured and brought to safety by Vasher.

This scene is right when she wakes up. She hasn't spoken to Vasher up until now so this is their very first interaction where he wasn't trying to kidnap her.

 

  Hide contents

She looked down at herself. She wasn’t wearing her shift anymore, but instead had on a set of soft cotton sleeping garments. Her body was clean. She raised a hand to her hair, feeling that the tangles and mats were gone. It was still white. She felt so strange to be clean. “Did you rape me?” she asked quietly. He snorted. “A woman who’s been to Denth’s bed holds no temptation for me.”

This storming guy's first reaction to that isn't to say something about how no, assault is despicable and she's safe or anything like that. His first reaction is "No, I didn't assault you because you were unclean." This line highhandedly killed the book for me. Not really sure what Vasher/Brandon was going for here.

 

I liked Warbreaker, and Vivenna was deinitly hard to read, but my least favorite part were the... adult scenes.

[#1 Taln Fan he/him]

@SpartanBrigade Since this is the Warbreaker forum, please put any Oathbringer spoilers inside a spoiler box.

(Oathbringer)

Spoiler

The fact that vivenna is in Stormlight is a pretty big spoiler to someone who has just read Warbreaker, so any mentions of that should be inside a spoiler box.

 

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

3 minutes ago, #1 Taln Fan said:

@SpartanBrigade Since this is the Warbreaker forum, please put any Oathbringer spoilers inside a spoiler box.

(Oathbringer)

  Hide contents

The fact that vivenna is in Stormlight is a pretty big spoiler to someone who has just read Warbreaker, so any mentions of that should be inside a spoiler box.

 

Fixed, thanks for letting me know!

[#1 Taln Fan he/him]

4 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Fixed, thanks for letting me know!

Thanks! And just as a general rule, make sure to specifically clarify what the box contains spoilers for, so people know what they're clicking. (Especially since some people just use spoiler boxes to put longer messages in)
For example, you can say
(Oathbringer)

Spoiler

Kaladin is cool

 

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

2 hours ago, #1 Taln Fan said:

Thanks! And just as a general rule, make sure to specifically clarify what the box contains spoilers for, so people know what they're clicking. (Especially since some people just use spoiler boxes to put longer messages in)
For example, you can say
(Oathbringer)

  Reveal hidden contents

Kaladin is cool

 

(Oathbringer)

Spoiler

Agree

 

[The Great Wyver She/Her]

Oathbringer

Spoiler

I also agree

 

[Treamayne]

On 5/1/2025 at 2:14 PM, SpartanBrigade said:

Anyways I didn't care for Warbreaker. I liked everything with Lightsong and Siri, I think both were great characters and both plotlines were engaging. Siri's relationship with Susebron felt very natural and I was a fan of their dynamic. The only plot complaint I have is that the ending was a bit rushed. I wish we'd gotten to see the battle between the Phantoms and Lifeless or at least gotten scenes of Vivenna and Siri saying goodbye and just generally winding down. I think the book could have used a few extra chapters at the end. One of the two things that sunk the book for me was Vivenna. She was just really obnoxious and not at all compelling to read, it reminded me of a more extreme case of Way-Of-Kings-Shallan-Syndrome. I know this is the beginning of her journey and arc.

If you have not yet done so, consider reading the Annotations - they explain why Sanderson made some decisions he did (or did not) - he fully expected Vivenna to be the least-favored of the Warbreaker Main Characters (much like certain Viewpoint Characters in Elantris).

On 5/1/2025 at 2:14 PM, SpartanBrigade said:

This storming guy's first reaction to that isn't to say something about how no, assault is despicable and she's safe or anything like that. His first reaction is "No, I didn't assault you because you were unclean." This line highhandedly killed the book for me. Not really sure what Vasher/Brandon was going for here.

Annotations to Ch 43:

Spoiler

Vivenna Awakes in Vasher’s Care

Vivenna, as a character, was divided into two parts in my head. There was the Vivenna of the first half of the book, who was haughty and misled, though determined and self-confident. Then there was the break in the middle, where everything was taken away from her. Now we’re into Vivenna’s second half, the confused and uncertain Vivenna who has to essentially start all over.

