Consciousness and becoming a Cognitive shadow

[Oraiyu]

In the beginning of Secret History, as Kelsier is being drawn into the Beyond, Preservation shoves him into the Well (His perpendicularity) and prevents Kel from being drawn further. He is even restored from whatever the Beyond was doing to him until then.

I assert that this is when he became a Cognitive shadow, as before then he was just a regular dead person in transition.

Now, it’s pretty clear from the way many perceive a Cognitive shadow that a it is not the person themselves. It’s instead a sort of imprint in the Cognitive of what made up the person + lots of Investiture.

Quote

RoW chapter 16

”My soul”, Zahel said, “is like that fossil. Every part of my soul has been replaced with something new, though it happened in a flash for me.The soul I have now resembles the one I was born with , but it’s something else entirely.” ” I don’t understand.” ”I’m not surprised.” Zahel thought for a moment. “Imagine it this way. You know how you can make an imprint in crem, then let it dry, and fill the imprint with wax to create a copy of your original object? Well, that happened to my soul. When I died, I was drenched in power. So when my soul escaped, it left a duplicate. A kind of… fossil of a soul…”

…”The Heralds too,” Zahel said. “When they died, they left an imprint behind. Power that remembered being them…”

 

Quote

Khyrindor

You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term Cognitive Shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (Cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

linkhyrule5

Huh.

... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 20, 2017)

 

Quote

M:SH Part 1 Chapter 1

“Very well. Be Preserved, Kelsier. Survivor”
Something shoved him forward, and Kelsier merged with the light.
Moments later he blinked awake. He lay in the misty world still, but his body - or, well, his spirit - had reformed.

Upon thinking about it - I’ve come to the following theory: A CS is an imprint of all that made up the person until then - including their memory, etc, built until the time of transition. From the Cognitive shadow’s POV - the whole experience would probably be seamless. I assert that OG Kel (whatever that is) actually was drawn fully to the beyond. What we’re following in the book is an almost seamless experience from the POV of the Cognitive shadow. Preservation wasn’t Preserving actual Kelsier, because he could not really counter the pull of the Beyond. But he did Preserve Kelsier in the next best way - by helping him imprint a Cognitive shadow.

So there’s a version of Kelsier in the Beyond (whatever that means) and a version of Kelsier who continues the story in secret History.

This concept was sparked in part by the game SOMA [Spoilers]

Spoiler

In SOMA, your personality is copied and injected into a robot body. The game eventually reveals the the real you just went on living their life after the process, while you experienced a life, then a time jump when you went through the process, then suddenly woke up in a robot body. At the end of the game - the story literally follows the seamless experience of both the saved personality of the protagonist and the personality left behind to wander alone. It explores what each felt and why.

I’m interested to hear what y’all think about this idea.

Edited April 29, 2025 by Oraiyu
Highlight relevant parts of quote

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

I feel like there is a lot of epistemology and ontology that is weird about this notion. It feels Zahel has some kind of attachment to a Tolkien esque "Men's mortality is a blessing of a higher God that cannot be undone" but why he feels that way isn't being shown. 

There is a huge gap in the metaphysics of this situation that needs to be resolved: What is a soul? Often, the soul is simply the thing which is aware of the thoughts a person experiences as their own, when I think "an apple" the thing witnessing the thought of "an apple" could be called my soul, but then how is this different from the mind? In fact, the entire notion of an ontology where the mind is not the soul has always felt faulty to me, and I thus feel the soul is a false category; it is a thing like a four sided triangle or the corners of a circle. We can name them, but they can't exist.

Suppose it is the reverse. Suppose the thing which is in the Beyond is the copy of the form of a collection of thoughts and potentials that whatever exists there copies to itself before the original can disperse as the material of the body will disperse after death. Then Kelsier as he exists in the Cosmere is the original version of himself which never had the repeating pattern that defines Kelsier-ness stop enough that the Beyond's process of making a copy would take it's own version of him. The sensation of "going into the Beyond" may simply be something injected into the mind as it is copied for the sake of making the copies feel more continuous and thus less prone to existential crisis.

Edited April 29, 2025 by ParaTulip
Whoops, hit ctrl-enter while amending the last line.

[Oraiyu]

13 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

I feel like there is a lot of epistemology and ontology that is weird about this notion. It feels Zahel has some kind of attachment to a Tolkien esque "Men's mortality is a blessing of a higher God that cannot be undone" but why he feels that way isn't being shown. 

There is a huge gap in the metaphysics of this situation that needs to be resolved: What is a soul? Often, the soul is simply the thing which is aware of the thoughts a person experiences as their own, when I think "an apple" the thing witnessing the thought of "an apple" could be called my soul, but then how is this different from the mind? In fact, the entire notion of an ontology where the mind is not the soul has always felt faulty to me, and I thus feel the soul is a false category; it is a thing like a four sided triangle or the corners of a circle. We can name them, but they can't exist.

Suppose it is the reverse. Suppose the thing which is in the Beyond is the copy of the form of a collection of thoughts and potentials that whatever exists there copies to itself before the original can disperse as the material of the body will disperse after death. Then Kelsier as he exists in the Cosmere is the original version of himself which never had the repeating pattern that defines Kelsier-ness stop enough that the Beyond's process of making a copy would take it's own version of him. The sensation of "going into the Beyond" may simply be something injected into the mind as it is copied for the sake of making the copies feel more continuous and thus less prone to existential crisis.

I am wide open to the possibilities and ideas you present.

I've thought about the nature of the soul in the Cosmere quite a bit - to no clear, defined conclusion or understanding. More and more I'm considering just not using "soul" at all, rather using more specific terms like Spiritweb and mind / Cognitive aspect.

Brandon, in the WoB I mentioned - does point out that this is a topic debated in-universe. 

I specifically did not mention a soul, partially for reasons along the lines of thought similar to what you've put forth.

 

The thing is, despite this, whenever being drawn to the beyond is clarified a little, it seems that the mind and/or Cognitive aspect is drawn to the Beyond, and the Spiritweb is either drawn with it or is dissolved. (Consider how Kelsier experienced it as a lessening of self, and Yumi downright had trouble forming cohesive or cognizant thought). 

