A Fourth... Everything?

[Jult]

Maybe not the best Topic title, but I was trying to dance around putting spoilers in the title.

What I really want to talk about is primeval spren: Wind, Stone, and Night. I have this idea that they are not a trio and are actually a quartet with a missing member.

I've had this idea in my head for a while, and I keep coming up with more reasons to support it. So, at this point, I want to see if other people are thinking the same way or if I'm just diving into confirmation bias. 

I really started thinking about this when I learned that Roshar and the spren existed before Honor and Cultivation showed up. Adonalsium  tends to be associated with the numbers 4 or 16. So, why create 3 primeval spren? And why 3 moons? But I shrugged it off because 3's show up all over Roshar and most people assume 3 is Cultivation's number.

Then that storming 4th moon showed up.. Okay. So, Adonalsium did create 4 moons. And still only 3 primeval spren? I've heard a lot of people saying that the 4th moon implies a 4th Shard is on Roshar. But the moons pre-date the Shattering, so that never made sense to me. I think it instead implies the existence of a 4th primeval spren.

There are some interesting ideas that would follow from this like:

1. We know Bondsmith's historically bonded to Wind, Stone, and Night before the Stormfather, Sibling, and Nightwatcher took their places. If there was a 4th primeval spren, could there be a 4th Bondsmith?
2. Wind and Stone have a sort of yin-yang situation going on. Would the 4th primeval spren be Night's opposite? Day?
   • If yes, would Day's relation to flamespren be similar to Wind's relationship to windspren?
3. Were Honor, Cultivation, and Odium aware of the 4th primeval spren? Did they create some 4th sibling that the others forgot about (their memories have been less than stellar)
4. What color would this 4th spren be associated with? Orange? That color played an interesting role recently.

I've got other thoughts but I'm also starting to ramble.. So, what do y'all think?

[Treamayne]

Interesting theory.

22 minutes ago, Jult said:

Then that storming 4th moon showed up.. Okay. So, Adonalsium did create 4 moons.

I do not think the reveal means that Roshar originally had four moons. Possible, of course, but also possible there was 1 moon that, when Adonalsium was shattered, was also destroyed. Then as Honor and Cultivation arrived, so too did the moons associated with them (and their colour) - ditto Odium and the third moon (for that matter, the formation of the moon could have been part of the Rosharan system accepting and adjusting to their Power becoming "part of Roshar"). 

I doubt there is or was another Shard hiding in the Rosharan system and as far as we know the only tenuous link between Adonalsium and the number 4 is that there are Four Dawnshards - and we don't even know for sure if they started as separated or not.

Edited April 28, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

26 minutes ago, Jult said:

Maybe not the best Topic title, but I was trying to dance around putting spoilers in the title.

What I really want to talk about is primeval spren: Wind, Stone, and Night. I have this idea that they are not a trio and are actually a quartet with a missing member.

I've had this idea in my head for a while, and I keep coming up with more reasons to support it. So, at this point, I want to see if other people are thinking the same way or if I'm just diving into confirmation bias. 

I really started thinking about this when I learned that Roshar and the spren existed before Honor and Cultivation showed up. Adonalsium  tends to be associated with the numbers 4 or 16. So, why create 3 primeval spren? And why 3 moons? But I shrugged it off because 3's show up all over Roshar and most people assume 3 is Cultivation's number.

Then that storming 4th moon showed up.. Okay. So, Adonalsium did create 4 moons. And still only 3 primeval spren? I've heard a lot of people saying that the 4th moon implies a 4th Shard is on Roshar. But the moons pre-date the Shattering, so that never made sense to me. I think it instead implies the existence of a 4th primeval spren.

There are some interesting ideas that would follow from this like:

1. We know Bondsmith's historically bonded to Wind, Stone, and Night before the Stormfather, Sibling, and Nightwatcher took their places. If there was a 4th primeval spren, could there be a 4th Bondsmith?
2. Wind and Stone have a sort of yin-yang situation going on. Would the 4th primeval spren be Night's opposite? Day?
   • If yes, would Day's relation to flamespren be similar to Wind's relationship to windspren?
3. Were Honor, Cultivation, and Odium aware of the 4th primeval spren? Did they create some 4th sibling that the others forgot about (their memories have been less than stellar)
4. What color would this 4th spren be associated with? Orange? That color played an interesting role recently.

