Wind and Truth was just too darn sad.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

I return from my exile to inflict upon you my thoughts once again.

 

Wow, this book was almost unbearable.  I just might have to skip this one on any rereads, unless I want to read more than 1300 pages dedicated to the central theme that everyone can be persuaded and there is essentially no hope for constancy or integrity.

The spren, 'Enlightened' by Sja-anat (especially those poor Oathgate spren).  The Sibling, wheedled by Navani into accepting and becoming complicit in the enslavement of spren.  The Stormfather, bullied by Dalinar into going along with his ploy for godhood.  Yanagawn, naïvely accepting Adolin's friendship when Noura would rather he be the person Azir needs him to be.  Szeth, getting endlessly cajoled by Kaladin over hundreds of pages until he breaks down and abandons his entire worldview for that "self-actualization" and "being a person, not a thing" garbage at the very time when the Cosmere needs instruction-following embodiments of ideals rather than humanity.  Lift resigning herself to growing older, and her spren convincing her that such will be okay.  Queen Fen, caught in a persuade-off between two of the least likable personalities in the Cosmere, doing the only right thing in her situation because any human being would.  Little Gav, influenced into becoming something he was never meant to be.  Tanavast and later Taravangian telling the power of Honor "quiet, you, what I'm doing counts as your intent".

Heck, even Nale and Ishar get in on the "listen to Kaladin, abandon previous thought-patterns" game.

It's just a cavalcade of characters HELPING each other SEE NEW POINTS OF VIEW for THEIR OWN GOOD.  And ignoring anyone who says "please stop doing this".

 

Where is the stick that is a stick?  Where is the unbroken ideal, the remembered tradition, the thing that holds true?

Only among the listeners.  Jaxlim and hers, and their songs, and their friends.  It felt like they had eight pages total, but that bit in the canyons where they sing old songs and new might be more important than hundreds of pages before or after it.  If there is any hope it lies within them.  They aren't enslaving spren, or working on weapons to kill them.  They reject that which is to be rejected, and remember that which is to be remembered.  They might just be the ones to inherit the earth.

This whole book, we see souls becoming misaligned.  Ghostbloods going rogue, honorbearers serving evil, heralds as funhouse-mirror versions of what they ought to be, kingdoms turning traitor against their emperor, Shin's people acting outside of their traditions.

And finally, the biggest misalignment of all, the merge of Honor and Odium, the failure of Roshar at its most important purpose.

Edited February 11, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[BridgeBoi]

Where is the stick that is a stick?  Where is the unbroken ideal, the remembered tradition, the thing that holds true?

Their name is Talenelat'Elin, the bearer of agonies. That man still fought back.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

True, that he did.  That he did.

So what are we left with, in terms of they who cannot be persuaded?  A dead herald, and a handful of listeners and their friends?  With what feels like fewer than twenty-four pages, all put together?  Surrounded by everything and everyone else being... malleable?

Forgive me my nervous disposition, but I find it difficult to muster up much hope, here.

It seems to me that when next we turn to Roshar, the spren will, in the main, be dead or enslaved or "enlightened".  Roshar seems to me to be much less Taln's world, and MUCH less the world of the listeners, and much more the world of Navani Kholin.  Ten years between books can only make things worse.

Edited February 12, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Ookla she/her]

To be fair, we're halfway through the series. In tehnical story-writing terms, we're at the midpoint, which is where everything the characters have been doing and believing is typically flipped upside down and turned on its head. I don't think we're going to get the glorious, triumphant ending we want until Book 10. Yeah, we got some endings like that in the previous books, but that's because the story hadn't hit its darkest point yet, and even now I think you're right that things are only on their way down. We might get some inklings of hope along the way to help us through, but in story terms things shouldn't start looking up again until the end of Book 9, possibly even later. 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

That doesn't make things any better for any of those who are stuck between now and then, between here and there.  How many spren are going to die or worse?  They're not supposed to suffer like that, or be able to die.  What's going to happen to all the innocents?  What kind of world does is Oroden going to grow up in?

And if we have to wait ten real-life years for the next one, who knows how much more bleak and sad we'll all be then, considering what a horrible decade this has been compared to the previous, and how that one was compared to its previous, and its previous.  By the time book ten is written, it might not even be possible to conceive of, much less write, the glorious triumphant ending we all want.

