Long Term Shardic Conflict

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

Okay, I obviously don't know where this story is headed, just like everyone else, so bear with me.

However, if it is headed in a direction that might eventually let Retribution and Harmony face off, then I believe that Kelsier is right to be scared of Harmony not being decisive enough to act against Retribution. Even if you don't believe this to be the future of the cosmere, what do you think would happen if this hypothetically happened?

The stark difference between Retribution's drive to act and plan and scheme, and Harmony's indecisive contentment is dangerous for the Cosmere. As the only other dishardic entity in the Cosmere, he needs to branch out and find ways to let his shards work together. I think Harmony would get splintered by Retribution if they were to face off as the Cosmere currently stands. What do you all think?

follow-up question, Which shard or potential combination of shards is best poised to stop Retribution?

follow-up to that follow-up, do you think Retribution would ever also take up the shard of Cultivation, becoming the first trishardic being?

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

Edited April 9, 2025 by Chaos

[Trusk'our he/him]

33 minutes ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

Okay, I obviously don't know where this story is headed, just like everyone else, so bear with me.

However, if it is headed in a direction that might eventually let Retribution and Harmony face off, then I believe that Kelsier is right to be scared of Harmony not being decisive enough to act against Retribution. Even if you don't believe this to be the future of the cosmere, what do you think would happen if this hypothetically happened?

The stark difference between Retribution's drive to act and plan and scheme, and Harmony's indecisive contentment is dangerous for the Cosmere. As the only other dishardic entity in the Cosmere, he needs to branch out and find ways to let his shards work together. I think Harmony would get splintered by Retribution if they were to face off as the Cosmere currently stands. What do you all think?

follow-up question, Which shard or potential combination of shards is best poised to stop Retribution?

follow-up to that follow-up, do you think Retribution would ever also take up the shard of Cultivation, becoming the first trishardic being?

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

Hey there, welcome to the Shard!

Your topic's title is visible from outside the Forum and contains spoilery content. Editing it to be more vague (especially removing Retribution's name) would be ideal.

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

14 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Hey there, welcome to the Shard!

Your topic's title is visible from outside the Forum and contains spoilery content. Editing it to be more vague (especially removing Retribution's name) would be ideal.

Hey, thank you for fixing that, I mistakenly thought that spoilers would be allowed in this forum. I will definitely keep that in mind for next post.

Edited April 9, 2025 by Obeythelaw7
Edited this to remove a silly question that I found unnecessary because apparently replying will bring your post closer to the top.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Harmony, as it stands, would get battered by Retribution, you know why?

Because Autonomy, with just an Avatar, was able to encroach on Scadrial and very nearly destroy it and Harmony was almost completely powerless the whole way through. 

A Double-Shard who isn't crippled into inaction by opposing Intents, and is thus not only Harmony's equal in power but far more able to use that power? No contest. 

Pretty sure the only thing stopping Retribution from trying is because that would get the other Shard's attention and could cause them to rally to Harmony's support, since they'd be much more okay with Harmony's more restrictively passive existence as opposed to Retribution's unbound hostility.

Harmony's inevitable transformation into Discord will definitely lead to a different outcome, though whether it'll be a better or worse outcome I have no idea.

 

Edited April 9, 2025 by JustQuestin2004

[bmcclure7]

17 hours ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

Okay, I obviously don't know where this story is headed, just like everyone else, so bear with me.

However, if it is headed in a direction that might eventually let Retribution and Harmony face off, then I believe that Kelsier is right to be scared of Harmony not being decisive enough to act against Retribution. Even if you don't believe this to be the future of the cosmere, what do you think would happen if this hypothetically happened?

The stark difference between Retribution's drive to act and plan and scheme, and Harmony's indecisive contentment is dangerous for the Cosmere. As the only other dishardic entity in the Cosmere, he needs to branch out and find ways to let his shards work together. I think Harmony would get splintered by Retribution if they were to face off as the Cosmere currently stands. What do you all think?

follow-up question, Which shard or potential combination of shards is best poised to stop Retribution?

follow-up to that follow-up, do you think Retribution would ever also take up the shard of Cultivation, becoming the first trishardic being?