I've got other thoughts but I'm also starting to ramble.. So, what do y'all think?

What you're saying could happen. I don't think that it would be something as obvious as Day, likely much more obscure. Now you have me thinking that there is a link between the primeval spren and the moons - maybe the 4th spren went away when the 4th moon was destroyed? I do not think that there would be a 4th sibling to the modern spren, that would likely be known about at this point. Going against this is that the Wind mentions the Stone and Night, but not any others which I feel that it would have there. 

[Jult]

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I do not think the reveal means that Roshar originally had four moons. Possible, of course, but also possible there was 1 moon that, when Adonalsium was shattered, was also destroyed. Then as Honor and Cultivation arrived, so too did the moons associated with them (and their colour) - ditto Odium and the third moon (for that matter, the formation of the moon could have been part of the Rosharan system accepting and adjusting to their Power becoming "part of Roshar"). 

Interesting. I hadn't considered that the moons may have spawned into existence upon the Shards' respective arrivals. Do you think that has something to do with the unusual structure of the Rosharan system? Maybe some strange side effect of Braize's constant attraction of Investiture?

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I doubt there is or was another Shard hiding in the Rosharan system and as far as we know the only tenuous link between Adonalsium and the number 4 is that there are Four Dawnshards - and we don't even know for sure if they started as separated or not.

I'm glad someone else disagrees with the 4th Shard theories floating around. The timeline of events is the biggest issue that I have with that idea (the 4th moon pre-dates the existence of Shards). Also, I think WaT truth gave us a less tenuous link to Adonalsium with this Tanavast quote:

Quote

"Break the Oathpact?” Honor asked.

“Change it, so that others can take our place,” Ishar said. “Or ... or maybe make it allow half of us to
hold the bond for one Isolation, then trade with the other half ..”

"Five?" Honor said. “No, impossible. Five is a number of weakness. No symmetry, no power. Perhaps
four would work. The number of Adonalsium’s four aspects. Or ten, sixteen ... one.”

[Treamayne]

On 4/29/2025 at 9:41 AM, Jult said:

Also, I think WaT truth gave us a less tenuous link to Adonalsium with this Tanavast quote:

Spoiler

"Break the Oathpact?” Honor asked.

“Change it, so that others can take our place,” Ishar said. “Or ... or maybe make it allow half of us to
hold the bond for one Isolation, then trade with the other half ..”

"Five?" Honor said. “No, impossible. Five is a number of weakness. No symmetry, no power. Perhaps
four would work. The number of Adonalsium’s four aspects. Or ten, sixteen ... one.”

I believe that line is about the Dawnshards - the two we know (Change, Exist) could easliy be descibed as Aspects. It seems, to me, that affiliation with a color and number is an aspect of the Shards because of the Shattering (all being pieces that were formally whole - like light through a Prism, once split into different EM bands - each part is only a fraction of what it once was when all combined) - which implies that Adonalsium itself is unlikely to have a color or a number - it was combined, whole and balanced (in theory) not merely an amalgamation of the sum of the parts. 

Edited May 15, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Jult]

16 hours ago, epl2 said:

What you're saying could happen. I don't think that it would be something as obvious as Day, likely much more obscure. Now you have me thinking that there is a link between the primeval spren and the moons - maybe the 4th spren went away when the 4th moon was destroyed? I do not think that there would be a 4th sibling to the modern spren, that would likely be known about at this point. Going against this is that the Wind mentions the Stone and Night, but not any others which I feel that it would have there. 

Wind not mentioning another primeval spren when talking about Stone and Night is a big hole in this theory. The only thing I can think of to fix it is to say that maybe whatever event caused the 4th moon to crash (whether it was the death or departure or some other event related to this Spren) caused enough ripples in the Cognitive or Spiritual realms to affect Wind's memories or connections related to the 4th Spren? Feels admittedly handwavy on my part though.

[Jult]

34 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I believe that line is about the Dawnshards - the two we know (Change, Exist) could easliy be descibed as Aspects. It seems, to me, that affiliation with a color and number is an aspect of the Shards because of the Shattering (all being pieces that were formally whole - light light through a Prism, once split into different EM bands - each part is only a fraction of what it once was when all combined) - which implies that Adonalsium itself is unlikely to have a color or a number - it was combined, whole and balanced (in theory) not merely an amalgamation of the sum of the parts. 

