Dual Sharblades Update

[soulcastJam]

Kaladin: "Hey Syl, I'm a little tired so why don't you fly around the battlefield and whenever you are about to run into one of my enemies just turn into a shard dagger and stab them."

 

Syl: "But I can't stab them myself Kaladin! I need you for that!"

 

Kal: "No you don't, just build up enough speed, turn into a shard dagger, and let inertia do the rest."

 

Syl: "Well ok, what are you going to be doing?"

 

Kal: "I'll just be sitting over here in the shade with Lopen, Rock has some interesting ideas for Bloody Mary's that he wants us to try."

 

Syl: "But...what if I don't know if they are your enemy or not?"

 

Kal: "Fine then, I'll point them out to you.  Now fly off and stab people for me."

 

Syl: "OK!"

 

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing, but I don't think it works that way.  Think about the way a dead-spren shardblade works.  When you let go it disappears unless you concentrate really hard on it staying there.  I think spren can't change into or stay in physical form without direct contact with their radiant.  Maybe with concentration you could pull off the shard-arrow idea but it would take the kind of focus Adolin had to practice a lot to attain to keep it from disappearing.

[Pathfinder]

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing, but I don't think it works that way.  Think about the way a dead-spren shardblade works.  When you let go it disappears unless you concentrate really hard on it staying there.  I think spren can't change into or stay in physical form without direct contact with their radiant.  Maybe with concentration you could pull off the shard-arrow idea but it would take the kind of focus Adolin had to practice a lot to attain to keep it from disappearing.

The only examples we have of needing to concentrate really hard for the blade to stay is for dead spren shardblades, so although spren blades could be reasoned to act similar, that is not a guarantee that they do. For instance Shallan did not have to concentrate super hard to keep her spren blade staying there when she handed him to Kaladin, and at the time Kaladin was no longer a radiant. 

 

There are WoB that the reason dead spren blades take awhile to summon is you are bringing them "back from the dead" (I am ad-libbing), so perhaps it requires the extra concentration because they do not have the consciousness of their own to maintain their form without being in contact with someone. 

Edited November 5, 2014 by Pathfinder

[maxal]

The only examples we have of needing to concentrate really hard for the blade to stay is for dead spren shardblades, so although spren blades could be reasoned to act similar, that is not a guarantee that they do. For instance Shallan did not have to concentrate super hard to keep her spren blade staying there when she handed him to Kaladin, and at the time Kaladin was no longer a radiant.

 

This is something I have been wondering for a while....

 

In WoR, Dalinar states Aladar has shards, but tends to let his champion use them in his place as he preferred to lead the battle for afar. He also mentions it requires a great deal of trust from both parts as Aladar could summon his Blade back any time he wishes it.

 

This is puzzling me.

 

On one side we have Adolin who is clearly struggling to keep his Blade from disintegrating (and I believe we may have a quote in WoK from Dalinar doing the same thing) and on the other side we have Aladar who lends his Blade without a qualm for a whole battle duration........

 

So what's the deal with lending your Blade? Is it a different command then forcing to not disintegrate? Is it easier, because it sure looks this way...

[Oudeis]

i sorta assumed it was like catching a Koloss. The actual act (for koloss of the capture, for a Blade of letting it out of your hand) is an effort, but once you're past that moment, it becomes easier. It might be another moment's effort to dissolve it from afar and begin the summoning process anew, but the bit in between wouldn't be too difficult.

 

I only think this because it sorta fits what we see, I don't really have much to support my supposition.

[Twenty@20]

I for one never thought that keeping a shardblade stable out of hand was a big deal. We have seen tons of references to it being done easily. I always got the impression that the scene showing Adolin having problems with his shardblade was intended to highlight Adolin's nervousness or lack of confidence and his anxiety following his encounter with Szeth.

I am really like the idea of shardchakra. I am like, dang I should have thought about it earlier being an Indian and all.

[maxal]

I for one never thought that keeping a shardblade stable out of hand was a big deal. We have seen tons of references to it being done easily. I always got the impression that the scene showing Adolin having problems with his shardblade was intended to highlight Adolin's nervousness or lack of confidence and his anxiety following his encounter with Szeth.

 

Didn't Dalinar mentioned how hard it was as well back in WoK? I dimly remember him making a comment on the matter, but it could be I am hallucinating I agree Adolin is not in his best mental state during this particular scene, but what's to make of the Blade dropping incidents we have seen from time to time where the Blade spontaneously disintegrate? Adolin for one dropped his Blade quite a few times... Wouldn't it be best if the Blade remained so he could just grab it back instead of having to re-summon it? If it where this easy, then how come he never sends the command to keep it there in those instances? We also know there is a command to make your Blade reappear in case someone grabs it from you... How can someone grab your own Blade if it keeps disintegrating each time you let go?