And so - I believe that one's OG consciousness is either drawn to the Beyond (or dissolved into it, as you pointed out as a possibility). A cognitive shadow's consciousness and self-awareness is formed by concentrated investiture conforming to the mold.

Now, does the soul remain with the Cognitive shadow as Sanderson insisted some in-universe theorize? The response to that would be "what is the soul exactly". Based on what I've heard, he's intentionally vague about that.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

3 hours ago, Oraiyu said:

In the beginning of Secret History, as Kelsier is being drawn into the Beyond, Preservation shoves him into the Well (His perpendicularity) and prevents Kel from being drawn further. He is even restored from whatever the Beyond was doing to him until then.

I assert that this is when he became a Cognitive shadow, as before then he was just a regular dead person in transition.

Now, it’s pretty clear from the way many perceive a Cognitive shadow that a it is not the person themselves. It’s instead a sort of imprint in the Cognitive of what made up the person + lots of Investiture.

 

 

Upon thinking about it - I’ve come to the following theory: A CS is an imprint of all that made up the person until then - including their memory, etc, built until the time of transition. From the Cognitive shadow’s POV - the whole experience would probably be seamless. I assert that OG Kel (whatever that is) actually was drawn fully to the beyond. What we’re following in the book is an almost seamless experience from the POV of the Cognitive shadow. Preservation wasn’t Preserving actual Kelsier, because he could not really counter the pull of the Beyond. But he did Preserve Kelsier in the next best way - by helping him imprint a Cognitive shadow.

So there’s a version of Kelsier in the Beyond (whatever that means) and a version of Kelsier who continues the story in secret History.

This concept was sparked in part by the game SOMA [Spoilers]

  Reveal hidden contents

In SOMA, your personality is copied and injected into a robot body. The game eventually reveals the the real you just went on living their life after the process, while you experienced a life, then a time jump when you went through the process, then suddenly woke up in a robot body. At the end of the game - the story literally follows the seamless experience of both the saved personality of the protagonist and the personality left behind to wander alone. It explores what each felt and why.

I’m interested to hear what y’all think about this idea.

3 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I feel like there is a lot of epistemology and ontology that is weird about this notion. It feels Zahel has some kind of attachment to a Tolkien esque "Men's mortality is a blessing of a higher God that cannot be undone" but why he feels that way isn't being shown. 

There is a huge gap in the metaphysics of this situation that needs to be resolved: What is a soul? Often, the soul is simply the thing which is aware of the thoughts a person experiences as their own, when I think "an apple" the thing witnessing the thought of "an apple" could be called my soul, but then how is this different from the mind? In fact, the entire notion of an ontology where the mind is not the soul has always felt faulty to me, and I thus feel the soul is a false category; it is a thing like a four sided triangle or the corners of a circle. We can name them, but they can't exist.

Suppose it is the reverse. Suppose the thing which is in the Beyond is the copy of the form of a collection of thoughts and potentials that whatever exists there copies to itself before the original can disperse as the material of the body will disperse after death. Then Kelsier as he exists in the Cosmere is the original version of himself which never had the repeating pattern that defines Kelsier-ness stop enough that the Beyond's process of making a copy would take it's own version of him. The sensation of "going into the Beyond" may simply be something injected into the mind as it is copied for the sake of making the copies feel more continuous and thus less prone to existential crisis.

2 hours ago, Oraiyu said:

I am wide open to the possibilities and ideas you present.

I've thought about the nature of the soul in the Cosmere quite a bit - to no clear, defined conclusion or understanding. More and more I'm considering just not using "soul" at all, rather using more specific terms like Spiritweb and mind / Cognitive aspect.

Brandon, in the WoB I mentioned - does point out that this is a topic debated in-universe. 

I specifically did not mention a soul, partially for reasons along the lines of thought similar to what you've put forth.

 

The thing is, despite this, whenever being drawn to the beyond is clarified a little, it seems that the mind and/or Cognitive aspect is drawn to the Beyond, and the Spiritweb is either drawn with it or is dissolved. (Consider how Kelsier experienced it as a lessening of self, and Yumi downright had trouble forming cohesive or cognizant thought). 

And so - I believe that one's OG consciousness is either drawn to the Beyond (or dissolved into it, as you pointed out as a possibility). A cognitive shadow's consciousness and self-awareness is formed by concentrated investiture conforming to the mold.

Now, does the soul remain with the Cognitive shadow as Sanderson insisted some in-universe theorize? The response to that would be "what is the soul exactly". Based on what I've heard, he's intentionally vague about that.

I would actually argue that Zahel was wrong, because there is one flaw in the reasoning. Mistborns (Or highly invested people) stay in the 'transition' longer. I believe, that in the transition, you are a cognitive shadow. You just don't stay for long. However, if you get a constant pump of invetsiture (just enough) (or like, idk, the well of ascension), then you could stay as a cognitive shadow for far longer. Additionally, after, (secret history spoilers):

Spoiler

kelsier ascends and gives it back to Vin, it is shown that he 'wont be pushed into the beyond unless he wants too' implying that otherwise, he would eventually have been pushed into the beyond. It would just take far longer because of all the well of ascension invstiture.

All of this seems to imply that either the cognitive shadow is the 'soul' (however we are defining or using that word) or a copy of someone is getting disintegrated and sent to the beyond for no possible reason.

[Oraiyu]

16 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Mistborns (Or highly invested people) stay in the 'transition' longer. I believe, that in the transition, you are a cognitive shadow. You just don't stay for long. However, if you get a constant pump of invetsiture (just enough) (or like, idk, the well of ascension), then you could stay as a cognitive shadow for far longer. Additionally, after, (secret history spoilers):

Spoiler

kelsier ascends and gives it back to Vin, it is shown that he 'wont be pushed into the beyond unless he wants too' implying that otherwise, he would eventually have been pushed into the beyond. It would just take far longer because of all the well of ascension invstiture.

I respectfully disagree.