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

A devotion and dominion shard be quite powerful. I could actually see that happening in the future a third bi shard 

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

17 hours ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

Okay, I obviously don't know where this story is headed, just like everyone else, so bear with me.

However, if it is headed in a direction that might eventually let Retribution and Harmony face off, then I believe that Kelsier is right to be scared of Harmony not being decisive enough to act against Retribution. Even if you don't believe this to be the future of the cosmere, what do you think would happen if this hypothetically happened?

The stark difference between Retribution's drive to act and plan and scheme, and Harmony's indecisive contentment is dangerous for the Cosmere. As the only other dishardic entity in the Cosmere, he needs to branch out and find ways to let his shards work together. I think Harmony would get splintered by Retribution if they were to face off as the Cosmere currently stands. What do you all think?

follow-up question, Which shard or potential combination of shards is best poised to stop Retribution?

follow-up to that follow-up, do you think Retribution would ever also take up the shard of Cultivation, becoming the first trishardic being?

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

Yeah I agree Harmony wouldn't stand a chance against Retribution. It does seem we're headed in this direction though and I think Sazed can beat Retribution, just not as Harmony. We know Harmony is heading down the path to becoming Discord. The Terris prophecies also tell us "his name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it". To me this implies Harmony is going to transform into Discord yet Scadrial will love him for it as it gives him the power he needs to fight and defend them against Retribution

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

27 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Yeah I agree Harmony wouldn't stand a chance against Retribution. It does seem we're headed in this direction though and I think Sazed can beat Retribution, just not as Harmony. We know Harmony is heading down the path to becoming Discord. The Terris prophecies also tell us "his name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it". To me this implies Harmony is going to transform into Discord yet Scadrial will love him for it as it gives him the power he needs to fight and defend them against Retribution

oh wow, i had no idea. so do you think he will need to take up another shard to become discord, or will this be more of a philosophical transformation?

 

[Cosmer]

29 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

The Terris prophecies also tell us "his name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it". To me this implies Harmony is going to transform into Discord yet Scadrial will love him for it as it gives him the power he needs to fight and defend them against Retribution

I still kinda think this will refer to Kelsier taking up the shards and becoming Discord to save Scadrial…to me it makes more sense with the “love him for it” piece. The Survivor coming to save the planet again?? They’d certainly love that. He has more Ruin in him and could return some Power of Preservation to the people making them stronger in Allomancy. Discord. 
 

To be fair…Probably some holes in this theory that I haven’t seen yet. 

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

3 minutes ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

oh wow, i had no idea. so do you think he will need to take up another shard to become discord, or will this be more of a philosophical transformation?

 

Philosophical transformation. Throughout Era 2 he's already beginning the descent and we can see a sort of shadowy double when he appears which Kelsier confirms is a representation of Discord. Kell also states that Ruin was always more powerful than Preservation so presumably in Discord the Intent will skew towards Ruin. Take that last part with a grain of salt though since Kelsier has been wrong about many things before.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

Hey, thank you for fixing that, I mistakenly thought that spoilers would be allowed in this forum. I will definitely keep that in mind for next post.

Spoilers are allowed in this forum, however Spoilers in thread titles are visable outside of the Spoiler Forum, which is why Spoiler Policy forbids spoilers from thread titles everywhere (please note how thread titles appear on the main page when recently posted). 

Please see the Sharder FAQ for this and other useful forum info. 

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Harmony, as it stands, would get battered by Retribution

4 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

I agree Harmony wouldn't stand a chance against Retribution

I disagree. A lot. Harmony is the product of Preservation's 2000+ yr plan for the Hero of Ages and inheritor of the (arguably) best Future Sight planning amongst all (currently known) Shards (At least Cultivation's equal - it is debatable as to which has better access to and understanding of Fortune). 

