Kelsier's Allomantic Limitations

[Trusk'our he/him]

A big question since the release of TLM- why can't Kelsier use his Allomancy? 

It's been proposed that Kelsier's Allomancy inhibition could be a side effect of using a Mistwraith body, but I find this particularly unlikely, given that Kandra can use Lerasium and Bleeder shows us they can use Hemalurgy to gain powers. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/60-firefight-san-francisco-signing/#e6753

Questioner

Can a kandra burn things if they-- could they burn lerasium--and if they did would they be able to burn other things?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes that is possible. It is even plausible that an kandra could gain other powers, they just don't know how to do it.

I also don't think it's because he's a Cognitive Shadow, as we see Returned, Fused, and Heralds all use MoIs without issue. 

Furthermore, I doubt it's because his flesh (may) be from a Mistwraith, as Fused are more than capable of using their Surges while possessing another Singer's body (with the process of taking Forms and possessing gemhearts being related to Hemalurgy even). 

 

I think, then, it's a matter of Hemalurgy. Or rather, Kelsier's unique interaction with Ruin's art. 

Hemalurgy can no longer be used to the same extent as it once was. Khriss believes it's due to the balance of souls in the Cosmere and Ruin's subservience to Preservation. 

Basically, my thinking is that Kel, being a Sliver/CS/Mistborn, is highly suffused with Preservation's essence. If a regular person cannot bear more than a handful of spikes before their souls reject additional powers, than Kelsier's soul may spit out Hemalurgic powers after far less corruption. 

What about his innate powers? What of Sazed's remarks on Lerasium being ineffective in his current state? I think this is facing a similar phenomenon. 

If Kelsier's Spiritweb partially rejects his spike, perhaps only the bare minimum functions can come of it- a warping of his eye bindpoint and just enough of a Connection to regain control over his bones that already have an established Connection, but not enough to metabolize metals. It honestly might not even graft anything to his Spiritweb, but may just be a sort of "pathway" between his spirit and body because of the hole it makes in his Spiritweb. 

Thoughts?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Sound theory. 

I find the part of 'Kel's soul being too saturated with preservation' to be quite interesting, that's an angle I've never thought of, yet it makes a decent amount of sense.

I wonder if a Modern-Day Mistborn would also have stricter limitations on Hemalurgy as well? 

 

Though personally, I think a big difference between Kel and other Cognitive Shadows like Heralds, Fused and Returned is that those were made with the direct intervention of gods, who have the best understanding of Realmatics, Spiritwebs and how they all work, while Kelsier has had to figure it all out himself.

So, I think another reason may be that his method is simply imperfect and is in dire need of proper refinement, with the only person who could do that quite easily, Harmony, being unwilling to for his own reasons.

 

Though one very annoying detail remains unanswerable.

How could Kel store a memory in an Unsealed Coppermind, but not be able to use the Bands of Mourning to regain his Allomancy? He said that he is still searching for a way to use Allomancy, so that means that the Bands must not work for him. But why? What does it mean? Is the memory in the Coppermind not actually his? Is he somehow lying to himself? Did he not actually have a hand in making the Bands? Rust it all! We need a Secret History 2 already!

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Sound theory. 

Thanks!

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

 I wonder if a Modern-Day Mistborn would also have stricter limitations on Hemalurgy as well? 

I'm leaning in that direction, though honestly being a Sliver of Preservation and literally being made up entirely of the Shard's Investiture by this point is probably an even bigger deal.

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Though one very annoying detail remains unanswerable.

How could Kel store a memory in an Unsealed Coppermind, but not be able to use the Bands of Mourning to regain his Allomancy? He said that he is still searching for a way to use Allomancy, so that means that the Bands must not work for him. But why? What does it mean? Is the memory in the Coppermind not actually his? Is he somehow lying to himself? Did he not actually have a hand in making the Bands? Rust it all! We need a Secret History 2 already!

Anything about the Bands is confusing. It feels like their reveal was really meant for Era 3, since we still know almost nothing about their history. 

But, I've kinda assumed Kelsier could use the Bands since he seems to be capable of using Unsealed Metalminds, but that they were taken and hidden or something by another person before he got his body back. Probably Spook.

But I'd have to go back and look at the story given by the Southern Scadrians. I thought I remembered it not really lining up with this idea.

[DoctaDajman]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Thanks!

I'm leaning in that direction, though honestly being a Sliver of Preservation and literally being made up entirely of the Shard's Investiture by this point is probably an even bigger deal.