Nothing about your logic asserts that you are a Cognitive shadow during transition. If you are a cognitive shadow, then what is transitioning into the beyond?  I don't think it says anywhere that there is some sort of split, or at least some sign that one happened, where the person becomes the Cognitive shadow before they transition.  

We see throughout that no one, not even Shards, can stop the pull of the Beyond. Oh, it can be delayed, but there's no indication it can be stopped.

Consider, though, in Secret History, where Kel was unconscious while Fuzz Preserved him. While not proof, there's still room to say there was a split, and Fuzz is preserving Kel by forcing the formation of his Cognitive shadow. 

IIRC Preservation himself tells Kel that The Lord Ruler would just stick around longer as opposed to completely resisting the pull, and he was a highly Invested splinter. (I'll try to find the quote when I come home)

Lastly, if one is a Cognitive shadow when while they transition, when did that change happen? How did it happen?

I am of the opinion that the OG person transitions, while Cognitive shadows do not.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

15 minutes ago, Oraiyu said:

I respectfully disagree.

Nothing about your logic asserts that you are a Cognitive shadow during transition. If you are a cognitive shadow, then what is transitioning into the beyond?  I don't think it says anywhere that there is some sort of split, or at least some sign that one happened, where the person becomes the Cognitive shadow before they transition.  

We see throughout that no one, not even Shards, can stop the pull of the Beyond. Oh, it can be delayed, but there's no indication it can be stopped.

Consider, though, in Secret History, where Kel was unconscious while Fuzz Preserved him. While not proof, there's still room to say there was a split, and Fuzz is preserving Kel by forcing the formation of his Cognitive shadow. 

IIRC Preservation himself tells Kel that The Lord Ruler would just stick around longer as opposed to completely resisting the pull, and he was a highly Invested splinter. (I'll try to find the quote when I come home)

Lastly, if one is a Cognitive shadow when while they transition, when did that change happen? How did it happen?

I am of the opinion that the OG person transitions, while Cognitive shadows do not.

That is good logic. I support that. That makes complete sense. I would however, argue that you have no proof that nothing can resist the pull. It only says that Kelsier is immune to the pull after he becomes a sliver (for a longer time than the Lord Ruler, too). If you can provide the evidence, I see no other flaws in your reasoning. You are good at theorizing.

I will say, I do believe that Cognitive shadows are the real deal (mostly because I love kelsier and don't want him to permanently die (I spent the entire end of TFE in denial that kelsier died))

Edited April 30, 2025 by CoderDrag0n8

[Oraiyu]

11 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

That is good logic. I support that. That makes complete sense. I would however, argue that you have no proof that nothing can resist the pull. It only says that Kelsier is immune to the pull after he becomes a sliver (for a longer time than the Lord Ruler, too). If you can provide the evidence, I see no other flaws in your reasoning. You are good at theorizing.

I will say, I do believe that Cognitive shadows are the real deal (mostly because I love kelsier and don't want him to permanently die (I spent the entire end of TFE in denial that kelsier died))

Thanks!

I admit I do not have proof that the pull of the Beyond can not be stopped.

I do, however, believe that in every instance the pull of the beyond was not stopped - even when someone didn't want it to - even when a Shard tried to stop it. 

 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 minute ago, Oraiyu said:

Thanks!

I admit I do not have proof that the pull of the Beyond can not be stopped.

I do, however, believe that in every instance the pull of the beyond was not stopped - even when someone didn't want it to - even when a Shard tried to stop it. 

 

I still stand by my evience of (Not quoted perfectly, Im not at home):

Quote

However, the beyond couldnt pull him anymore. Not unless he wanted it too. He had held a shards power, and will no longer feel the pull.

That, Ruin (Ati, actually) going to the beyond WAY to quickly for a holder of a SHARD (sliver), how large amounts of innate investiture keep you from the beyond for longer, and how every instance of evading the beyond (resulting in a cognitive shadow) uses some sort of investiture (The well, being a Sliver, Innate investiture, and Breaths (Im assuming that's what Zahel uses)(But we don't have much to go on)). All of this evidence convinces me towards my side, but just a single piece of evidence saying that you can't resist the Beyond (even with a shard's help) would render all of this speculative evidence useless.

[Oraiyu]

5 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Quote

However, the beyond couldnt pull him anymore. Not unless he wanted it too. He had held a shards power, and will no longer feel the pull.

This was towards the end, after Kel was already was a Cognitive shadow (IMHO). 

The only line that gives me pause is "Unless he wanted it to". That sounds like Brandon is expositing through Kel.

The thing is, I feel the same way about Vasher's convo with Kaladin.

So either Kel is right or Vasher is. I'm gonna side with the consistently highly Invested worldhopper with centuries of experience and Cosmere-awareness. 

[Oraiyu]

I just want to say that regardless of what gets pulled, I still theorize and strongly believe that when a Cognitive shadow gets created, it does not have the OG consciousness, but a copy generated by the concentrated investiture. It does have the "shape" of the OG consciousness, and it will therefore experience continuity from it's point of view.

I do not really have a strong opinion as to what happens to the OG consciousness when it's drawn to the Beyond. There's really no indication either way that I saw...

Edited April 30, 2025 by Oraiyu
emphasis

[Ninth of the Night]

Please try to avoid double posting, it's against forum policy.

As for Cognitive Shadows, there is no definitive answer and likely never will be. Much like with the Beyond, Brandon intends to leave it up to personal interpretation. If you want to believe they're a copy of the original, it's your right to do so. Many others, myself included, believe it's the original soul (or Spirit Web) that continues to persist.

Note that in the WoB included in your opening post Brandon says it's an in-universe theory. It isn't concrete evidence one way or the other. He simply states that some characters (like Vasher) take the Investiture copy stance while many others disagree with that assumption.

It's also possible that both answers are true and it just depends on the process used to create the Cognitive Shadow.

[Duxredux he/him]

Soul is an in-world Cosmere term, albeit an indistinct one, so I don't think we should fault anyone for using it. I don't think the usage is consistent within what we have seen among the various worlds. When talking about Scadrian death and transition, it's worth looking at when Wax dies at the end of BoM. Harmony directly states that death separates a person into three components. " 

Quote

"I'm dead then."
"Yes," Harmony said. "Your body, mind, and soul have separated. Soon one will return to the earth, another to the cosmere, and the third ... Even I do not know."