Taravangian may get more done early, but his double-constraint is not significantly better than Harmony's, and Sazed would out-manuever him in the long run (as Harmony or Discord). Rayse was right to fear Harmony.

 

Edited April 9, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

9 minutes ago, Cosmer said:

I still kinda think this will refer to Kelsier taking up the shards and becoming Discord to save Scadrial…to me it makes more sense with the “love him for it” piece. The Survivor coming to save the planet again?? They’d certainly love that. He has more Ruin in him and could return some Power of Preservation to the people making them stronger in Allomancy. Discord. 
 

To be fair…Probably some holes in this theory that I haven’t seen yet. 

I like that idea since I'm a Kelsier fanboy but it doesn't seem super likely imo. We've gotten confirmation in Era 2 and from WoBs that Sazed/Harmony is already starting to become Discord with no Kelsier needed. Plus with Kelsier's personality I don't think he'd be the type to take up a Shard. He seems like someone who plans from the background and doesn't want the attention or restrictions becoming a Shard would place on him similar to Hoid. 

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Spoilers are alowed in this forum, however Spoilers in thread titles are visable outside of the Spoiler Forum, which is why Spoiler Policy forbids spoilers from thread titles everywhere (please note how thread titles appear on the main page when recently posted). 

Please see the Sharder FAQ for this and other useful forum info. 

I disagree. A lot. Harmony is the product of Preservation's 2000+ yr plan for the Hero of Ages and inheritor of the (arguably) best Future Sight planning amongst all (currently known) Shards (At least Cultivation's equal - it is debatable as to which has better access to and understanding of Fortune). 

Taravangian may get more done early, but his double-constraint is not significantly better than Harmony's, and Sazed would out-manuever him in the long run. Rayse was right to fear Harmony.

 

WaT tells us that Retribution is the perfect fit while Harmony's powers were never meant to be combined. There's a reason every Shard immediately turned on Retribution when he ascended while they all ignored Harmony. Plus we already saw Harmony crippled when going up against Autonomy, and that wasn't even a war yet, he got bested by what's essentially the scouting team; a bunch of regular humans and a single avatar. It seems like Preservation's plan was to best Ruin and not anything beyond that.

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

i completely agree, for those exact reasons. is there a place i could read more about harmony becoming discord? even theoretical conjecture would interst me.

 

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

13 minutes ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

i completely agree, for those exact reasons. is there a place i could read more about harmony becoming discord? even theoretical conjecture would interst me.

 

You can look up the article about Harmony on the Coppermind Wiki. It has a section called Discord with all the information we have right now complete with references.

Edited April 9, 2025 by SpartanBrigade

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

20 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I disagree. A lot. Harmony is the product of Preservation's 2000+ yr plan for the Hero of Ages and inheritor of the (arguably) best Future Sight planning amongst all (currently known) Shards (At least Cultivation's equal - it is debatable as to which has better access to and understanding of Fortune). 

Taravangian may get more done early, but his double-constraint is not significantly better than Harmony's, and Sazed would out-manuever him in the long run (as Harmony or Discord). Rayse was right to fear Harmony.

 

hmm, that is an interesting take. i hadn't considered that. so in the universe, i might be able to see this viewpoint, because retribution will be delayed for fear of the other shards taking action against him. although in a vacuum, i think retribution would slaughter him. i love sazed, don't get me wrong, but what good is the long game or maneuverability when retribution can shatter you while you decide.

[Treamayne]

40 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

WaT tells us that Retribution is the perfect fit while Harmony's powers were never meant to be combined.

The books disagree with you. 

HoA Ch 82:

Spoiler

 Sazed opened eyes as large as the world itself, drawing in power that latticed all of creation.

The Hero will have the power to save the world. But he will also have the power to destroy it.

