Does the order in which multiple Shards are taken up and merged affect the outcome significantly?

[Ripheus23]

So far, we've seen:

1. The "mathematically degenerate" example of simultaneous di-Shardism in the Dor (degenerate because no one took up the Dor (what's its Intent? Love and Leadership combine as what???)).
2. The metastable and deliberate di-Shardism of Sazed Ascending to Harmony.
3. The staggered di-Shardism of Taravangian taking up Odium first, Honor later.

Do we have reason to expect that the sequence of pickings-up affects the outcome substantially, then? Or would order be irrelevant? If order is relevant, that suggests that the infinitude of Adonalsium was more orderly than e.g. amorphous infinity, maybe. If order doesn't matter, though... I mean, I guess we've no evidence in any major direction about this yet, but I do wonder if we'll see the hints about combining Splinters into new Shards play out as e.g. a new Shard being made from pieces of Ambition and Virtuosity. Maybe the Grand Apparatus will turn out to be a "Shard factory" that can take Splinters and make new Shards out of them, and it will matter what order the pieces are fed into the factory's mechanics.

[Ashbringer he/him]

I don’t think it affects the newly formed Shard directly. Or rather, the differences between Harmony and Retribution are a result of different things.

Taravangian doesn’t seem to have a very strong Connection to Honor. No human save Dalinar really seemed to, sure, but Taravangian has a much stronger Connection to Odium. Also, Honor’s proto-consiousness allows that as an avenue of unbalance, similar to (but different from) Ruin’s power unbalancing Harmony.

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

So far, we've seen:

1. The "mathematically degenerate" example of simultaneous di-Shardism in the Dor (degenerate because no one took up the Dor (what's its Intent? Love and Leadership combine as what???)).
2. The metastable and deliberate di-Shardism of Sazed Ascending to Harmony.
3. The staggered di-Shardism of Taravangian taking up Odium first, Honor later.

Primary WoB on your question:

Spoiler

Questioner

My question is about Ruin and Preservation creating life. Is that an example of two individuals having a super team up? Or is there some co-influence, cross-influence that let them do something that would be outside of themselves?

Brandon Sanderson

Rephrase that for me. Talk around a little bit. Let me see if I'm gonna get the right answer, okay?

Questioner

Ruin ruins, and Preservation preserves. If they're creating life, well, that takes a little of everything, right? Is that an influence, like Ruin being in proximity to Preservation and vice versa? Would their co-mingling happen... and how would that influence other dual or triple Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

I get what you're saying. Each of the Shards has certain strengths and weaknesses, and they're capable of certain things and not other things. Some of them can do what was done by Ruin and Preservation on their own. Most cannot. Most combinations of two could; some would need three. So, it really kind of depends on the situation and the Shard. Each pairing and grouping of Shards will have different sort of augmentations to what they can accomplish, and things like this, because the Shards aren't all-powerful, they're just part of something that once was, if that makes sense. (That's not how math works in infinity, but it is how infinity works in the cosmere.)

FanX 2024 (Sept. 26, 2024)

Only one of those is an actual Merger of the Shards, though. Taravangian took up two shards and changed Intent from Odium to Retribution (or is trying to nudge the new combined intent toward Retribution). However:

• What is known on Sel as "the Dor" is not one combined Shardic power with a single intent. In fact the powers themselves are not "coherent" because they have been splintered. The pressure and plasma-like danger is partially due to the violent reactions of opposed shardic powers touching each other in the Cognitive Realm.
• Sazed did not only not-merge Ruin and Preservation; he specifically picked them up with the intent of keeping them separate. The powers have "mingled" over the centuries, but are still rather far from combining into a merged intent - that is likely the biggest part of Sazed's problem as Harmony
  • In fact, it may be possible that seeing what happened with Retribution would help him to discover how to successfully merge the powers into one combined intent. If so, that may be how/why Harmony becomes Discord (or some different combined Intent - Discord is implied but not actually confirmed, still just a fan theory).