Fair enough. Another thing I literally just stumbled upon was a line in chapter 60 of WaT that I must have glossed right over when reading:

Quote

Chasmfiends could sing.

Each of the beasts rose on an array of feet, turning a thick neck skyward and releasing a quartet of harmonizing notes, for they could call with multiple voices at once. Venli had been warned, but still she thought it remarkable, as she found something familiar in the notes. They vibrated within her, deep down to her gemheart. There were tones to the planet, separate from the rhythms her people heard. Perhaps these were the tones of the gods. But if that was the case, why four?

I got excited and then disappointed by this one. I'm having trouble working it into my 4th primeval spren theory.. Honestly, it probably fits better with the 4th Shard theories I was just critiquing (awkward).

But I guess it could be possible that Honor, Cultivation, and Odium appropriated existing tones that were always part of the planet (someone please let me know if there's text anywhere that supports/contradicts this)? If that's true, then we're back to Adonalsium using fours in Roshar's construction and I'm not completely dead in the water.

[Atlas333]

18 hours ago, Jult said:

What I really want to talk about is primeval spren: Wind, Stone, and Night. I have this idea that they are not a trio and are actually a quartet with a missing member.

I've had this idea in my head for a while, and I keep coming up with more reasons to support it. So, at this point, I want to see if other people are thinking the same way or if I'm just diving into confirmation bias. 

I really started thinking about this when I learned that Roshar and the spren existed before Honor and Cultivation showed up. Adonalsium  tends to be associated with the numbers 4 or 16. So, why create 3 primeval spren? And why 3 moons? But I shrugged it off because 3's show up all over Roshar and most people assume 3 is Cultivation's number.

Then that storming 4th moon showed up.. Okay. So, Adonalsium did create 4 moons. And still only 3 primeval spren? I've heard a lot of people saying that the 4th moon implies a 4th Shard is on Roshar. But the moons pre-date the Shattering, so that never made sense to me. I think it instead implies the existence of a 4th primeval spren.

Just want to point out that the Unkalaki creation myth involves gods of the "water, mountain, and trees." This could potentially match up with the spren of the wind, the stone, and the night, respectively, but it feels like a stretch.

For that reason, I think some kind of "ocean" spren is the most likely fourth member, but this spren has likely long since faded due to ocean travel becoming less common as the storms become more violent.

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, Jult said:

then we're back to Adonalsium using fours in Roshar's construction

Roshar was constructed based on the Julia Set:

Spoiler

BipedSnowman

Does this [map of Roshar] look like a storm to anyone else?

Brandon Sanderson

I was searching for something that at once felt organic, but would hint at a pattern. (Much like cymatic patterns, as referenced in the first book.) Fractals and mathematical functions became my go-to place to hunt, as I like the blend of structure and spontaneity they can sometimes exhibit. The slice of the Julia Set was the one that stuck with me as feeling perfect for Roshar. As the continent was specifically grown by Adonalsium, you now know the seed that was used in-world to create it.

The fact that it looked like a swirling cloud is part of this all--but also part of the connection between natural patterns and the underlying math, which is a primary theme of the Stormlight books. So yes, it SHOULD look like a storm--but for deeper reasons than you might assume.

Argent

I asked Isaac recently, but he suggested you might be the right person for this - do you have a specific equation for the Julia set you used to generate Roshar? I know it resembles a few easily Google-able images of (shadows of slices of) Julia sets, but I was curious if had specific numbers here.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't have any numbers I could give you. Sorry. I might be able to find them, if I looked, but it would take more time than I'd like.

Footnote: The specific equations were determined later in that reddit conversation.
General Reddit 2016 (Sept. 9, 2016)

 

[Ripheus23]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Roshar was constructed based on the Julia Set:

  Reveal hidden contents

BipedSnowman

Does this [map of Roshar] look like a storm to anyone else?

Brandon Sanderson

I was searching for something that at once felt organic, but would hint at a pattern. (Much like cymatic patterns, as referenced in the first book.) Fractals and mathematical functions became my go-to place to hunt, as I like the blend of structure and spontaneity they can sometimes exhibit. The slice of the Julia Set was the one that stuck with me as feeling perfect for Roshar. As the continent was specifically grown by Adonalsium, you now know the seed that was used in-world to create it.