We never understood. He wouldn’t simply bear the power of Preservation. He needed the power of Ruin as well.

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

<snip>

Rashek and Vin only touched small pieces of it at the Well of Ascension, he realized. I have something more. Something endless.

Ruin and Preservation were dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact, they belonged together. How had they been split? Someday, perhaps, he would discover the answer to that question.

WaT Ch 145

Spoiler

No. He couldn’t be dead. No!

Well, he would bring Retribution upon Dalinar for this. He considered destroying Gavinor out of spite, but … no. He revolted at such an act. Gavinor had acted with honor, keeping his promises—and Taravangian had been very careful, during their twenty years of preparation, about what he said.

Part of the power within him was … concerned. Had he acted with honor toward Gavinor?

<snip>

He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn’t he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor … Honor wanted desperately to follow it—and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him.

Harmony may be 3 centuries into the growing dissonance of conflicting Intents - but Retribution only thinks he is less fettered, but on day-one of combining Shards he is already experiencing Intent Conflict causing him to change his plans or making him unable to act as the Vessel would want. 

24 minutes ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

i completely agree, for those exact reasons. is there a place i could read more about harmony becoming discord? even theoretical conjecture would interst me.

Harmony on Coppermind - Discord WoBs, mostly based on this line from TFE Ch 8 Epigraph:

Quote

“He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it.”

You can also search the forums for threads about the theories, such as:

• WoK Harmony Discord Ref
• Harmony vs Discord
• Discord more Ruin

Hope that helps

Edit: 

9 minutes ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

i love sazed, don't get me wrong, but what good is the long game or maneuverability when retribution can shatter you while you decide.

But Retribution cannot just Splinter Harmony. Just as he did not just Splinter the other Shards - he had to manuever them into fighting each other such that one or more broke an Oath making them vulnerable - only then could he Splinter the Shard.

WoB:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

 

Quote

Questioner

Odium has, as I understand it, something like the meaning of God's divine wrath. How is wrath on its own able to cause such terrible destruction? I  mean, he primarily attacked di-Shardic worlds like Sel and Roshar, so could he just have sowed discord between Shards there to an extent of them actually fighting against each other and then just *inaudible*.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good theory, that he got them to fight against each other. I won't tell you whether it happened or not, but it is a very valid theory. It's fully within his capacity; that's the sort of thing that he does.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

 

Edited April 9, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

21 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

The books disagree with you. 

HoA Ch 82:

  Hide contents

 Sazed opened eyes as large as the world itself, drawing in power that latticed all of creation.

The Hero will have the power to save the world. But he will also have the power to destroy it.

We never understood. He wouldn’t simply bear the power of Preservation. He needed the power of Ruin as well.

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

<snip>

Rashek and Vin only touched small pieces of it at the Well of Ascension, he realized. I have something more. Something endless.

Ruin and Preservation were dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact, they belonged together. How had they been split? Someday, perhaps, he would discover the answer to that question.

WaT Ch 145

  Hide contents

No. He couldn’t be dead. No!

Well, he would bring Retribution upon Dalinar for this. He considered destroying Gavinor out of spite, but … no. He revolted at such an act. Gavinor had acted with honor, keeping his promises—and Taravangian had been very careful, during their twenty years of preparation, about what he said.

Part of the power within him was … concerned. Had he acted with honor toward Gavinor?

<snip>

He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn’t he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor … Honor wanted desperately to follow it—and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him.

Harmony may be 3 centuries into the growing dissonance of conflicting Intents - but Retribution only thinks he is less fettered, but on day one of combining Shards he is already experiencing Intent Conflict causing him to change his plans or making him unable to act as the Vessel woudl want. 