WoBs and References:

Spoiler

Quote

Blaze1616

The Dor: Is it gaseous Investiture or is it something else completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh that's a great question. People have not been asking enough about the Dor.

Blaze1616

And if it is gaseous—or not gaseous—is it plasma?

Brandon Sanderson

*Long pause*

You got it. *said definitively*

It's super sup-- not plasm-- yeah, it's super-dense to the point that's it's liquefied and dense-- does that make sense? So it's plasma, basically. It's its own weird thing, so yeah. What you can write is that it's its own weird thing that's kind of plasma-like.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

Quote

<edited for length and relevance>

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way.

The only magic that is location-dependent--  The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep.

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Quote

Questioner

Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Were Ruin and Preservation two shards or one?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They were two shards. Harmony is considered a shard, although it’s really two, in the same way that a king of two countries would still be considered a king.

Alloy of Law Milton Keynes signing (Nov. 21, 2011)

HoA Ch 82

Quote

The Hero will have the power to save the world. But he will also have the power to destroy it.

We never understood. He wouldn’t simply bear the power of Preservation. He needed the power of Ruin as well.

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

 

Hope that helps

[Ripheus23]

19 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Harmony is considered a shard, although it’s really two, in the same way that a king of two countries would still be considered a king.

But why then wouldn't Sazed/Harmony produce two godmetals? Is Sanderson's theory inconsistent, here, or why would godmetals be more fused than the Shards that produce them? Or why is Warlight unified over Stormlight and Voidlight?

Edited March 22, 2025 by Ripheus23

[Treamayne]

17 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Or why is Sorrowlight (or whatever we'd call it) unified over Stormlight and Voidlight?

It's Warlight - as seen in RoW and WaT:

Spoiler

RoW Ch 76:

Quote

The two of them looked at each other, then fell silent. Carefully, they removed their hands to reveal a diamond glowing a vibrant black-blue. An impossible color.

Raboniel trembled as she picked the gemstone out of its place, then held it up, humming a reverential rhythm. “They did not annihilate one another, as I assumed. Indeed, as part of me hoped. You were right, Navani. Remarkably, I have been proven wrong.” She turned the gemstone in her fingers. “I can name this rhythm: the Rhythm of War. Odium and Honor mixed together. I had not known it before today, but I recognize its name; I know this as surely as I know my own. Each rhythm carries with it an understanding of its meaning.”

WaT Ch 146:

Quote

 

Venli ran past him to the building where, using Retribution’s gifted Light, she’d secretly made a passage downward, and had found the underground pool to be empty.

Now, with her mother and Bila, she reached the pool and found the strange too-thick liquid returning. Welling up from the ground. The color was different, a brilliant black-blue. A new tone accompanied it, pulsing to a new rhythm. The … Rhythm of War? She knew its name instinctively.

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

But why then wouldn't Sazed/Harmony produce two godmetals?

Because they are mingled, and Harmony tries to use them in concert - but that's part of why Harmonium is so reactive - the mingled intents oppose each other.

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said ettmetal is chemically reactive, not nuclear.

The longer answer makes it sound like Harmonium isn't a Lerasium/Atium alloy, but a whole new metal. He described it as "super-cesium," and that its volatility was based on electrons, not on protons or neutrons.

"It is not unstable, it is reactive. So it's like a "super-cesium". It reacts so violently..."

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Quote

Ironeyes

So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.

Ironeyes

So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Ironeyes

So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion then it's a different metal, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, and...

Ironeyes

So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.

Brandon Sanderson

Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah. But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the Cosmere. And to Scadrial.

