Ishar’s Plan with a Minor Flaw

[Ashbringer he/him]

So I had this thought recently.

Ishar’s plan around the new Oathpact is designed to protect the minds of the Heralds, stopping the torture from getting to them.

But what about their bodies? I mean, the torture is mostly muffled, but anti-Investiture exists now, and it’d be a real short Oathpact if El just goes around Braize stabbing comatose Herald bodies.

 

My guess is that wouldn’t work, either because actual Oathpact-following Heralds are much harder to kill via anti-Investiture than Jezrien was, or because getting anti-Investiture physically to Braize and the Heralds would be too complicated, or actually getting anti-Stormlight/anti-Investiture is now more complicated. But I’m curious what others think.

[RedBlue]

I had assumed the Heralds don’t manifest bodies on Braize with Oathpact 2.0.

[Ninth of the Night]

Heralds obtain new bodies when they Return, made entirely of Investiture. They have no true body, this was why Kaladin had to leave a corpse behind. His "mind" is in tact but he no longer has an original organic body. This is and has always been true for the other Heralds, as far as we know.

So the torture they experienced on Braize was mental trauma, regular torture as we think of it shouldn't have any effect on them. Their body is basically a mental manifestation, no separation between the two. If their mind is protected, then so is their "body".

I said body a lot in this post. Word has lost all meaning.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

So I had this thought recently.

Ishar’s plan around the new Oathpact is designed to protect the minds of the Heralds, stopping the torture from getting to them.

But what about their bodies? I mean, the torture is mostly muffled, but anti-Investiture exists now, and it’d be a real short Oathpact if El just goes around Braize stabbing comatose Herald bodies.

 

My guess is that wouldn’t work, either because actual Oathpact-following Heralds are much harder to kill via anti-Investiture than Jezrien was, or because getting anti-Investiture physically to Braize and the Heralds would be too complicated, or actually getting anti-Stormlight/anti-Investiture is now more complicated. But I’m curious what others think.

I don't think Heralds or Fused have a physical form on Braize. Fused of course don't have it because they have no Singers there, Heralds probably don't need it anyway. Moreover, the Physical Realm of Braize is a barren wasteland with almost no atmosphere, their bodies would be dying in a loop because of it. They are probably in their cognitive form and because of this they most likely can't create a Raysium dagger nor anti-light on Braize. It would have to be brought from Roshar, but Fused already tested it and they know it's impossible for them to get to Braize in the Physical Realm. So Heralds are safe from anti-light. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think Heralds or Fused have a physical form on Braize. Fused of course don't have it because they have no Singers there, Heralds probably don't need it anyway. Moreover, the Physical Realm of Braize is a barren wasteland with almost no atmosphere, their bodies would be dying in a loop because of it. They are probably in their cognitive form and because of this they most likely can't create a Raysium dagger nor anti-light on Braize. It would have to be brought from Roshar, but Fused already tested it and they know it's impossible for them to get to Braize in the Physical Realm. So Heralds are safe from anti-light. 

I do think this is the most likely reason, that the Heralds and Fused don’t have entirely Physical forms. Even if the soul of a Herald is accessible, the Fused spirits are made of Investiture and probably couldn’t handle anti-Investiture.

But is Braize inaccessible in the Physical Realm? I don’t think I’ve seen that anywhere. Maybe not directly physical-to-physical, but we know anti-Investiture in a gemstone can survive a trip through an Oathgate/Perpendicularity, and the Fused still have ways of getting to the Cognitive if it’s really important (Dai-Gonarthis, maybe an amplified Husked One, or sneak through the Well of Control).

[QuantumAce]

15 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

But is Braize inaccessible in the Physical Realm? I don’t think I’ve seen that anywhere. Maybe not directly physical-to-physical, but we know anti-Investiture in a gemstone can survive a trip through an Oathgate/Perpendicularity, and the Fused still have ways of getting to the Cognitive if it’s really important (Dai-Gonarthis, maybe an amplified Husked One, or sneak through the Well of Control).

Raboniel specifies they have been unable to travel to Braize in the physical realm, but I dont think we have seen anything definitive on accessibility through alternate means. My impression is that Braize can technically support life, but we still dont know how practical it would be. I believe Brandon is being very deliberate in leaving wiggle room on the details for Braize. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

11 minutes ago, QuantumAce said:

Raboniel specifies they have been unable to travel to Braize in the physical realm, but I dont think we have seen anything definitive on accessibility through alternate means. My impression is that Braize can technically support life, but we still dont know how practical it would be. I believe Brandon is being very deliberate in leaving wiggle room on the details for Braize. 

The line from Raboniel I remember on the subject was about Heavenly Ones trying to fly in space - which they can do, but without Adhesion they die before getting anywhere near Braize from being, well, in space. I don't remember there being some other explicit line denying Physical Realm travel. And Gavilar somehow got Voidlight from Braize to the Physical Realm, although I think it's implied he got it from Shadesmar.

The Fused might even be able to leave the Rosharan system, now - spren can leave, and it's a bit unclear if the new Oathpact is still binding the Fused. (Probably is, but it'll be interesting to see.)

[alder24]

43 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

But is Braize inaccessible in the Physical Realm? I don’t think I’ve seen that anywhere. Maybe not directly physical-to-physical, but we know anti-Investiture in a gemstone can survive a trip through an Oathgate/Perpendicularity, and the Fused still have ways of getting to the Cognitive if it’s really important (Dai-Gonarthis, maybe an amplified Husked One, or sneak through the Well of Control).

They can get through Shadesmar, but there is a barrier storm blocking their way. RoW ch 89:

Quote

Raboniel hummed to an amused rhythm. “No, no, Navani. You can’t travel to Braize in the Physical Realm. That would take … well, I have no idea how long. Plus there’s no air in the space between planets. We sent Heavenly Ones to try it once. No air, and worse, the strange pressures required them to carry a large supply of Voidlight for healing. Even so prepared, they died within hours.
“One instead travels to other worlds through Shadesmar. But again, stay away from Braize. Even if you could get through the barrier storm, the place is barren, devoid of life. Merely a dark sky, endless windswept crags, and a broken landscape. And a lot of souls. A lot of not particularly sane souls.”