Harmony on Coppermind - Discord WoBs, mostly based on this line from TFE Ch 8 Epigraph:

You can also search the forums for threads about the theories, such as:

• WoK Harmony Discord Ref
• Harmony vs Discord
• Discord more Ruin

Hope that helps

That's sort of cherry picking though, especially with the WaT quote. This is the full excerpt 
"Part of the power within him was … concerned. Had he acted with honor toward Gavinor? I did everything I promised him, Taravangian thought. I brought him to get revenge, to claim his kingdom. I never said I wouldn’t interfere. All I did was perfectly in line with my oaths to Gavinor. It was true. The power acknowledged it. That should be that. It calmed while Taravangian pondered. He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn’t he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor … Honor wanted desperately to follow it—and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him. As he determined to do so, Honor swelled inside him, and more fully bonded into Retribution."

There's also this from WaT Chapter 145
"Taravangian, Retribution, reveled in his new strength. He was more powerful than anything. Only one other came close, but those powers were misaligned, while Honor and Odium wanted nearly the same things. They would work together."

Additionally in the quote you sent from The Hero Of Ages further proves the point.

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together they created."

The reason he's been able to manage them so far is because he was relatively new and hadn't held the powers for too long so they hadn't warped him yet. In Era 2 he is warping though and he can't act, he can't see, and he's bested by the scouting team. Scadrial would have been destroyed or captured by Autonomy if not for Wax. As of now Retribution is just objectively the more powerful Shard.

Edited April 9, 2025 by SpartanBrigade

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

1 hour ago, SpartanBrigade said:

I like that idea since I'm a Kelsier fanboy but it doesn't seem super likely imo. We've gotten confirmation in Era 2 and from WoBs that Sazed/Harmony is already starting to become Discord with no Kelsier needed. Plus with Kelsier's personality I don't think he'd be the type to take up a Shard. He seems like someone who plans from the background and doesn't want the attention or restrictions becoming a Shard would place on him similar to Hoid. 

WaT tells us that Retribution is the perfect fit while Harmony's powers were never meant to be combined. There's a reason every Shard immediately turned on Retribution when he ascended while they all ignored Harmony. Plus we already saw Harmony crippled when going up against Autonomy, and that wasn't even a war yet, he got bested by what's essentially the scouting team; a bunch of regular humans and a single avatar. It seems like Preservation's plan was to best Ruin and not anything beyond that.

that is an interesting ocncept i hadnt considered. so retribution is retribution and those pieces dont fit, so could you call that a stable dishard, whereas harmony is unstable meaning there are two forms those two shard could combine, one way as harmony and the other as discord?

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

That's sort of cherry picking though, especially with the WaT quote. This is the full excerpt 

Spoiler

"Part of the power within him was … concerned. Had he acted with honor toward Gavinor? I did everything I promised him, Taravangian thought. I brought him to get revenge, to claim his kingdom. I never said I wouldn’t interfere. All I did was perfectly in line with my oaths to Gavinor. It was true. The power acknowledged it. That should be that. It calmed while Taravangian pondered. He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn’t he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor … Honor wanted desperately to follow it—and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him. As he determined to do so, Honor swelled inside him, and more fully bonded into Retribution."

There's also this from WaT Chapter 145

Spoiler

"Taravangian, Retribution, reveled in his new strength. He was more powerful than anything. Only one other came close, but those powers were misaligned, while Honor and Odium wanted nearly the same things. They would work together."

 

You can call it that, but it was not my Intent - I was merely showing that Brandon did Foreshadow Conflicts of Intent in Retribution. There are more references, I just grabbed the first two from that chapter due to time constraints. But we can make a new thread to discuss this in depth after work when I have time, if you would like. 

6 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Additionally in the quote you sent from The Hero Of Ages further proves the point.

Spoiler

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together they created."

The reason he's been able to manage them so far is because he was relatively new and hadn't held the powers for too long so they hadn't warped him yet. In Era 2 he is warping though and he can't act, he can't see, and he's bested by the scouting team. Scadrial would have been destroyed or captured by Autonomy if not for Wax. As of now Retribution is just objectively the more powerful Shard.

