Long Term Shardic Conflict

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, SpartanBrigade said:

I got the idea that the two of them plan on kinda ignoring each other until they’re the last two at which point they’d attack one another, especially since Autonomy ignored the formation of Retribution to go attack Scadrial. It seems like for the time being they’re not interested in fighting, Retribution because he just wants to hide right now and Autonomy just doesn’t seem to care and is focused on Harmony instead. I’m not 100% sure though what are your thoughts?

I do not think Autonomy would ever attack Odium or any other Shard. Bavadin plays the Long Game, and her actions with Trell and Jaddeth were well in motion before Taravangian combined Shards. I would be surprised if she did not already have things in motion against Retribution while Era 2 happened on Scadrial, but there was almost no-chance her response would happen that quickly anyway.

Frankly, I would not be surprised if we find out that at least one reason BAM started the False Desolation was because Autonomy was interfering in the religion of the Singers while Odium was trapped on Braize - and, if that is correct; then BAM now being released only gives her an already-placed-pawn to start using against Retribution without even seeming to move against him at all (yet).

[Ashbringer he/him]

I'll also note, on the topic of Autonomy - I wouldn't be too surprised if she had a hand in The Final Empire. She's wary of Scadrial because of their technological advancements being close to Taldain's, and that's after Rashek put technological advancements for a thousand years...

[AlmightyGir]

A couple of notes here:

15 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

That's sort of cherry picking though, especially with the WaT quote. This is the full excerpt 
"Part of the power within him was … concerned. Had he acted with honor toward Gavinor? I did everything I promised him, Taravangian thought. I brought him to get revenge, to claim his kingdom. I never said I wouldn’t interfere. All I did was perfectly in line with my oaths to Gavinor. It was true. The power acknowledged it. That should be that. It calmed while Taravangian pondered. He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn’t he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor … Honor wanted desperately to follow it—and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him. As he determined to do so, Honor swelled inside him, and more fully bonded into Retribution."

I think you're also cherry picking, by highlighting this line. But there is an interpretation mis-match as well. This, to me at least, reads that "As Big T gave in to Honor's wishes, Honor was more willing to fully bond to Retribution". This means that actually, T has less control, not more.

15 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

There's also this from WaT Chapter 145
"Taravangian, Retribution, reveled in his new strength. He was more powerful than anything. Only one other came close, but those powers were misaligned, while Honor and Odium wanted nearly the same things. They would work together."

Are we to take T's perspective as cosmeric gospel now? This is how he views Harmony, and himself. It's not objective truth.

15 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

The reason he was able to use them together and create and master both Shards here seems to be because he 'was of one mind on how to use them'. He was still fresh to the power, the same reason Viservation was able to kill Ati. By the time Era 2 rolls around the Shards' Intent has warped him and he's of two minds on how to use them. That was my take on it anyway.

The same also goes for Retribution. Give a few decades and T will already have started to pull heavily towards the combined intents of:
KEEP YOUR OATHS OR GET THE STICK.

If anything, he's now even more vulnerable, as all someone needs to do is convince the powers that he has broken his word, any word, and he could potentially find himself compromised. And while T is probably one of the smartest people on Roshar, are we sure he can out-play other shards who are millenia old at this point?

[LeondeBowa]

I would also point out that on average the smarter a person is, the easier it is to fool them because they work from the assumption they know what you are doing and that they would see anything you do coming

Edited April 10, 2025 by LeondeBowa

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I do not think Autonomy would ever attack Odium or any other Shard. Bavadin plays the Long Game, and her actions with Trell and Jaddeth were well in motion before Taravangian combined Shards. I would be surprised if she did not already have things in motion against Retribution while Era 2 happened on Scadrial, but there was almost no-chance her response would happen that quickly anyway.

Frankly, I would not be surprised if we find out that at least one reason BAM started the False Desolation was because Autonomy was interfering in the religion of the Singers while Odium was trapped on Braize - and, if that is correct; then BAM now being released only gives her an already-placed-pawn to start using against Retribution without even seeming to move against him at all (yet).

Wait Jaddeth? Like the Selish deity Jaddeth? That was her doing? Also I really like that BAM theory. Do you think her plan is to have BAM take up Odium instead?