Her plot is a contrast to Siri’s plot. Siri’s growth is more gradual; she doesn’t have an event like Vivenna’s time on the streets to make a focus for her plotline. The depth of growth the changes afford Vivenna made her a very interesting character to write; I’m sorry that she’s generally people’s least favorite character. But that wasn’t all that unanticipated. When presented with a large group of characters, many of whom were amusing or mysterious, then dropping one major character in who had a serious growth arc but started out less likable … well, you expect readers to latch on to other characters. By this point in the story, they’re not used to caring about Vivenna as much as the others, so I think that her drama isn’t as powerful for them—which means she doesn’t have time to earn their affection, even when she starts changing and growing.

Of course, part of me still sees the Vivenna of the sequel, where she can continue her growth and learning. I think she’ll be a great character for that book, if I ever write it. Though I worry about doing so and making people disappointed that I’m writing about her rather than Siri.

 

<snip>
 

Vivenna’s Thoughts on Being a Drab

A lot of what happened to Vivenna—how she saw the world and how she acted—was influenced by being a Drab. As I’ve said before, the Hallandren aren’t right when they say losing your Breath does nothing to you. Most Drabs struggle with depression, and the fact that they’re almost always sick doesn’t help either.

And so, Vivenna’s time on the streets was artificially made more dreary and terrible than it truly was. Being a Drab, being sick, the shock of being betrayed—these things combined to give you the person you saw in the previous two chapters. It’s a way to cut a corner. I wanted Vivenna to feel like she’d been on the streets for months, but for it only to have been a few weeks.

She is able to make her hair change colors again. This is a representation of the fact that she has started to pull out of the nightmare. 

As far as that specific line - keep in mind the PoV for both characters at this stage. Vasher has no reason to not believe that Vivenna wasn't a willing conspirator to Denth's warmongering (and he admitedly has temper issues) and Vivenna has not yet even begun to deal with what her time on the streets has done to her - so she has already accostomed to just assuming the worst from the start.

I found the scene extremely powerful for how quickly and succinctly it portrays those two states of mind right at the beginning of the chapter.

Hope that helps

Edited May 8, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

41 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

If you have not yet done so, consider reading the Annotations - they explain why Sanderson made some decisions he did (or did not) - he fully expected Vivenna to be the least-favored of the Warbreaker Main Characters (much like certain Viewpoint Characters in Elantris).

Annotations to Ch 43:

  Hide contents

Vivenna Awakes in Vasher’s Care

Vivenna, as a character, was divided into two parts in my head. There was the Vivenna of the first half of the book, who was haughty and misled, though determined and self-confident. Then there was the break in the middle, where everything was taken away from her. Now we’re into Vivenna’s second half, the confused and uncertain Vivenna who has to essentially start all over.

Her plot is a contrast to Siri’s plot. Siri’s growth is more gradual; she doesn’t have an event like Vivenna’s time on the streets to make a focus for her plotline. The depth of growth the changes afford Vivenna made her a very interesting character to write; I’m sorry that she’s generally people’s least favorite character. But that wasn’t all that unanticipated. When presented with a large group of characters, many of whom were amusing or mysterious, then dropping one major character in who had a serious growth arc but started out less likable … well, you expect readers to latch on to other characters. By this point in the story, they’re not used to caring about Vivenna as much as the others, so I think that her drama isn’t as powerful for them—which means she doesn’t have time to earn their affection, even when she starts changing and growing.

Of course, part of me still sees the Vivenna of the sequel, where she can continue her growth and learning. I think she’ll be a great character for that book, if I ever write it. Though I worry about doing so and making people disappointed that I’m writing about her rather than Siri.

 

<snip>
 

Vivenna’s Thoughts on Being a Drab

A lot of what happened to Vivenna—how she saw the world and how she acted—was influenced by being a Drab. As I’ve said before, the Hallandren aren’t right when they say losing your Breath does nothing to you. Most Drabs struggle with depression, and the fact that they’re almost always sick doesn’t help either.