So, you are doing the same thing? That's the first half of the quote I posted, which ignores the rest of Sazed's Comment at the end of the Chapter:

Spoiler

Ruin and Preservation were dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact, they belonged together. How had they been split? Someday, perhaps, he would discover the answer to that question.

All of which is a digression from the point I was actually trying to make:

• Sazed's primary mistake when taking up Ruin and Preservation was having the Intent to specifically keep them separate, but he was still able to use them together fairly easily, at first (HoA timeframe)
• Three centuries later - Sazed is finding difficulty in Acting because even though he is called Harmony, there is no Intent to combine the two powers he holds
  • Even though they are "mingled" now though exposure in a way that no longer makes them easy to separate
• Retribution is in his infancy as a diShardic being and may be having little problem with Intent Conflict so far - but
  • That does not mean he will continue to have no problems, as the Vessel is clearly shown to have to jump though logical "hoops" to keep both halves "happy"
• Therefore: We cannot say that Retribution will or will not continue to have unfettered acccess to both Shards. It is speculation, not fact, that Retribution will not encounter the same, or similar, problems that Harmony experiences. 

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

40 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

The books disagree with you. 

HoA Ch 82:

  Hide contents

 Sazed opened eyes as large as the world itself, drawing in power that latticed all of creation.

The Hero will have the power to save the world. But he will also have the power to destroy it.

We never understood. He wouldn’t simply bear the power of Preservation. He needed the power of Ruin as well.

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

<snip>

Rashek and Vin only touched small pieces of it at the Well of Ascension, he realized. I have something more. Something endless.

Ruin and Preservation were dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact, they belonged together. How had they been split? Someday, perhaps, he would discover the answer to that question.

WaT Ch 145

  Hide contents

No. He couldn’t be dead. No!

Well, he would bring Retribution upon Dalinar for this. He considered destroying Gavinor out of spite, but … no. He revolted at such an act. Gavinor had acted with honor, keeping his promises—and Taravangian had been very careful, during their twenty years of preparation, about what he said.

Part of the power within him was … concerned. Had he acted with honor toward Gavinor?

<snip>

He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn’t he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor … Honor wanted desperately to follow it—and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him.

Harmony may be 3 centuries into the growing dissonance of conflicting Intents - but Retribution only thinks he is less fettered, but on day-one of combining Shards he is already experiencing Intent Conflict causing him to change his plans or making him unable to act as the Vessel would want. 

Harmony on Coppermind - Discord WoBs, mostly based on this line from TFE Ch 8 Epigraph:

You can also search the forums for threads about the theories, such as:

• WoK Harmony Discord Ref
• Harmony vs Discord
• Discord more Ruin

Hope that helps

Edit: 

But Retribution cannot just Splinter Harmony. Just as he did not just Splinter the other Shards - he had to manuever them into fighting each other such that one or more broke an Oath making them vulnerable - only then could he Splinter the Shard.

WoB:

  Hide contents

so helpful! thank you!

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

You can call it that, but it was not my Intent - I was merely showing that Brandon did Foreshadow Conflicts of Intent in Retribution. There are more references, I just grabbed the first two from that chapter due to time constraints. But we can make a new thread to discuss this in depth after work when I have time, if you would like. 

So, you are doing the same thing? That's the first half of the quote I posted, which ignores the rest of Sazed's Comment at the end of the Chapter:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ruin and Preservation were dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact, they belonged together. How had they been split? Someday, perhaps, he would discover the answer to that question.

All of which is a digression from the point I was actually trying to make:

• Sazed's primary mistake when taking up Ruin and Preservation was having the Intent to specifically keep them separate, but he was still able to use them together fairly easily, at first (HoA timeframe)
• Three centuries later - Sazed is finding difficulty in Acting because even though he is called Harmony, there is no Intent to combine the two powers he holds
  • Even though they are "mingled" now though exposure in a way that no longer makes them easy to separate
• Retribution is in his infancy as a diShardic being and may be having little problem with Intent Conflict so far - but
  • That does not mean he will continue to have no problems, as the Vessel is clearly shown to have to jump though logical "hoops" to keep both halves "happy"
• Therefore: We cannot say that Retribution will or will not continue to have unfettered acccess to both Shards. It is speculation, not fact, that Retribution will not encounter the same, or similar, problems that Harmony experiences. 