Anything about the Bands is confusing. It feels like their reveal was really meant for Era 3, since we still know almost nothing about their history. 

But, I've kinda assumed Kelsier could use the Bands since he seems to be capable of using Unsealed Metalminds, but that they were taken and hidden or something by another person before he got his body back. Probably Spook.

But I'd have to go back and look at the story given by the Southern Scadrians. I thought I remembered it not really lining up with this idea.

I'll be honest. I sort of half expected Kelsier to be lying about the whole thing. I didn't realize that Harmony himself has spoken on the fact. 

Do you think if a Returned were to gift Kelsier their healing breath it would restore him or the body his spike is currently sitting in?  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

I'll be honest. I sort of half expected Kelsier to be lying about the whole thing.

He might be. He's currently lying to the Ghostbloods about his Allomancy being functional.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509-youtube-spoiler-stream-5/#e16002

Sethcran

When Kelsier said in The Lost Metal that he couldn't Steelpush over water, do the Ghostbloods think that Kelsier has his Allomantic powers, and is he lying to them about it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they think he has Allomantic powers still.

 

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

Do you think if a Returned were to gift Kelsier their healing breath it would restore him or the body his spike is currently sitting in?  

Divine Breaths can't be given to another to function as it would for the Returned, which would have made me say no.

But since I recently remembered that Invested healing is basically just Connection between the physical and spiritual aspects (and that Regrowth can Reconnect a recently killed person to their body), this might actually work.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122-leipzig-book-fair/#e3326

Questioner

You have this technical approach to Allomantic powers. But Feruchemy seems to me very different. So it's not very logical that you can store up health. What is health?

Brandon Sanderson

Well. I feel that it is. But it has its own definitions. In the Cosmere perception - I don't know if you know...

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

... it really affects... It's kind of more like a concept of heallth. The idea of your body's ability to recuperate quickly. The magic system translates to your body's ability to match your spiritual self. When that is depleted, your body in the Cosmere starts to stray (? a bit indistinctive in the recording). Foreign things can get into it, diseases get into you, and your spirit can get a little more corrupted. Your body getting corrupted, your spirit's not getting corrupted. You get it, and it makes you extra connected to your spiritual sense. Your body moves to match it closely and better.

Questioner

So the same about speed and ...

Brandon Sanderson

Those are a little different. But each has their little behind the scenes explanation for myself. The problem is... The physics of it is very Cosmere-physics for Feruchemy, whereas for Allomancy it's a lot more out world physics with a different power source. We're changing that. But the physics do work for me. But obviously it's magic, so I'm breaking them anyway.

 

[DoctaDajman]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

He might be. He's currently lying to the Ghostbloods about his Allomancy being functional.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509-youtube-spoiler-stream-5/#e16002

Sethcran

When Kelsier said in The Lost Metal that he couldn't Steelpush over water, do the Ghostbloods think that Kelsier has his Allomantic powers, and is he lying to them about it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they think he has Allomantic powers still.

 

Divine Breaths can't be given to another to function as it would for the Returned, which would have made me say no.

But since I recently remembered that Invested healing is basically just Connection between the physical and spiritual aspects (and that Regrowth can Reconnect a recently killed person to their body), this might actually work.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122-leipzig-book-fair/#e3326

Questioner

You have this technical approach to Allomantic powers. But Feruchemy seems to me very different. So it's not very logical that you can store up health. What is health?

Brandon Sanderson

Well. I feel that it is. But it has its own definitions. In the Cosmere perception - I don't know if you know...

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

... it really affects... It's kind of more like a concept of heallth. The idea of your body's ability to recuperate quickly. The magic system translates to your body's ability to match your spiritual self. When that is depleted, your body in the Cosmere starts to stray (? a bit indistinctive in the recording). Foreign things can get into it, diseases get into you, and your spirit can get a little more corrupted. Your body getting corrupted, your spirit's not getting corrupted. You get it, and it makes you extra connected to your spiritual sense. Your body moves to match it closely and better.

Questioner

So the same about speed and ...

Brandon Sanderson

Those are a little different. But each has their little behind the scenes explanation for myself. The problem is... The physics of it is very Cosmere-physics for Feruchemy, whereas for Allomancy it's a lot more out world physics with a different power source. We're changing that. But the physics do work for me. But obviously it's magic, so I'm breaking them anyway.

 

I should clarify. Not that the divine breath be given to him to make him as a Returned, but that a Returned say the words and command their breath to his. 