Kelsier describes it this way:

Quote

"... he felt an awful tearing sensation - as if he were a cloth caught between the jaws of two vicious hounds.

He screamed, desperately trying to hold himself together. His will meant nothing. He was rent, ripped, and hurled into a place of endless shifting mists."

This would fit in to the platonic Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Realms that the Cosmere is founded on. This separation seems to happen almost immediately upon death, perhaps is a definition of death, but for a time it can be reversed with sufficiently and appropriately applied Investiture. Szeth for example is not a Cognitive Shadow. When I first heard that quote from Harmony, my assumption was that the body was of course the one that returned to the earth, the mind to the Cosmere, and the soul(spiritweb) to The Beyond to follow the pattern. After thinking about it though, I suspect that I was wrong. I suspect it's the Spiritweb that returns to the Cosmere and the mind that goes to the Beyond. Space and time are one in the Spiritual Realm, which is composed of Spiritwebs and the Connections between them. 

This is further backed up below. I do think there's evidence that at least some Cognitive Shadows are enhanced souls that may not simply be Investiture molded to think like the original - at least by in-world understanding. Take Kelek's writing on the final death of Jezrien.

Quote

91	"And so, I’ll die. Yes, die. If you’re reading this and wondering what went wrong—why my soul evaporated soon after being claimed by the gemstone in your knife—then I name you idiot for playing with powers you only presume to understand."
92	"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."
93	"I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed. He faded over the weeks, and is gone now. Beyond your touch at long last. I should welcome the same. I do not. I fear you."

 

Back to the original post, yes, when Preservation shoved Kelsier into the Well of Ascension and presumably Commanded him "Be Preserved, Kelsier. Survivor.", that is when he was suffused with power and became able to persist apparently indefinitely without having to actively seek out Investiture to consume. The rest of the speculation on whether or not Kelsier's mind simply was enhanced or if a copy was made, that touches too closely on The Beyond which as other have noted will remain unknown. The Beyond will remain unknowable because making it defined would destroy his efforts to let various religions exist without intrinsically undermining the practitioners beliefs.

 Brandon has talked about the question of the continuity of self of Cognitive Shadows and alluded to similar philosophical debates from other fandoms. For example, if you step into a teleporter, what's to say that it's really the same person that comes out on the other side, particularly if they are broken down and transmitted as data? WoB below. 

Spoiler

Gordon Kelsch

Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from Beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this.

Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake.' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system.

Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Edited May 3, 2025 by Duxredux
clarity

[Oraiyu]

On 5/1/2025 at 6:43 AM, Ninth of the Night said:

Please try to avoid double posting, it's against forum policy.

Apologies. I wasn't aware that I did, but I'll be more careful moving forward. 

On 5/1/2025 at 6:43 AM, Ninth of the Night said:

Note that in the WoB included in your opening post Brandon says it's an in-universe theory. It isn't concrete evidence one way or the other. He simply states that some characters (like Vasher) take the Investiture copy stance while many others disagree with that assumption.

I asserted that I recognized this to be the case in my original post. 

This whole thread got away from me. My fault, probably. 

All I was positing was that whether something persists in the Cognitive or gets drawn to the beyond (or both) - it will experience a continuity as if it were the OG by virtue of its experience and/or memories - even if that soon after gets cut short for whatever reason. I was not trying to assert any side of the soul/self debate as definitive, and am fully aware that this has deliberately been left vague by Brandon.

19 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Soul is an in-world Cosmere term, albeit an indistinct one, so I don't think we should fault anyone for using it.

Not faulting anyone. 

19 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I suspect it's the Spiritweb that returns to the Cosmere and the mind that goes to the Beyond. Space and time are one in the Spiritual Realm, which is composed of Spiritwebs and the Connections between them. 

I lean towards this interpretation as well

19 hours ago, Duxredux said:

The rest of the speculation on whether or not Kelsier's mind simply was enhanced or if a copy was made, that touches too closely on The Beyond which as other have noted will remain unknown

I should not have let this thread get away from my original postulation. What I wanted to present was the continuity of existence experienced by whatever is around after death, and the idea that if there are 2 such entities - such as in the theoretical case of a conscious being in the Beyond and a Cognitive shadow, they would both experience a continuity as of they were the OG. 

I am NOT saying that this is what happens, Im just using that theory to explain my point. 

And yes, I know a Cognitive shadow can realise it's not the OG (like Vasher does). I am only talking about the continuity experienced. 

Edited May 4, 2025 by Oraiyu
Correction

[nehalem]

I am going to go with Zahel is wrong.

It would suck if CS-Kelsier was just a copy the real Kelsier.

Who would want to read stories about a copy of a character?

Edited May 7, 2025 by nehalem

[Oraiyu]

34 minutes ago, nehalem said:

Who would want to read stories about a copy of a character?

Anyone who enjoyed reading Yumi... 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

2 hours ago, Oraiyu said:

Anyone who enjoyed reading Yumi... 

Yeah that.

[nehalem]

On 5/7/2025 at 12:45 PM, Oraiyu said:

Anyone who enjoyed reading Yumi... 

I think the difference is that we never knew original Yumi.

[Oraiyu]

1 hour ago, nehalem said:

I think the difference is that we never knew original Yumi.

True...

But this kind of circles back to my original theory.
The Cognitive shadow wouldn't really feel like it is a new, different entity. And don't forget - a CS is created by Investiture filling the "mold" left behind by a highly Invested person leaving the Cognitive - including their personality. As such, it is essentially, basically the same person - both to us and to them.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 4/30/2025 at 2:35 PM, Oraiyu said:

Nothing about your logic asserts that you are a Cognitive shadow during transition.

The Stormfather implies it when speaking with Eshonai post-death (RoW 117):

Spoiler

She floated. So … this is my soul?