 

I also wonder about the effect of stress and anxiety on the commands one sends to the Blade... If a shardholder is particularly anxious and tensed would he struggle to just summon the Blade or is it just the command to keep it there that is difficult?

 

So many questions.....

[Twenty@20]

Re: maxal. What I was trying to say is that keeping a shardblade stable after letting go of it is a matter of saying the right command in perhaps a correct frame of mind. Experienced shareholders should not have any trouble with that but inadvertently dropping the blade means there is no time to give the command.

Though on second thoughts it looks as if throwing a shardblade and handing it over to someone are different and the second one is easier than the first.

But the Adolin scene is definitely meant to highlight his anxiety as he is an expert in giving mental commands (from his own monologue he says he learnt them years ago) to keep his blade intact after throwing.

Edit: it seems that purposeful throwing of shardblade with a mental command of stability is something Brandon has not shown frequently. Wondering why since it is an ridiculously easy way to kill on battlefield. Throw blade. Watch it glide through multiple Parshendi. Summon it back. Throwing shardblade is also illegal in duelling arena.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Twenty@20

[tdogpete]

 

Here's the two WoBs that I think you're talking about. (I found them over here  )

Source:

 

Source:

 

So according to those, he did RAFO the non-combat question, but he later answered it 

So, since Syl could become a human sized object, could she in turn become like a moving statue of herself?  Like a shardstatue, and she could run around punching people ?

[Moogle]

In WoR and WoK, Syl was never able to travel instantly back to Kaladin.

 

I always assumed that the reason why Radiants could summon their Shardblades instantly was because their spren are nearly always nearby, and their spren is what changes into their Shardblade.

 

She wasn't? The only time I can recall her having to physically move is when she had the poison leaf for Kaladin.

 

Pattern seems to come to Shallan instantly. He's out warning people that she's being attacked, and then Shallan seems to instantly summon him when she does her ten heartbeats thing against her attacker.

[Kyats Rani]

Hmmm, honestly I am not sure. The only two weapons I can think of that functioned like a boomerang and were bladed were fictional. The chakram (if i spelled that correctly) from xena, and the krull blade from Krull both of which are aero dynamically impossible lol. 

 

I could see syl reforming after being thrown, so while Kal holds it, it has a handle, but after thrown its full bladed, but then again why even have to throw her? If that is true, couldn't she just change into the blade and fly herself among everyone?

How about shuriken (the throwing stars)? I'm not sure, but I think they really existed (all those ninja anime/films must take them from somewhere, right?). So we could get a big Shardshuriken and voila It doesn't return on it's own though, but I'm sure a Radiant can summon their spren back instantously (after all it can be done to a regular - dead - Shardblade).

 

I don't know how to explain it with the in-book logic, but I don't think spren could just fly around and change into blades to kill their enemies because that would make the Radiants severely overpowered. I guess that after taking the form of a certain weapon a spren is somehow inclined to behave like a real wepon would (except for the fact that they cut the soul and not the body).

[Pathfinder]

So here's another idea. Have your spren turn into a giant sword sized kunai. Tie a rope to the circle part, and begin spinning the blade horizontally till you are a big helicopter circle of death as you walk forward. 

[Kyats Rani]

If the Knights Radiant had all the ideas we have, the Desolations wouldn't last a day

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Unless there are some rules that we are not aware of.

 

SA3 spoilers:

In the Spoiler chapter from SU where they are talking about using storm light In Shadesmer I got the feeling that there are a Ton of relmantic rules that change based on where you are.

Its possible that some things only work because the spren and radent are in proximity/contact with one another.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Moogle
please tag spoilers

[Natanaj]

Theres also the idea of duel-weilding sprenblade and honorblade.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Natanaj

[Oudeis]

Unless there are some rules that we are not aware of.

 

SA3 spoilers:

In the Spoiler chapter from SU where they are talking about using storm light In Shadesmer I got the feeling that there are a Ton of relmantic rules that change based on where you are.

Its possible that some things only work because the spren and radent are in proximity/contact with one another.

 

Please be cautious of spoiling teaser chapters in a thread without a spoiler warning.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Moogle
added spoilers to quote

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Sorry. I did not think that was specific enough to be considered a spoiler.....

[Oudeis]

There was a pretty big one in what you said, and adding a spoiler tag is such a simple step. Even if you don't say much, you're inviting people to respond to what you say. Starting a new thread with SPOILER in the title is another good way to respect the wishes of those like myself, who don't read pre-release chapters, and didn't know that they happen in the setting you described.

[sun tzaro]

She wasn't? The only time I can recall her having to physically move is when she had the poison leaf for Kaladin.

 

Pattern seems to come to Shallan instantly. He's out warning people that she's being attacked, and then Shallan seems to instantly summon him when she does her ten heartbeats thing against her attacker.