WOW! i never thought of it like that, he cant be harmony and keep them separated, thus discord must be born of that intent. so, and this is speculative, if he had gone in to being a di-shard with the intention to combine them fully, would he have been a more successful and/or permanent harmony?

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

You can call it that, but it was not my Intent - I was merely showing that Brandon did Foreshadow Conflicts of Intent in Retribution. There are more references, I just grabbed the first two from that chapter due to time constraints. But we can make a new thread to discuss this in depth after work when I have time, if you would like. 

So, you are doing the same thing? That's the first half of the quote I posted, which ignores the rest of Sazed's Comment at the end of the Chapter:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ruin and Preservation were dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact, they belonged together. How had they been split? Someday, perhaps, he would discover the answer to that question.

All of which is a digression from the point I was actually trying to make:

• Sazed's primary mistake when taking up Ruin and Preservation was having the Intent to specifically keep them separate, but he was still able to use them together fairly easily, at first (HoA timeframe)
• Three centuries later - Sazed is finding difficulty in Acting because even though he is called Harmony, there is no Intent to combine the two powers he holds
  • Even though they are "mingled" now though exposure in a way that no longer makes them easy to separate
• Retribution is in his infancy as a diShardic being and may be having little problem with Intent Conflict so far - but
  • That does not mean he will continue to have no problems, as the Vessel is clearly shown to have to jump though logical "hoops" to keep both halves "happy"
• Therefore: We cannot say that Retribution will or will not continue to have unfettered acccess to both Shards. It is speculation, not fact, that Retribution will not encounter the same, or similar, problems that Harmony experiences. 

Sure I'd be down for an in depth thread. I do see your point now too. For the second half of the HoA excerpt though 

 "And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together they created."

The reason he was able to use them together and create and master both Shards here seems to be because he 'was of one mind on how to use them'. He was still fresh to the power, the same reason Viservation was able to kill Ati. By the time Era 2 rolls around the Shards' Intent has warped him and he's of two minds on how to use them. That was my take on it anyway.

22 minutes ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

 

WOW! i never thought of it like that, he cant be harmony and keep them separated, thus discord must be born of that intent. so, and this is speculative, if he had gone in to being a di-shard with the intention to combine them fully, would he have been a more successful and/or permanent harmony?

It seems like it might be

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

28 minutes ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

that is an interesting ocncept i hadnt considered. so retribution is retribution and those pieces dont fit, so could you call that a stable dishard, whereas harmony is unstable meaning there are two forms those two shard could combine, one way as harmony and the other as discord?

Yeah that's the main idea. Retribution is more stable since the Intents of Odium and Honor align while Preservation and Ruin are opposites.

"Taravangian, Retribution, reveled in his new strength. He was more powerful than anything. Only one other came close, but those powers were misaligned, while Honor and Odium wanted nearly the same things."
- WaT Chapter 145

You're spot on about there being two ways Harmony could combine, either as Harmony or Discord. So far Sazed has been able to make sure the Shards are balanced and work together. Once enough time passes they'll warp him to much to control and they will no longer work in harmony. Instead Ruin will most likely become more powerful (according to Kelsier) meaning the balance is broken and the Shards no longer work together.

 

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

Wow, this is a fascinating topic, I am glad so many people know enough and care enough to respond. If this becomes an in-depth thread later on, please loop me in. that being said, I am well aware that we can only speculate on the varying power of different shards, but it is an interesting concept. I read something in another thread here or on reddit that I agree with..."The Cosmere was not set up to support power scaling." I take this as "if you are going to compare, do so in a speculative way only, because nothing is set in stone until it happens."