Would it heal him to his old kelsier self with that spirit web back to what it was 300 years ago.  Or would it heal the spirit web of the body that the spike is currently sitting in and Kelsiers brain gets yeeted back into the cognitive realm... or worse?  

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

18 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Would it heal him to his old kelsier self with that spirit web back to what it was 300 years ago.  Or would it heal the spirit web of the body that the spike is currently sitting in and Kelsiers brain gets yeeted back into the cognitive realm... or worse?  

I imagine it depends on the Intent of the Returned doing the healing. It would be kind of funky to try to ejected Kel out of his host body like that, but I guess it's a way to mess with him. Kinda pricey considering how much of a hassle recruiting a Returned to self-destruct as an attack that isn't even certain to actually eliminate the target though.

But if they wanted to restore him to having a full mind-body-spirit unity, I don't see why they couldn't? The amount of magic power that a Divine Breath seems to represent feels like it could make a new body for him and attach him to it securely. Maybe he is too heavily Invested to manipulate the whole "I am 300 years old" part of his spirit web, so that could also be a risk, but it would be kind of weird.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/18/2025 at 6:39 PM, DoctaDajman said:

I should clarify. Not that the divine breath be given to him to make him as a Returned, but that a Returned say the words and command their breath to his. 

Would it heal him to his old kelsier self with that spirit web back to what it was 300 years ago.  Or would it heal the spirit web of the body that the spike is currently sitting in and Kelsiers brain gets yeeted back into the cognitive realm... or worse?  

It probably depends a lot on perception and whether a Cognitive Shadow can be "healed" back to their old body, or if like a Returned they'd need something to anchor them artificially. 

Thinking on it further, I'll actually change my stance, since a CS is basically a Spren- their Connections to the Realms have been replaced with Investiture, so having a body is probably not their natural state.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98-worldbuilders-ama/#e857

danimalod

I just read Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell and loved it. How did the first shade come to be? Are there shades in other worlds? Do shades have bones?

Brandon Sanderson

Shades are what we call "Cognitive Shadows" in the cosmere. They're basically "spren" or "[seons]" created from human souls. (Where Investiture--or magical power--keeps a consciousness alive after it has lost its Physical connection.) Yes, shades all once had bodies.

Think of them like petrified souls, where instead of stone replacing the tissue of a corpse, magical power replaced the parts of a soul that connect that soul to the Three Realms.

As such, a Returned shouldn't be able to be healed back to their body. The Divine Breath staples them to it. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406-general-reddit-2020/#e14149

Haverworthy

Just had a question, when a Returned consumes a Breath, is it a property of their body that does so or the Divine Breath itself? It's been contentious in the community. If it's specifically just their body and a hemalurgist were to spike a Divine Breath as indicated was possible here*, would the hemalurgist not need to consume a weekly breath?

*https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364/#e11389

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very interesting question. The thing that requires the Returned to continue gaining investiture is their nature as cognitive shadows--they are dead, and in this case, need a power source to continue persisting in the physical realm. The Divine Breath is part of this. Imagine the Divine Breath as the thing that Infuses their soul, making it persist initially, and then and sticks it to the body. So if you stole it, but you yourself were not in need of being kept alive, I would say that you wouldn't need to be fed a new breath each week to maintain the Divine Breath.

So no, I don't think a Returned trying to heal Kelsier would circumvent his limitations.

[Cosmer]

@Trusk'our what do we think Kelsier could have done with the unkeyed Dor from TLM? Was he saving that for the others 100% knowing he couldn’t really do anything with it regardless? Would it have done nothing whatsoever?

[Trusk'our he/him]

41 minutes ago, Cosmer said:

@Trusk'our what do we think Kelsier could have done with the unkeyed Dor from TLM? Was he saving that for the others 100% knowing he couldn’t really do anything with it regardless? Would it have done nothing whatsoever?

Good question.

I'm honestly not sure if he could use it. It seems very likely he can use Unsealed Metalminds, but they provide not only the fuel, but the ability to utilize that fuel in a meaningful way too. I'd guess he could not use Dor in his current state, not without extra aid, like from a medallion (which from what we've seen still seems largely limited).

But Dor is still very useful for his Invested agents, and Kelsier is a team player, at least when he feels so inclined. Having the best Forger alive juiced up on concentrated Investiture is a tool anybody would kill to have.

What I'm most curious about is why he didn't think to give Marsh a bit of Dor to fuel his depleting Atiummind. Perhaps Marsh just didn't let on? Or, maybe Feruchemy needs an extra step before using an external source?