The fact that it looked like a swirling cloud is part of this all--but also part of the connection between natural patterns and the underlying math, which is a primary theme of the Stormlight books. So yes, it SHOULD look like a storm--but for deeper reasons than you might assume.

Argent

I asked Isaac recently, but he suggested you might be the right person for this - do you have a specific equation for the Julia set you used to generate Roshar? I know it resembles a few easily Google-able images of (shadows of slices of) Julia sets, but I was curious if had specific numbers here.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't have any numbers I could give you. Sorry. I might be able to find them, if I looked, but it would take more time than I'd like.

Footnote: The specific equations were determined later in that reddit conversation.
General Reddit 2016 (Sept. 9, 2016)

As luck would have it, the number 4 turns out to be important in the theory of the Julia set: see here. One direction is theoretical and preceding: 4D-space is the defining space of the set. The other direction is practical and succeeding: the number 4 is typically used in a sort of "escape barrier/threshold" parameter for the fractal of the set.

[Jult]

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Roshar was constructed based on the Julia Set:

  Hide contents

BipedSnowman

Does this [map of Roshar] look like a storm to anyone else?

Brandon Sanderson

I was searching for something that at once felt organic, but would hint at a pattern. (Much like cymatic patterns, as referenced in the first book.) Fractals and mathematical functions became my go-to place to hunt, as I like the blend of structure and spontaneity they can sometimes exhibit. The slice of the Julia Set was the one that stuck with me as feeling perfect for Roshar. As the continent was specifically grown by Adonalsium, you now know the seed that was used in-world to create it.

The fact that it looked like a swirling cloud is part of this all--but also part of the connection between natural patterns and the underlying math, which is a primary theme of the Stormlight books. So yes, it SHOULD look like a storm--but for deeper reasons than you might assume.

Argent

I asked Isaac recently, but he suggested you might be the right person for this - do you have a specific equation for the Julia set you used to generate Roshar? I know it resembles a few easily Google-able images of (shadows of slices of) Julia sets, but I was curious if had specific numbers here.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't have any numbers I could give you. Sorry. I might be able to find them, if I looked, but it would take more time than I'd like.

Footnote: The specific equations were determined later in that reddit conversation.
General Reddit 2016 (Sept. 9, 2016)

 

And my wife laughed at me in college when I enrolled in a class called 'Chaos and Fractals'. Said it would "never be relevant to anything I do". Joke's on her. It just saved me at least two Google searches. 

Also, that is very fun fact that I did not know.

24 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

As luck would have it, the number 4 turns out to be important in the theory of the Julia set: see here. One direction is theoretical and preceding: 4D-space is the defining space of the set. The other direction is practical and succeeding: the number 4 is typically used in a sort of "escape barrier/threshold" parameter for the fractal of the set.

Also, a fun fact! But the fact that Roshar's map is literally one of the examples on the page that you linked makes me feel like it's probably a common example that Brandon picked because it looked cool and resembles a storm more than any other reason. We may be digging a bit too deep now.

[Ripheus23]

7 minutes ago, Jult said:

And my wife laughed at me in college when I enrolled in a class called 'Chaos and Fractals'. Said it would "never be relevant to anything I do". Joke's on her. It just saved me at least two Google searches. 

Also, that is very fun fact that I did not know.

Also, a fun fact! But the fact that Roshar's map is literally one of the examples on the page that you linked makes me feel like it's probably a common example that Brandon picked because it looked cool and resembles a storm more than any other reason. We may be digging a bit too deep now.

I have seen Sanderson lay deep Easter eggs about mathematics and metaphysics throughout his Cosmere saga, so IDK... Like also 2^4 = 4^2 = 2^2^2 = 16, I think that's probably relevant somehow. It's the unique equation of its kind for the natural numbers, IIRC.

We might then have to look for sequences that have 4 (and other "magic"/Shardic numbers) as their outcome or basis, or at least as a stage, and "importantize"(?) build-up and component numbers accordingly, e.g as with 2*5 = 10, or 10 - 1 = 9.

[Jult]

1 hour ago, Atlas333 said:

Just want to point out that the Unkalaki creation myth involves gods of the "water, mountain, and trees." This could potentially match up with the spren of the wind, the stone, and the night, respectively, but it feels like a stretch.