4 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

A couple of notes here:

I think you're also cherry picking, by highlighting this line. But there is an interpretation mis-match as well. This, to me at least, reads that "As Big T gave in to Honor's wishes, Honor was more willing to fully bond to Retribution". This means that actually, T has less control, not more.

Are we to take T's perspective as cosmeric gospel now? This is how he views Harmony, and himself. It's not objective truth.

The same also goes for Retribution. Give a few decades and T will already have started to pull heavily towards the combined intents of:
KEEP YOUR OATHS OR GET THE STICK.

If anything, he's now even more vulnerable, as all someone needs to do is convince the powers that he has broken his word, any word, and he could potentially find himself compromised. And while T is probably one of the smartest people on Roshar, are we sure he can out-play other shards who are millenia old at this point?

Yeah fair those are all good points 

[Treamayne]

38 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Wait Jaddeth? Like the Selish deity Jaddeth?

Likely, not definite. WoBs:

Spoiler

strican

In The Lost Metal, it mentions Autonomy having avatars in other worlds. In Shu-Dereth on Sel, Jaddeth speaks directly to Wyrn, who then propagates his will down the hierarchy-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

strican

Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. That sounds similar to the philosophy used in the Set, but replacing Jaddeth with Trell. Is Jaddeth an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

*chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person.

It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ...

So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth].

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Referenced previous WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Speaking of sequels, here's what I'M planning. A book that takes place ten years after the events of ELANTRIS. It would occur in the capitol city of Fjorden, and would star Kiin's children as viewpoint characters along with a Seon viewpoint character. The plot of the book: Wyrn has declared that Jaddeth, the Derethi God, is going to finally return. (A new interpretation of the scriptures says that he'll return when everyone east of the mountains converts, so they don't have to worry about Teod and Arelon.) Kiin's family, ambassadors to the Fjordell state, has to deal with the chaos of this announcement, and investigate the truth behind the Dakhor magic. Thoughts?

Brandon's Blog 2006 (Sept. 27, 2006)

 

Also - the Arelon Chasm:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

So, in Elantris, the earthquake that created the chasm, was that caused by Shards, by some powers...?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't really dug into that, but the number one thing people assume is that it was the shattering of Dominion and Devotion, which is not the case. They were broken much earlier. The Splintering of them happened much earlier.

Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

Quote

Mi'chelle Walker

Was the Reod natural?

Brandon Sanderson

The Reod natural? *laughs*

Mi'chelle Walker

Here’s the thing, you’ve answered this question for us already, we just need it on audio.

Josh Walker

It wasn’t the Reod that was the question it was was the earthquake natural?

Mi'chelle Walker

No, Eric’s [Chaos] asking if the Reod was natural.

Josh Walker

To heck with Eric, we don’t care about him.

Mi'chelle Walker

You’ve told us that the earthquake was not caused by natural events.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, but it’s a complicated question because the earthquake was not caused by natural, but the Reod was a natural effect of the earthquake, then... does that make sense? So the Reod is natural, a natural result of... does that make sense? That’s why it was a tricky question.

Mi'chelle Walker

But the earthquake was not natural.

Brandon Sanderson

No, it was not.

Aaron

So the Reod is a natural reaction to an unnatural occurrence.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Josh Walker

And wasn’t it because there was like magical strain on the land?

Brandon Sanderson

That is certainly part of what was going on.

West Jordan signing 2012 (Dec. 6, 2012)

 

 

Edited April 10, 2025 by Treamayne

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Likely, not definite. WoBs:

  Hide contents

strican

In The Lost Metal, it mentions Autonomy having avatars in other worlds. In Shu-Dereth on Sel, Jaddeth speaks directly to Wyrn, who then propagates his will down the hierarchy-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

strican

Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. That sounds similar to the philosophy used in the Set, but replacing Jaddeth with Trell. Is Jaddeth an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

*chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person.

It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ...

So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth].

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Referenced previous WoB:

 

Also - the Arelon Chasm:

  Hide contents

 

 

Oh wow thanks I always just figured Fjordel was lying through their pearly whites as an excuse for expansion It never occurred to me Jaddeth might be an actual thing. So this would mean Autonomy was probably the one who struck down Elantris to make her conquest of Sel easier?

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

So this would mean Autonomy was probably the one who struck down Elantris to make her conquest of Sel easier?

That's the implication, but Brandon has pulled fast-ones before. . .