Was Roshar the reason for the Shattering? [Discuss]

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Let me present the likely facts:
Roshar is artificial and looks like an experiment of Adonalsium. In particular he (for short I will use he) created a humanoid race even reproductively compatible with humans.

That must have been intentional. But why did he create another humanoid species? One may assume that he wanted to add another species to his domain. But what if it was not an addition but a replacement in the works?

Do you think it likely that the conspiracy against Adonalsium was started by people who did not want to be obsoleted and replaced?

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

Aren't dragons already another species?

Also, I doubt the 17 who did the shattering all came to it with the same reasons for doing so. Like, Rayse probably just wanted the personal position of usurping the highest power he could find, considering how he has behaved. The others probably wanted other things.

Bavadin seems like she is committed to just wanting there to never again be a mono-god, assuming the way trellium interacts with harmonium and the way she seems to have conspired to wreck Scandrial mean what I think they mean. I actually find this immensely understandable, I think the efforts to create a universal faith in human history have all been disasters in my view.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

41 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

Aren't dragons already another species?

Yes. They obviously are. And that is kind of the point. They are too dissimilar to mankind to replace it. A Singer? Not so clear.

42 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

Also, I doubt the 17 who did the shattering all came to it with the same reasons for doing so. Like, Rayse probably just wanted the personal position of usurping the highest power he could find, considering how he has behaved. The others probably wanted other things.

Yes, but you need plausibility for a conspiracy. Lets say somebody suggested preparations for a coup in the USA in 1990. Laughable. Today? Still unlikely. Totally laughable?
Hence if you really were to organize such an undertaking, today it would be easier, whatever be your personal agenda.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

They are too dissimilar to mankind to replace it. A Singer? Not so clear.

Replace it in doing what?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

17 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

Replace it in doing what?

Everything. Respectively for whatever Adonalsum wanted mankind in the Cosmere. Population replacement.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

50 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Respectively for whatever Adonalsum wanted mankind in the Cosmere. Population replacement.

Where it that Adonalsum had a purpose in making mankind, mankind would be the most justified in killing Adonalsum for such an Adonalsum would be evil.

To treat a person as a mere means is to negate their existence as a living being, it reduces them to the same level as a hammer or a knife. Thus, the murder of Adonalsum would not be for the making of the Singers in this hypothetical, but might very well be for the justice of reducing Adonalsum to the status that Adonalsum ascribed to its creation, a lifeless thing.

Also, if humans and singers can interbreed, there is no more a replacement there than the passing of generations. It's the logic of racism and fascism to see replacement in the succession of generations and the intermingling of peoples.

[Quantus he/him]

52 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

Where it that Adonalsum had a purpose in making mankind, mankind would be the most justified in killing Adonalsum for such an Adonalsum would be evil.

To treat a person as a mere means is to negate their existence as a living being, it reduces them to the same level as a hammer or a knife. Thus, the murder of Adonalsum would not be for the making of the Singers in this hypothetical, but might very well be for the justice of reducing Adonalsum to the status that Adonalsum ascribed to its creation, a lifeless thing.

Also, if humans and singers can interbreed, there is no more a replacement there than the passing of generations. It's the logic of racism and fascism to see replacement in the succession of generations and the intermingling of peoples.

Agreed.  Not to mention that if Fear of the Singers had been the 16's primary motivation, then the first thing the Shards would have done after taking BigA's power would have been to descend on Roshar and blast all the singers into oblivion.  They wouldnt have been left to whichever Shards wandered by.  

Edited April 1, 2025 by Quantus

[+Oltux72 he/him]

18 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Where it that Adonalsum had a purpose in making mankind, mankind would be the most justified in killing Adonalsum for such an Adonalsum would be evil.

What makes you think that Adonalsium was benevolent? Isn't that an assumption that is just drawn from the obvious issues that arise from the Shattering? What would allow the conclusion that the Shattering was unjustified? This looks suspiciously like wishful thinking to me.

18 hours ago, Quantus said:

Agreed.  Not to mention that if Fear of the Singers had been the 16's primary motivation, then the first thing the Shards would have done after taking BigA's power would have been to descend on Roshar and blast all the singers into oblivion.  They wouldnt have been left to whichever Shards wandered by.  

Not necessarily. If you destroy a competitor you usually look at the material left behind very closely because

1. You may want to copy what they had
2. The creator of the competitor may have had a very good reason to create the competitor

 

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

This looks suspiciously like wishful thinking to me.

My point is that there's no reason to assume the singular motivation of thinking about racial replacement was the motivation for the shattering because even in a world where Adonalsium was doing such a scheme, there would be plenty of reason to kill Adonalsium without caring about the, again, racist and fascist thinking of replacement. The idea that humanity would be lost because it might mix with another type of person is a kind of xenophobia that our world has clear analogues to in the form of people who speak of conspiracies like "the great replacement".

If it turns out Hoid and company were driven by that kind of a motive, it would paint them all as ugly people in a rather bland way.