For that reason, I think some kind of "ocean" spren is the most likely fourth member, but this spren has likely long since faded due to ocean travel becoming less common as the storms become more violent.

I like this take. Maybe even better than I like 'Day' as a potential identity for this spren. A water-based spren could be tied to some of the more unusual water-related phenomena like the Weeping or the Purelake.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

I know that Cusicesh is not the 4th spren, but it almost feels like it when talking about it being water-based. Also, the rhythms did exist on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived. 

[Jult]

I guess also in the category of unusual water phenomenon there's the Great Abyss whirlpool near Uvara.. If Uvara actually exists, that is.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

I had forgotten about that one. Although I feel a whirlpool is probably too mundane for Brandon to have made it as the 4th spren. 

[the_archduke]

Probably the Lifebrother, who may be associated with the sun (I swear Szeth said the sun was the eye of the Lifebrother or something similar)

 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lifebrother

[Jult]

6 hours ago, epl2 said:

I had forgotten about that one. Although I feel a whirlpool is probably too mundane for Brandon to have made it as the 4th spren. 

It's barely mentioned. I had forgotten it too. I don't think the Spren would be the whirlpool itself. But it could reside at the bottom of it or something. They describe it as 'the place the ocean drains' or something along those lines. Which makes it sound fairly massive for a whirlpool.

[Jult]

5 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Probably the Lifebrother, who may be associated with the sun (I swear Szeth said the sun was the eye of the Lifebrother or something similar)

 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lifebrother

Wow I don't even remember the Lifebrother, so I dug up the reference. Not Szeth, but Pozen (the Elsecaller Honorbearer) speaking to Szeth as a child in WaT chapter 57:

Quote

"Our chain of command," the Honorbearer said, "ends at the Heralds, who serve the Lifebrother -spren of the soil- and the spren of the mountains, sun, and moons. They, in turn report to God himself. Do you question these?"

Interestingly, the only other mention of the Lifebrother I could find was in WoK where Szeth refers to him as a Vorin god.. Which feels inconsistent.

His name fits a similar pattern to Stormfather and Nightwatcher (although so does the Dustmother's so I'm not sure if we should count that in our favor; especially since the Sibling doesn't follow the pattern). The wording is tricky. I'm not 100% sure on if he's associating the Lifebrother with the soil, mountains, sun, and moons. Or if he's listing 4 different spren. If he is, maybe:

Soil = Stone

Mountain = Wind

Moons = Night

Sun = ??Day??

Fully conscious of the fact that I'm really stretching with Wind being the spren of the Mountain in that mapping. But it's fun to throw out guesses. It's also possible that Pozen is saying 'spren' in the general sense. As is "the near infinite number of mountain, sun, and moon spren"

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

10 hours ago, Jult said:

Wow I don't even remember the Lifebrother, so I dug up the reference. Not Szeth, but Pozen (the Elsecaller Honorbearer) speaking to Szeth as a child in WaT chapter 57:

Interestingly, the only other mention of the Lifebrother I could find was in WoK where Szeth refers to him as a Vorin god.. Which feels inconsistent.

His name fits a similar pattern to Stormfather and Nightwatcher (although so does the Dustmother's so I'm not sure if we should count that in our favor; especially since the Sibling doesn't follow the pattern). The wording is tricky. I'm not 100% sure on if he's associating the Lifebrother with the soil, mountains, sun, and moons. Or if he's listing 4 different spren. If he is, maybe:

Soil = Stone

Mountain = Wind

Moons = Night

Sun = ??Day??

Fully conscious of the fact that I'm really stretching with Wind being the spren of the Mountain in that mapping. But it's fun to throw out guesses. It's also possible that Pozen is saying 'spren' in the general sense. As is "the near infinite number of mountain, sun, and moon spren"

Reading over that scene, it looks like Pozen is saying that the Lifebrother is the spren of the soil, and the Heralds follow its direction, as well as those of the other spren (like the spren of mountains, sun, and moons). Stone Shamanism and Vorinism do have some overlapping features, so it is entirely possible that the Lifebrother is a Vorin figure, just not in a sect that we are familiar with. Given how soil only exists in Shinovar, though, he may not have been saying that the Lifebrother is a spren of soil as it would initially appear. I do think that it was mentioned enough, but obscure enough that Brandon could pull a reveal that it was the 4th primeval spren, so a viable option. 