And so, Vivenna’s time on the streets was artificially made more dreary and terrible than it truly was. Being a Drab, being sick, the shock of being betrayed—these things combined to give you the person you saw in the previous two chapters. It’s a way to cut a corner. I wanted Vivenna to feel like she’d been on the streets for months, but for it only to have been a few weeks.

She is able to make her hair change colors again. This is a representation of the fact that she has started to pull out of the nightmare. 

As far as that specific line - keep in mind the PoV for both characters at this stage. Vasher has not reason to not believe that Vivenna wasn't a willing conspirator to Denth's warmongering (and he admitedly has temper issues) and Vivenna has not yet even begun to deal with what her time on the streets has done to her - so she has already accostomed to just assuming the worst from the start.

I found the scene extremely powerful for how quickly and succinctly it portrays those two states of mind right at the beginning of the chapter.

Hope that helps

I read the annotations right after finishing. I know why he chose to make certain decisions but that deists change the fact that they weren’t good decisions (in the case of Vasher’s line) and just not enjoyable (in the case of Vivenna).

Stormlight Spoiler:

Spoiler

I’m looking forward to reading Nightblood because I’ve seen the culmination of her character development in Oathbringer and it’s sick.

The way I see it is in Warbreaker she started in a place where she was very set in her ways. By the end she’s now in a place where she can start actually growing, arcing, and developing as a character. I imagine that’s what we’ll see in Nightblood. As a review of Warbreaker alone though, she’s still uncompelling and underdeveloped by the end and her chapters are a bit of a slog to get through as @Entr0picsaid. As for Vasher’s line

“Vivenna has not yet even begun to deal with what her time on the streets has done to her - so she has already accostomed to just assuming the worst from the start.” I agree 100%, that was what I got from it too. Additionally all Vasher has done so far is try to abduct or kill her so assuming his intentions are less than pure is totally fair. 

”Vasher has not reason to not believe that Vivenna wasn't a willing conspirator to Denth's warmongering (and he admitedly has temper issues)”

I know he had good reason to believe she was in on Denth’s plan but that doesn’t make any difference. There’s absolutely no justification for him saying that even if she had been in on the conspiracy. In a real world context, using anger issues as a justification for acting that way is incredibly dangerous and just not acceptable. There will never be a context in which that’s acceptable. I know Brandon’s authorial intent obviously wasn’t “hey Vasher is a r*pist” but that doesn’t change the fact that when it’s actually there in story it’s saying “hey Vasher is a r*pist”.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, SpartanBrigade said:

As a review of Warbreaker alone though, she’s still uncompelling and underdeveloped by the end and her chapters are a bit of a slog to get through as @Entr0picsaid. As for Vasher’s line

I can see that. Vivenna still is not my favorite viewpoint in the book, and I didn't enjoy her sections until the third or fourth reading of the book when I started to realize how well characterization was shown in her sections (even if the characterization is not heroic).

1 hour ago, SpartanBrigade said:

I know Brandon’s authorial intent obviously wasn’t “hey Vasher is a r*pist” but that doesn’t change the fact that when it’s actually there in story it’s saying “hey Vasher is a r*pist”.

I do not see how you get to that conclusion from that scene. At no point does Vasher say or imply she was taken advantage of (it's actually the opposite when he explains it a few paragraphs later) - she asked the question assuming the worst. He responded in anger, which is not acceptable (as you said) but does give insight into his character and faults. It is a very in-character response and highlights why he considers himself bad with people (he is). From a IRL perspective, should that kind of response be tolerated - no. From a storytelling perspective, does it highlight Vasher's faults and problems - yes.

I'm not saying you should change your opinion - your feelings are your own. I'm explaining why I do not agree so that others reading the thread can see both sides of the discussion.

Hope that helps

Edited May 2, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[TacoBellChoutaMeal]

I actually liked Vivenna so much more on the re-read. On the first go through, her chapters felt like a slog that distracted from Siri and LightSong. The second time around the bend, after knowing what Vivenna was in for in the back half of the novel, I appreciated her journey more. I think she’s the most developed character in Warbreaker. Maybe if you return to the book sometime later you’ll have a different perspective, who knows. It’s a bummer you didn’t like it as much on the first go through.