SOME WOULD CALL IT THAT, said the Rider of Storms. SOME WOULD SAY IT IS A SPREN FORMED BY THE POWER YOU LEFT, IMPRINTED WITH YOUR MEMORIES. EITHER WAY, THIS IS THE END. YOU WILL PASS INTO ETERNITY SOON, AND EVEN I CANNOT SEE WHAT IS BEYOND.

This is of course the exact question that Brandon poses about Shadows, so this seems to confirm that despite Eshonai retaining continuity of consciousness the entire time she did indeed become one immediately upon death.

On 4/30/2025 at 2:35 PM, Oraiyu said:

If you are a cognitive shadow, then what is transitioning into the beyond?

This question assumes the Beyond exists, which we don't know. But also worth noting that Kelsier feels the stretching again after Ruin's attack (SH 6-8):

Spoiler

He ended up someplace surrounded by mist, blind to anything beyond its shifting. Death, for real this time? No . . . but he was very close. He could feel the stretching coming upon him again, coaxing him, trying to pull him toward that distant point where everyone else had gone.

He wanted to go. He hurt so much. He wanted it all to end, to go away. Everything. He just wanted it to stop.

He had felt this despair before, in the Pits of Hathsin. He didn't have Preservation’s voice to guide him now, as he had then, but—weeping, trembling—he sank his hands into the misty expanse around him and held on. Clinging to it, refusing to go. Denying that force that called to him, promising peace and an ending.

Eventually it stilled, and the stretching sensation faded away. He had held the power of deity. The final death could not take him unless he wanted it to.

By then he is unambiguously a Shadow, so if the Beyond does exist then this is an open question anyway. The hypothesis that pre-Well Kelsier was a non-Shadow who passed on actually makes it more complex because then we have to contend with both versions going Beyond separately.

(This obviously doesn't disprove the theory, but imo it does interfere with the simplicity argument regarding when one becomes a Shadow.)

On 4/30/2025 at 2:35 PM, Oraiyu said:

I don't think it says anywhere that there is some sort of split, or at least some sign that one happened, where the person becomes the Cognitive shadow before they transition.  

Again, this is assuming a specific interpretation. If there is no split, there is no problem.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 4/29/2025 at 9:56 PM, CoderDrag0n8 said:

I believe, that in the transition, you are a cognitive shadow.

I agree with this. It seems clearly spelled out that the cognitive remnant of a person who just experience physical death is a cognitive shadow. Depending on the amount of investiture you held at the time of your death and to what degree your spiritweb/soul had expanded during your existence, you will persist as a cognitive shadow for varying degrees of time. 

The debate that I find important here is where does the OG person end, and the copy begin? If we are convinced there is an afterlife in the Cosmere, then we must assume that the 'soul' of the person enters that afterlife at one of a few points: physical death, when CS stretches to the beyond, or (as OP asserted originally) when/if a cognitive shadow is expanded or altered to be able to persist indefinitely. 

On 6/7/2025 at 5:53 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

By then he is unambiguously a Shadow, so if the Beyond does exist then this is an open question anyway. The hypothesis that pre-Well Kelsier was a non-Shadow who passed on actually makes it more complex because then we have to contend with both versions going Beyond separately.

Great point here - if we assume there is an afterlife, things get really complicated really quickly. As I stated above there's the question of when a 'soul' continues on to said afterlife. Beyond that, you raise another complication - is there a separate afterlife for the cognitive shadow and the original person? IF we decide that a person's soul goes off to the 'beyond' right after physical death or when OP asserted after the shadow is altered to stay indefinitely, then we are assuming this new cognitive shadow is either a fake copy that is missing something to make them 'human' or they are a real copy who has a different identity.

I think the most logically consistent argument for an afterlife in the Cosmere is a complete lack of one. I find no reason to view a cognitive shadow differently from the original person. I think they are the same entity, with the same memories and continuity of consciousness. I think when physical death happens, their cognitive aspect continues to exist as long as the investiture they are holding permits them to. At that point they are constructed purely of investiture with a complex weave of Identity and Connection (essentially existing as a spiritweb). When they stretch to the Beyond, that is (imo) simply the process of that investiture losing its hold on the form/identity that it was trying to maintain, and then recycling back into the spiritual realm.

Like what Pattern tells Shallan about what it was like before he was 'born'. He talks about existing as everything at once. It sounds a lot to me like existing as part of the Spiritual Realm itself - all times and all places existing together in one space of pure investiture. Spren are born out of that through certain processes we haven't been made privy to. The Blackthorn spren was born out of that. To me it makes a lot of sense for the investiture characters hold/held to simply cycle back to that original point and then eventually be spit back out through one or multiple perpendicularities depending on the polarity/tuning of said investiture.

On 5/7/2025 at 12:09 PM, nehalem said:

I am going to go with Zahel is wrong.

It would suck if CS-Kelsier was just a copy the real Kelsier.

Who would want to read stories about a copy of a character?

Zahel is an interesting case - he is predisposed to view himself as a new and different entity, a copy of the original... because he kind of is. He doesn't have the continuity of conciousness or the memories of the original person he was as a mortal. He was Returned with a blank slate. I would argue that this gives him the same original Identity and Connections that the mortal Zahel had, along with the same dispositions and general habits. Much like we see with Lightsong. But it also leaves him wide open to pave a new road and become a new person. Look at what happened when Dalinar had his memories and trauma removed - he changed into a completely different person.

My personal argument is that these differences don't actually matter that much because at the end of the characters are whoever they think they are. There isn't a 'soul' aspect beyond the spiritweb, which is more of a defining list of Identity and Connections than it is some sort of innate/eternal entity that persists as they are indefinitely. The leftover investiture from OG Zahel's physical death was Returned without his memories, and that is why he views cognitive shadows as poor copies of the originals. That and his own self loathing.