[Jult]

6 minutes ago, epl2 said:

Reading over that scene, it looks like Pozen is saying that the Lifebrother is the spren of the soil, and the Heralds follow its direction, as well as those of the other spren (like the spren of mountains, sun, and moons). Stone Shamanism and Vorinism do have some overlapping features, so it is entirely possible that the Lifebrother is a Vorin figure, just not in a sect that we are familiar with. Given how soil only exists in Shinovar, though, he may not have been saying that the Lifebrother is a spren of soil as it would initially appear. I do think that it was mentioned enough, but obscure enough that Brandon could pull a reveal that it was the 4th primeval spren, so a viable option. 

Wish I could find more references to him.

I gave this some more thought overnight. I don't know if I'd consider Lifebrother as a potential primeval spren. He could be. But I think he'd fit in better with Nightwatcher, Stormfather, and the Sibling than he would with Night, Wind, and Stone. I'd say he's more likely to be created from the 4th primeval spren (as Stormfather was created from Wind), than he is to actually be the 4th primeval spren. Which could mean there's potential for a 4th modern-day Bondsmith.

Idk though. That's all gut feeling speculation from the little that we know. I don't have much to back it up with.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

10 minutes ago, Jult said:

Wish I could find more references to him.

I gave this some more thought overnight. I don't know if I'd consider Lifebrother as a potential primeval spren. He could be. But I think he'd fit in better with Nightwatcher, Stormfather, and the Sibling than he would with Night, Wind, and Stone. I'd say he's more likely to be created from the 4th primeval spren (as Stormfather was created from Wind), than he is to actually be the 4th primeval spren. Which could mean there's potential for a 4th modern-day Bondsmith.

Idk though. That's all gut feeling speculation from the little that we know. I don't have much to back it up with.

I don't think that there could be a 4th modern spren, because we would know about it at this point. The Stormfather, Sibling, or Heralds would have mentioned it, assuming they knew about it, and I cannot think of any motivation of Honor or Cultivation to keep it a secret if it could help their cause. 

[Jult]

32 minutes ago, epl2 said:

I don't think that there could be a 4th modern spren, because we would know about it at this point. The Stormfather, Sibling, or Heralds would have mentioned it, assuming they knew about it, and I cannot think of any motivation of Honor or Cultivation to keep it a secret if it could help their cause. 

Probably true. I mean the Heralds' minds are mostly broken. And Stormfather and the Sibling's memories have been spotty (sometimes intentionally). So, Brandon could get around it. But it's definitely not my preferred scenario. So, I'm not sure how to work Lifebrother into this particular theory. 

My preferred scenario would be that:

• There was a 4th primeval spren (Day/Water/Whatever - I'm just going to write #4 from now on).
• It was associated with the 4th Tone of Roshar and completed a quartet with Wind, Stone, and Night.
• Then 'something' bad happened to #4 resulting in the destruction of its moon and making it some kind of deadeye type entity.
• Then Cultivation, Honor, and Odium arrive (completely unaware of #4's existence) changed the whole system.
• The entirety of Era 1 happens

So, basically #4 would be dormant or wandering in Shadesmar somewhere like the deadeyes were. I don't want to make too many deadeye connections because they were obviously created through a different process. But I do think #4 will be analogous to them in the sense that it won't just be gone. I think it will still exist in some very difficult to restore form. 

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

I had not considered that when I said it. Being a deadeye is definitely an interesting take that could happen, and would be really interesting to see. In addition, it would probably not be in the Physical Realm in a recognisable form, if at all, so it could be hiding that way. Solid theory. 

[Aeshdan he/him]

On 4/29/2025 at 10:43 AM, Jult said:

But I guess it could be possible that Honor, Cultivation, and Odium appropriated existing tones that were always part of the planet (someone please let me know if there's text anywhere that supports/contradicts this)? If that's true, then we're back to Adonalsium using fours in Roshar's construction and I'm not completely dead in the water.

In a certain sense, that's very plausible. Sanderson has talked before about how the Shards and their Investitures in a sense always existed, even before Adonalsium's shattering. In the Shattering, a certain portion of Adonalsium's Investiture was labeled as belonging to Cultivation, and another as belonging to Honor, and so on, but those powers had always existed and done what they did even before the Shattering.