 

This is one of those things that requires a careful reread for the more subtle wordings Sanderson might have used, I think. Maybe I'll get around to it at some point - but, from my own recollection, I don't remember Syl or Pattern ever blatantly being described as able to teleport.

 

As for Syl, she's always flitting and flying around, whether to or from Kaladin. Here's a passage for Syl:

 

 

"Wait," Syl said. "What is that?" She zipped away toward Renarin, but Kaladin couldn't spare much thought for her behavior.

 

When she returns:

 

 

The wind began to blow around him. Syl returned to him, zipping through the air as a ribbon of light.

 

That is certainly an example of Syl physically travelling back to Kaladin.

 

As for one of the few times when Shallan summons her shardblade:

 

 

"There is something wrong with your Blade, and with all Blades." She hesitated for just a second. "All but mine. Pattern!"

 

He formed in her hands, the Blade she'd used to kill. 

 

Was Pattern close enough that he was able to just jump into her hands? Did he teleport? It's hard to tell.

Edited November 6, 2014 by sun tzaro

[Moogle]

Was Pattern close enough that he was able to just jump into her hands? Did he teleport? It's hard to tell.

 

Probably teleporting. When Shallan kills Tyn:

Shallan growled, thrusting her hands forward. Mist twisted and writhed in her hands as a brilliantly silver Blade formed there, spearing Tyn through the chest. The woman barely had time to gasp in surprise as her eyes burned in her skull.

 

Pattern isn't there in the tent. He's outside, bringing people to help Shallan. And Shallan would have seen his black form in the air rush towards her to turn into mist if he had to travel physically, or else we'd have an in-text showing of her blatantly pretending not to have seen him.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Moogle

[sun tzaro]

Yep, the description of the Shardblade forming out of mist is pretty solid evidence in your favor. I should have looked at the other passage where Shallan summons her Shardblade, didn't mean to cherrypick.

 

So, I guess that means that a Shardbow wouldn't be terrible. Piercing projectiles, infinite ammo, and while you can only have one projectile at a time, you can reload instantly.

[Oudeis]

There still might be a certain radius within which teleporting is possible, but the point is largely unimportant for this example. Even if it's not an instant return, Syl can clearly travel very, very quickly. Even in a scenario where she has to physically return before becoming the next arrow, it would only be a delay of a few seconds.

 

The greater worry is how little damage a shardarrow would do. The odds of hitting a spine, or even the core of a limb, are extremely low. Killing someone's gall bladder and several inches of intestines will certainly be a bad thing going forward, but it's not going to stop them from stabbing you with a spear on the field today. That's why I preferred something with a wider profile, like a bladed boomerang or a chakram.

[Pathfinder]

There still might be a certain radius within which teleporting is possible, but the point is largely unimportant for this example. Even if it's not an instant return, Syl can clearly travel very, very quickly. Even in a scenario where she has to physically return before becoming the next arrow, it would only be a delay of a few seconds.

 

The greater worry is how little damage a shardarrow would do. The odds of hitting a spine, or even the core of a limb, are extremely low. Killing someone's gall bladder and several inches of intestines will certainly be a bad thing going forward, but it's not going to stop them from stabbing you with a spear on the field today. That's why I preferred something with a wider profile, like a bladed boomerang or a chakram.

This makes me think, could the radiant chose what form of metal theoretically the weapon is made from? Since some metals/materials have greater weight, heft, or balance. Couldn't a radiant have the spren turn into an arrow with a huge broad arrowhead, almost like a directional arrow, but with a lighter weight so it still travels? I don't know enough about arrows to know if this wouldn't work plain and simple out of hand. 

[Oudeis]

The shape is a bigger problem than the weight; in fact, with too little weight, it would lack momentum, and the interestingly-shaped head would catch the air, making the arrow less accurate. A heavier arrow, with enough force, would be more accurate, as it would take a stronger breeze to blow it off course.

[Xavien]

Does the shardblade of a Radiant have to appear in their hand or can it just be touching them? Does it even need to be touching them? Can they materialize as a shardblade inside of another object?

 

And getting a little off topic but...What is stopping spren from just flat out killing people that do not represent their ideals as understood by that spren?

[Pathfinder]

Does the shardblade of a Radiant have to appear in their hand or can it just be touching them? Does it even need to be touching them? Can they materialize as a shardblade inside of another object?

 

And getting a little off topic but...What is stopping spren from just flat out killing people that do not represent their ideals as understood by that spren?

The only question I think I can answer is can they materialize as a shardblade inside another object. If I remember the scene correctly, yes. Shallan killed the woman training her in the caravan (forgot her name). The description seems to imply the sword materialized in shallan's hand, already run through the woman, but I could be missing a part where the woman ran into it, or that is just how Shallan recalled the scene due to the trauma associated with it.