Kaladin on the other hand, would argue that Zahel is totally wrong because he has his memories and the continuity of conciousness. I don't think it matters that Kaladin is a 'copy' of his physical self. It's more like uploading someone's intelligence into a computer - the sci-fi trope that is closer and closer on our horizon. If someone has to die in the process of uploading themselves to the internet, is the copy still them? From their perspective they certainly are. But if there is a soul that people have, then I would assume that soul went on to whatever afterlife or reincarnation or whatever, and the uploaded intelligence continues on existing as it were. But then when that computer coded entity eventually is deleted or something, does it go to an afterlife? I find it interesting to take these ideas and expand them into scenarios in our world as well. Just as we can't actually define a soul or show that it exists or definitively prove an afterlife, the characters in the Cosmere are clueless as to what happens after they die - even the shard vessels themselves can't see into the Beyond and don't actually know what happens there (if anything).

On 5/4/2025 at 4:12 AM, Oraiyu said:

And yes, I know a Cognitive shadow can realise it's not the OG (like Vasher does). I am only talking about the continuity experienced. 

I'd argue here that Vasher views himself that way, but if there is not actually an afterlife in the Cosmere then he is still the only remnant of the original Vasher. He is still the OG, just one that has been warped in the process of gaining immortality - a process that resulted in the removal of his memories and made him subject to the influence of collective conciousness. But until someone can prove that people have souls, what those souls are, and where they go (and when) upon physical/cognitive death.... I personally think that he's just all that remains of that original self. Not a poor copy, so much as a disrupted continuation.

[Oraiyu]

On 6/7/2025 at 6:53 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

By then he is unambiguously a Shadow, so if the Beyond does exist then this is an open question anyway. The hypothesis that pre-Well Kelsier was a non-Shadow who passed on actually makes it more complex because then we have to contend with both versions going Beyond separately.

(This obviously doesn't disprove the theory, but imo it does interfere with the simplicity argument regarding when one becomes a Shadow.)

As @CognitiveShadow said, good point about Kel being drawn to the Beyond more than once.

23 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Zahel is an interesting case - he is predisposed to view himself as a new and different entity, a copy of the original... because he kind of is. He doesn't have the continuity of conciousness or the memories of the original person he was as a mortal. He was Returned with a blank slate.

23 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Kaladin on the other hand, would argue that Zahel is totally wrong because he has his memories and the continuity of conciousness.

Great observation about the differences in perception between Zahel & Kaladin, and how it would shape their interpretation of an unclear, ambiguous reality. It also speaks to and elaborates on my original point about continuity of consciousness. 

25 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

It's more like uploading someone's intelligence into a computer - the sci-fi trope that is closer and closer on our horizon. If someone has to die in the process of uploading themselves to the internet, is the copy still them? From their perspective they certainly are. But if there is a soul that people have, then I would assume that soul went on to whatever afterlife or reincarnation or whatever, and the uploaded intelligence continues on existing as it were. But then when that computer coded entity eventually is deleted or something, does it go to an afterlife?

I'd referenced this idea by bringing up the game SOMA in my original post. Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks that thought experiment might be connected to this one.

Since my original post, I've been digesting the responses and thinking some more. 

I've come to realize that I was hanging on to some notions that were limiting. I believed that in the Cosmere, the Ego of a person necessarily continues to the Beyond. I also assumed that a CognitiveShadow is what's left when the person gets pulled to the Beyond. On top[ of that, I was also trying to apply as much logic and concrete ideas to an area Brandon purposely left ambiguous. 

I also realized that the definition of a Cognitive Shadow & what happens when one is pulled to the Beyond can be independent discussions. 

Once I let go of those hang ups (not to say that they don't actually apply), and accepted that we'll probably never know much of the way this all works, I was able to further develop my approach.

As @LewsTherinTelescope asserted, defining a Cognitive Shadow as a being leaving it's Physical self and maintaining it's Cognitive aspect regardless of whether the Investiture is the OG self or what Invested it does seem to be the simpler approach.

As an aside, It also does make sense to me that one's SpiritWeb passes through he Spiritual on it's way to the Beyond. (I wonder if there are Spiritual Shadows )

This approach is bolstered when we consider how everyone is made up of investiture - even their SpiritWeb. In terms of Cognitive Shadows, Who's to say the Investiture bound and shaped by Identity and Connection is different from ancillary Investiture (such as that bourn by a Radient or Elantrian.

All this being the case, I'm much more comfortable and at ease exploring various sides of the discussion regarding whether a Cognitive Shadow is the OG or a fossil, and at what point the transition, if any, was made. In addition, while it's not clear, I am leaning towards the possibility that a fossil-type Cognitive Shadow can experience a continuity of consciousness from the OG.

To finish off, I'd like to present a deeper aspect I've been toying with:

In terms of the Ego (the "person themselves") - Is that a construct of the SpiritWeb, or is it something distinct from it? Even with replaced Investiture allowing the Cognitive Shadow to exist, perhaps it's still the same person.

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Like what Pattern tells Shallan about what it was like before he was 'born'. He talks about existing as everything at once

That's a tantalizing tease about whether an Ego exists as an entity distinct from the SpiritWeb. It sounds like Pattern pretty much had no distinct SpiritWeb at that point, or he wouldn't be existing as everything. The SpiritWeb limits and makes distinct as much as it Connects, as it's made up of Nodes, a distinct Identity and a limited number of connections. Infinite connections can not be called a distinct SpiritWeb. So WHAT experienced existing as everything at once?

Yet another mystery and food for thought.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

5 minutes ago, Oraiyu said:

That's a tantalizing tease about whether an Ego exists as an entity distinct from the SpiritWeb. It sounds like Pattern pretty much had no distinct SpiritWeb at that point, or he wouldn't be existing as everything. The SpiritWeb limits and makes distinct as much as it Connects, as it's made up of Nodes, a distinct Identity and a limited number of connections. Infinite connections can not be called a distinct SpiritWeb. So WHAT experienced existing as everything at once?

I think for Pattern, he also refers to himself always existing as a pattern. My reading on this is that Pattern (the spren himself) is a self-aware represenation of a particular pattern (likely of very complex and specific numbers or something). I'd say that he 'existed' in a potential state - that is to say that he was not an individual and was connected to all things as part of the mass of investiture in the Spiritual Realm, and then when whatever process Spren use to create their offstpring happened (and potentially when his particular pattern was recognized or relevant to sentient beings in Roshar), his potential was realized and the investiture applicable to his sense of self, identity, connections, etc. formed a sentient spiritweb and began a more concrete existence.