Ironeyes

So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a Cosmere equivalent. To - I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the Cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right? Matter, energy, Investiture. You have a third axis that, you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more - that are controlled by me, right, that are built on this idea. So once you add *inaudible*, matter now can exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

 

Hope that helps

Edited March 22, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Ripheus23]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

It's Warlight - as seen in RoW and WaT:

  Reveal hidden contents

RoW Ch 76:

WaT Ch 146:

 

 

Because they are mingled, and Harmony tries to use them in concert - but that's part of why Harmonium is so reactive - the mingled intents oppose each other.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hope that helps

So does all that mean that when two Shards combine, it's not like saying 1 + 1 = 2, but like how 1 + i doesn't get fully "fused" but has to remain "stretched out over" the moment of addition? I wonder then if having the Shards be sixteenfold means that the cosmere is operating with a sixteen-valued logic at this time, and part of the problem with Adonalsium was that it was imposing a one-valued (so not even a two-valued) logic on things? Or maybe sedenions are relevant, too, then, on the Cognitive level (I think there are 16 special units among the sedenions, besides whatever counterpart of the unit sphere of the quaternions there is then; so like adding 1 + e for some sedenion unit e doesn't fully "resolve" but is also stuck "stretched out," I think).

[Treamayne]

31 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

So does all that mean that when two Shards combine, it's not like saying 1 + 1 = 2, but like how 1 + i doesn't get fully "fused" but has to remain "stretched out over" the moment of addition? I wonder then if having the Shards be sixteenfold means that the cosmere is operating with a sixteen-valued logic at this time, and part of the problem with Adonalsium was that it was imposing a one-valued (so not even a two-valued) logic on things? Or maybe sedenions are relevant, too, then, on the Cognitive level (I think there are 16 special units among the sedenions, besides whatever counterpart of the unit sphere of the quaternions there is then; so like adding 1 + e for some sedenion unit e doesn't fully "resolve" but is also stuck "stretched out," I think).

@Chaos may be able to lend his expertise. Keep in mind that Investiture (and Adonalsium) are primarily of the Spiritual Realm, which has neither time nor place - so any "dimensional" math model would be difficult to apply to these beings unless that model is taking the timeless/spacelss nature of SR into account. 

35 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

So does all that mean that when two Shards combine, it's not like saying 1 + 1 = 2,

I think we don't have enough information to extrapolate the permutations of Shardic interactions. All we can say, so far, is that Shardic Interactions in the Spiritual realm are more like colour theory than number theory. For example (similia mine)

• Sazed picked up black and white is really trying to make both do work, and sometimes work together - but without every becoming grey
• Taravangian picked up blue and gold and gleefully tried smushing them together to make blue-black 
  • Which implies an inversion of additive and subractive color models, as Yellow/Gold+Blue Light Model should become a shade of white.
• Dor (color association unconfirmed - example is as example does) is like watery blue/white and oily red/orange in a lava lamp - pushing and shoving and moving around, but no Emulsifier vessel means no true intermixing is achieved. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

5 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

But why then wouldn't Sazed/Harmony produce two godmetals? Is Sanderson's theory inconsistent, here, or why would godmetals be more fused than the Shards that produce them? Or why is Warlight unified over Stormlight and Voidlight?

There’s also a point on, besides the original Atium we don’t know how god metals are produced. And for all we know Harmony is capable of producing atium/lerasium, but is trying to hide that.

49 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Dor (color association unconfirmed - example is as example does) is like watery blue/white and oily red/orange in a lava lamp - pushing and shoving and moving around, but no Emulsifier vessel means no true intermixing is achieved.

One of my bucket list WoBs to ask is would it be easier to restore Devotion + Dominion from the Dor, or some mixed shard (Leadership?).

[Treamayne]

43 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

And for all we know Harmony is capable of producing atium/lerasium

WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Could [Sazed] also bring back lerasium beads, if he wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

It would be within his power to do so, yes.

Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015)

We don't know if he is hiding it, or doesn't realize he could do it (intent matters) - but he would be capable of it. 

Re: Sel. We do have this WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Would it be possible for an inanimate object that was Invested to the point of sentience Ascend to Shardhood?