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

2 hours ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

Wow, this is a fascinating topic, I am glad so many people know enough and care enough to respond. If this becomes an in-depth thread later on, please loop me in. that being said, I am well aware that we can only speculate on the varying power of different shards, but it is an interesting concept. I read something in another thread here or on reddit that I agree with..."The Cosmere was not set up to support power scaling." I take this as "if you are going to compare, do so in a speculative way only, because nothing is set in stone until it happens."

Yeah agreed, I'm just a fan of speculation lol. Assuming Treamayne and I make a detailed thread we'll be sure to include you. Also I just saw this whole time we were focussed on Harmony/Discord vs Retribution when you asked about a lot of other stuff too. For which Shards are best poised to stop Retribution there are a few options. I think our MvPs are going to be Harmony, Valor, and Cultivation just because they were the main three who were willing to move against Odium when it was just Rayse. I think now that he's Retribution that willingness to fight will only multiply. As for Shard combinations I'm using hypotheticals since these would never work in story but if I had to put together a Shard to fight Retribution I'd choose Conquest (Dominion + Ambition) although that might prove a bigger threat than Retribution.

[Treamayne]

In reverse order:

On 4/8/2025 at 6:17 PM, Obeythelaw7 said:

follow-up to that follow-up, do you think Retribution would ever also take up the shard of Cultivation, becoming the first trishardic being?

I do not think tarvangian could be a Vessel for Cultivation - not jusy because he doesn;t really understand that intent, but because he deeply resents how Kor manipulated him (despite it leading him to become Odium).

On 4/8/2025 at 6:17 PM, Obeythelaw7 said:

follow-up question, Which shard or potential combination of shards is best poised to stop Retribution?

2 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

For which Shards are best poised to stop Retribution there are a few options. I think our MvPs are going to be Harmony, Valor, and Cultivation just because they were the main three who were willing to move against Odium when it was just Rayse.

Autonomy. They've been planning to betray each other for a while now, and we know they have similar - mutually exclusive - goals. Both want to be the "only Shard"

• Odium - by Splintering all rivals to be the "last Shard standing"
• Autonomy - by using Avatars to "out-religion" the other Shards so they are fogotten and everybody only worships one or more versions of Autonomy

Spoiler

Double

Rayse (Odium) was very methodical with the order in which he went after other Shards. Hypothetically if he'd visited the Rosharan system all those years ago but managed to avoid being trapped and was able to continue his mission right away, which of the known Shards would've been next up on Rayse's hit list?

Brandon Sanderson

He expected Ruin to implode. So he might have gone for Autonomy, double crossing them.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

In reverse order:

I do not think tarvangian could be a Vessel for Cultivation - not jusy because he doesn;t really understand that intent, but because he deeply resents how Kor manipulated him (despite it leading him to become Odium).

Autonomy. They've been planning to betray each other for a while now, and we know they have similar - mutually exclusive - goals. Both want to be the "only Shard"

• Odium - by Splintering all rivals to be the "last Shard standing"
• Autonomy - by using Avatars to "out-religion" the other Shards so they are fogotten and everybody only worships one or more versions of Autonomy

  Hide contents

Double

Rayse (Odium) was very methodical with the order in which he went after other Shards. Hypothetically if he'd visited the Rosharan system all those years ago but managed to avoid being trapped and was able to continue his mission right away, which of the known Shards would've been next up on Rayse's hit list?

Brandon Sanderson

He expected Ruin to implode. So he might have gone for Autonomy, double crossing them.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

I got the idea that the two of them plan on kinda ignoring each other until they’re the last two at which point they’d attack one another, especially since Autonomy ignored the formation of Retribution to go attack Scadrial. It seems like for the time being they’re not interested in fighting, Retribution because he just wants to hide right now and Autonomy just doesn’t seem to care and is focused on Harmony instead. I’m not 100% sure though what are your thoughts?