We can look to the formation of the shards as another example - all of the investiture of Adonalsium was joined together under the same general umbrella, even though some of it had polarizations and intents that varied across the board. When the Shattering happened, Adonalsium was split into 16. But Brandon has said that this split could have happened a number of different ways - different qty's of shards, different variations of intents, etc. Even though it's all the same investiture. They happened to split off the way they did, probably due to perceptions and expectations of those present during the event and the use of the dawnshards.

So in a way Honor always existed under the umbrella of Adonalsium, but if the split had happened differently it could have been the case that Retribution was the original split off, which included the investiture that has the potential to split into Odium and Honor or any other number of different intents that all come together to create the whole. Kind of ties in with the Iriali religion and The One.

And that's where I think it gets interesting - what if there is no afterlife, but the consciousness and existence experienced by all sentient entities in the Cosmere is just constantly recycled in and out of the spiritual realm? It comes out in perpendicularities or it shows up in and is used by people who are born and live and die. So when they die, all of their Identity and Connection wirings simply find their way back into the larger whole of the Spiritual Realm? The Iriali could be onto something here - maybe in a way the people in the Cosmere really are just coming from the same source and returning to the same source. They are the way that The One gains new experiences, and those experiences are all recorded in the Spiritual Realm.

We saw a lot of stuff in WaT that I think backs this ideology up quite a bit. And if there is no afterlife, then there is no need for 'souls' really - it's more of a question about whether the investiture is pulled together in the right way to construct the conciousness of that particular character. If it is, then it's them. If it's altered, then it would be slightly different. Kind of like the Dalinar and Blackthorn variation - the new Blackthorn is clearly a different person from OG Dalinar, even though they share a lot of the same history. The Blackthorn is more aligned with the previous version of the man that Dalinar used to be, but is no longer. 

At the end of the day, we are all constantly changing people and so are the characters in the books. Who's to say that Kaladin from Book 1 is still the same person as Kaladin in book 3? He and Dalinar certainly refer to themselves as variations of different people they have been in their pasts. If they can view their previous self as a different person from who they are now without even dying, then I figure we can look at their cognitive shadows as extensions of the same ever-changing and evolving conciousness born out of neurons and investiture.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 hour ago, Oraiyu said:

As @CognitiveShadow said, good point about Kel being drawn to the Beyond more than once.

Great observation about the differences in perception between Zahel & Kaladin, and how it would shape their interpretation of an unclear, ambiguous reality. It also speaks to and elaborates on my original point about continuity of consciousness. 

I'd referenced this idea by bringing up the game SOMA in my original post. Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks that thought experiment might be connected to this one.

Since my original post, I've been digesting the responses and thinking some more. 

I've come to realize that I was hanging on to some notions that were limiting. I believed that in the Cosmere, the Ego of a person necessarily continues to the Beyond. I also assumed that a CognitiveShadow is what's left when the person gets pulled to the Beyond. On top[ of that, I was also trying to apply as much logic and concrete ideas to an area Brandon purposely left ambiguous. 

I also realized that the definition of a Cognitive Shadow & what happens when one is pulled to the Beyond can be independent discussions. 

Once I let go of those hang ups (not to say that they don't actually apply), and accepted that we'll probably never know much of the way this all works, I was able to further develop my approach.

As @LewsTherinTelescope asserted, defining a Cognitive Shadow as a being leaving it's Physical self and maintaining it's Cognitive aspect regardless of whether the Investiture is the OG self or what Invested it does seem to be the simpler approach.

As an aside, It also does make sense to me that one's SpiritWeb passes through he Spiritual on it's way to the Beyond. (I wonder if there are Spiritual Shadows )

This approach is bolstered when we consider how everyone is made up of investiture - even their SpiritWeb. In terms of Cognitive Shadows, Who's to say the Investiture bound and shaped by Identity and Connection is different from ancillary Investiture (such as that bourn by a Radient or Elantrian.

All this being the case, I'm much more comfortable and at ease exploring various sides of the discussion regarding whether a Cognitive Shadow is the OG or a fossil, and at what point the transition, if any, was made. In addition, while it's not clear, I am leaning towards the possibility that a fossil-type Cognitive Shadow can experience a continuity of consciousness from the OG.

To finish off, I'd like to present a deeper aspect I've been toying with:

In terms of the Ego (the "person themselves") - Is that a construct of the SpiritWeb, or is it something distinct from it? Even with replaced Investiture allowing the Cognitive Shadow to exist, perhaps it's still the same person.

That's a tantalizing tease about whether an Ego exists as an entity distinct from the SpiritWeb. It sounds like Pattern pretty much had no distinct SpiritWeb at that point, or he wouldn't be existing as everything. The SpiritWeb limits and makes distinct as much as it Connects, as it's made up of Nodes, a distinct Identity and a limited number of connections. Infinite connections can not be called a distinct SpiritWeb. So WHAT experienced existing as everything at once?

Yet another mystery and food for thought.

On the spiritual shadows note, I feel that if they do exist, they would probably be not that interesting. They would have no thought, they would just be a ball of investiture. Maybe spiritual shadows pulled into the cognitive realm by collective thought is what spren are. 

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I think for Pattern, he also refers to himself always existing as a pattern. My reading on this is that Pattern (the spren himself) is a self-aware represenation of a particular pattern (likely of very complex and specific numbers or something). I'd say that he 'existed' in a potential state - that is to say that he was not an individual and was connected to all things as part of the mass of investiture in the Spiritual Realm, and then when whatever process Spren use to create their offstpring happened (and potentially when his particular pattern was recognized or relevant to sentient beings in Roshar), his potential was realized and the investiture applicable to his sense of self, identity, connections, etc. formed a sentient spiritweb and began a more concrete existence.

We can look to the formation of the shards as another example - all of the investiture of Adonalsium was joined together under the same general umbrella, even though some of it had polarizations and intents that varied across the board. When the Shattering happened, Adonalsium was split into 16. But Brandon has said that this split could have happened a number of different ways - different qty's of shards, different variations of intents, etc. Even though it's all the same investiture. They happened to split off the way they did, probably due to perceptions and expectations of those present during the event and the use of the dawnshards.