Brandon Sanderson

To become a Vessel of Adonalsium, or become a Shard through...? This is a tricky question because the power left alone will become sapient. And at that point, the distinction between being a Shard and a Vessel is fine but still extant. And I would say the power could not become a Vessel in the same way because it's defined as something different. But it is possible for the power to be left alone and to gain sapience on its own.

Questioner

The example we were thinking of was Sel. It was stated in Arcanum that the landscape itself was Invested to the point of... Could the planet of Sel be the Vessel of Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson

At this point, it's playing semantics, and I would say no. But there are people in-cosmere that would argue that the semantic distinction is irrelevant and that it is the same.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Edited March 22, 2025 by Treamayne
Sel/SPAG

[Ashbringer he/him]

On 3/22/2025 at 10:08 AM, Treamayne said:

WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Could [Sazed] also bring back lerasium beads, if he wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

It would be within his power to do so, yes.

Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015)

We don't know if he is hiding it, or doesn't realize he could do it (intent matters) - but he would be capable of it. 

Ah. Good to know.

There’s also the aspect of if making lerasium would increase the Ruin power imbalance, but that could be offset by atium… maybe. Depends how that works now, and how Intent works with god metals in general. (But that’s another topic.)

[Eahlendell]

On 3/22/2025 at 11:33 AM, Treamayne said:

It's Warlight - as seen in RoW and WaT:

  Reveal hidden contents

RoW Ch 76:

WaT Ch 146:

 

 

Because they are mingled, and Harmony tries to use them in concert - but that's part of why Harmonium is so reactive - the mingled intents oppose each other.

  Hide contents

 

Hope that helps

What is left over when it reacts. What is Brandon referring too. Something significant to the Cosmete and Scadrial. What is the waste product of ettmetal?

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Eahlendell said:

What is left over when it reacts. What is Brandon referring too. Something significant to the Cosmete and Scadrial. What is the waste product of ettmetal?

Unknown. however one reaction with trace residue was in The Lost Metal, if you have read that.

TLM Spoilers:

Spoiler

It is not confirmed that the residue found in Wax's experiment is the same that is referred to in this WoB. 

 

[Eahlendell]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Unknown. however one reaction with trace residue was in The Lost Metal, if you have read that.

TLM Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

It is not confirmed that the residue found in Wax's experiment is the same that is referred to in this WoB. 

 

I understood that was due to the additional godmetal used in that process. (New to Posting so unsure how to add spoiler fields).

 

I have been wondering that if Ettmetal is used up by the process of lifting an airship, that would be using the metal to access preservations magic system would it leave atium as a waste product? I feel like it will be one or the other. 

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Eahlendell said:

(New to Posting so unsure how to add spoiler fields).

Please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips, such as quotes, multi-quote and spoiler tags.

4 minutes ago, Eahlendell said:

I have been wondering that if Ettmetal is used up by the process of lifting an airship, that would be using the metal to access preservations magic system would it leave atium as a waste product?

We have no data on that yet. The WoB is only referencing the Reactivity and what is left behind after a Reaction. Ettmetal, as used in SoScad Airships have not been shown to use Reactivity as a process, so we cannot assume that anything is left behind. It's also possible that, like a Misting "burning" a metal, the entire metal is consumed in the conversion from Solid Matter to Investiture, with no residue at all. Presumably, Era 3 will add information to clear up some of the Fabrial tech of Scadrial. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 3/21/2025 at 8:05 PM, Ripheus23 said:

The "mathematically degenerate" example of simultaneous di-Shardism in the Dor (degenerate because no one took up the Dor (what's its Intent? Love and Leadership combine as what???))

Just throwing in my recent two cents on this - I think that a merger of Devotion and Dominion could actually be Unity. The parent religion of Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth has a single core tenet - unity, of mind and of people. I think this is what Odium meant when he said 'we killed you' after Dalinar claimed to be Unity in OB.