So in a way Honor always existed under the umbrella of Adonalsium, but if the split had happened differently it could have been the case that Retribution was the original split off, which included the investiture that has the potential to split into Odium and Honor or any other number of different intents that all come together to create the whole. Kind of ties in with the Iriali religion and The One.

And that's where I think it gets interesting - what if there is no afterlife, but the consciousness and existence experienced by all sentient entities in the Cosmere is just constantly recycled in and out of the spiritual realm? It comes out in perpendicularities or it shows up in and is used by people who are born and live and die. So when they die, all of their Identity and Connection wirings simply find their way back into the larger whole of the Spiritual Realm? The Iriali could be onto something here - maybe in a way the people in the Cosmere really are just coming from the same source and returning to the same source. They are the way that The One gains new experiences, and those experiences are all recorded in the Spiritual Realm.

We saw a lot of stuff in WaT that I think backs this ideology up quite a bit. And if there is no afterlife, then there is no need for 'souls' really - it's more of a question about whether the investiture is pulled together in the right way to construct the conciousness of that particular character. If it is, then it's them. If it's altered, then it would be slightly different. Kind of like the Dalinar and Blackthorn variation - the new Blackthorn is clearly a different person from OG Dalinar, even though they share a lot of the same history. The Blackthorn is more aligned with the previous version of the man that Dalinar used to be, but is no longer. 

At the end of the day, we are all constantly changing people and so are the characters in the books. Who's to say that Kaladin from Book 1 is still the same person as Kaladin in book 3? He and Dalinar certainly refer to themselves as variations of different people they have been in their pasts. If they can view their previous self as a different person from who they are now without even dying, then I figure we can look at their cognitive shadows as extensions of the same ever-changing and evolving conciousness born out of neurons and investiture.

I like this interpertation

Edited June 9, 2025 by CoderDrag0n8

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Oraiyu said:

As an aside, It also does make sense to me that one's SpiritWeb passes through he Spiritual on it's way to the Beyond. (I wonder if there are Spiritual Shadows )

I suspect this could be what we're seeing in the visions, or at least the more "alive" Tien and Nohadon ones. (I go back and forth on how exactly I think of all that as working.)

[Oraiyu]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I'd say that he 'existed' in a potential state - that is to say that he was not an individual and was connected to all things as part of the mass of investiture in the Spiritual Realm, and then when whatever process Spren use to create their offstpring happened (and potentially when his particular pattern was recognized or relevant to sentient beings in Roshar), his potential was realized and the investiture applicable to his sense of self, identity, connections, etc. formed a sentient spiritweb and began a more concrete existence.

1 hour ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

On the spiritual shadows note, I feel that if they do exist, they would probably be not that interesting. They would have no thought, they would just be a ball of investiture. Maybe spiritual shadows pulled into the cognitive realm by collective thought is what spren are. 

I originally found it hard to think Pattern would have any sort of awareness in that state. Awareness seems to be a Cognitive attribute.

Then I remembered Homunculus Wit and his Infinite Recursion  (One of my favorite characters, BTW)

I'll need to consider the nature of awareness is in the Cosmere and why it can be separate from the Cognitive. I've a few quarter-baked fledgling ideas, but I'd need to develop them more before sharing.

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

We can look to the formation of the shards as another example - all of the investiture of Adonalsium was joined together under the same general umbrella, even though some of it had polarizations and intents that varied across the board. When the Shattering happened, Adonalsium was split into 16. But Brandon has said that this split could have happened a number of different ways - different qty's of shards, different variations of intents, etc. Even though it's all the same investiture. They happened to split off the way they did, probably due to perceptions and expectations of those present during the event and the use of the dawnshards.

So in a way Honor always existed under the umbrella of Adonalsium, but if the split had happened differently it could have been the case that Retribution was the original split off, which included the investiture that has the potential to split into Odium and Honor or any other number of different intents that all come together to create the whole. 

Here are my views on Adonalsium before the Shattering as it relates to individual Shards:

 

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

And that's where I think it gets interesting - what if there is no afterlife, but the consciousness and existence experienced by all sentient entities in the Cosmere is just constantly recycled in and out of the spiritual realm? It comes out in perpendicularities or it shows up in and is used by people who are born and live and die. So when they die, all of their Identity and Connection wirings simply find their way back into the larger whole of the Spiritual Realm? The Iriali could be onto something here - maybe in a way the people in the Cosmere really are just coming from the same source and returning to the same source. They are the way that The One gains new experiences, and those experiences are all recorded in the Spiritual Realm.

We saw a lot of stuff in WaT that I think backs this ideology up quite a bit. And if there is no afterlife, then there is no need for 'souls' really - it's more of a question about whether the investiture is pulled together in the right way to construct the conciousness of that particular character. If it is, then it's them. If it's altered, then it would be slightly different. Kind of like the Dalinar and Blackthorn variation - the new Blackthorn is clearly a different person from OG Dalinar, even though they share a lot of the same history. The Blackthorn is more aligned with the previous version of the man that Dalinar used to be, but is no longer. 

At the end of the day, we are all constantly changing people and so are the characters in the books. Who's to say that Kaladin from Book 1 is still the same person as Kaladin in book 3? He and Dalinar certainly refer to themselves as variations of different people they have been in their pasts. If they can view their previous self as a different person from who they are now without even dying, then I figure we can look at their cognitive shadows as extensions of the same ever-changing and evolving conciousness born out of neurons and investiture.

VERY good point. What if "The Beyond" is nothing more than the SpiritWeb returning to the Spiritual, and perhaps becoming unified with the Cosmerical SpiritWeb to some degree? I like it Another point I'll need to ponder...

36 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I suspect this could be what we're seeing in the visions, or at least the more "alive" Tien and Nohadon ones. (I go back and forth on how exactly I think of all that as working.)

Very interesting!

Edited June 9, 2025 by Oraiyu
Link instead of quote