I guess I just wanted more truth (as in, that which stays true to itself) and less wind (as in, that which is blown with every gust of wind) in Wind and Truth.

[MagicMaggot]

13 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Where is the stick that is a stick?  Where is the unbroken ideal, the remembered tradition, the thing that holds true?

 

Could you explain what kinds of things you think "held true" before TaW, for contrast?

Because I don't really get what is new about pretty much anything you're saying here. Characters stumbling around and questioning their morals and identity was pretty much a main feature from the start, not a bug that crept in now. Oaths weren't as much proudly kept as barely clung to, often as a way to maintain sanity, when near a breaking point. Traditions and presuppositions were thrown out left and right, because they were false, or just not fit for purpose anymore. Spren were bullied, corrupted, in constant fear for their lives, and even experimented on. And the heralds were broken from the start. 

Things changed all the time, and nothing was really ever save from it. It's one hell of a journey. I understand the criticisms of how much TaW was on the nose, how the pacing was off, or how the prose failed, as well as the expectations some people had that it failed to meet. How the lack of stability is supposed to be a difference to the preceding books escapes me, though.

[TheoreticalMagic]

I mean, I agree with some of what you're saying here OP, but I do think some of your interpretations are not totally made in good faith. For instance, you can certainly criticize Kaladin's methodology as heavy-handed (it is, but a lot of that is due to the fact that the book's plot and timeline demanded packing years worth of therapy into a ten day roadtrip), but its not exactly an assault on Szeth's agency to try and impress "you are a person" upon a guy whose personhood has been battered to hell and back not because of a lack of intelligence or inability to understand this himself, but rather due to the fact that everyone IN Szeth's belief system had systematically gaslit him for years. Like. Countering that with "no, you don't have to listen to what the people who very much did not have your best interests at heart had to say about your personhood and morality" is not like. Actually a bad thing, y'know? LOL.

I just mean Szeth's worldview (over the past six years prior to this) was not natural or organic to him, it was willfully subverted by people who abused the trust he'd put in them once upon a time. I don't think this can comparably be put on the same level as Dalinar or Navani who I do agree DID at times bulldoze past the Stormfather and Sibling's own preferences and beliefs out of a bullheaded conviction in their own righteousness....which in their cases, stems at least in part from their history as high-ranking nobility within a literal in-world oppressor caste. Which is.....completely at the opposite end of the spectrum from Kaladin, a longtime victim of an oppressor caste and slavery system trying to reach out to somebody he - with validity - sees himself, his own past and his own struggles to regain his personhood reflected in.

A former slave helping another former slave to recognize "hey, how screwed up is it that people owned us and told us they were right to because they said God told them it was okay" is orders of magnitude different from a king and queen used to upending society on the basis of "God told me I had the inherent right to do what I want because My Eye Color Is Popping" like.....having the confidence of self required to listen to the objections of the last remaining pieces of that God and then go "yeah I'm not gonna do your plan, we're gonna do my plan instead."

Characters paternalistically imposing their belief systems over other characters they regard as less sophisticated or informed is regrettably a thing that pops up in various cosmere works IMO, but in this particular instance that is not actually the issue at hand. Szeth's entire storyline is about him REGAINING his belief system/personal morality and finding renewed strength and conviction in what he ALREADY organically believed in the past, based on his own interpretation of the world and his culture.....after having those things deliberately misrepresented, twisted and used against him by bad actors who happened to be literal religious figures in his culture after they went and got high on Odium-juice.

And like....Nale and Ishar's previous thought patterns were quite literally magically corrupted by said Odium-juice. You can't honestly equate trying to dissuade them from listening to magically-induced intrusive thoughts with telling them not to listen to their own NATURAL minds and beliefs. Their minds and beliefs were not wholly theirs anymore and hadn't been for centuries, and this wasn't even a neurodivergency issue so much as Ishar accidentally downloading magical cosmere malware and infecting the group chat.

Edited February 12, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[QuantumAce]

22 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

It's just a cavalcade of characters HELPING each other SEE NEW POINTS OF VIEW for THEIR OWN GOOD.  And ignoring anyone who says "please stop doing this".

People being forced to change is pretty standard for the apocalypse. Azir needs a better leader than who Noura naïvely thinks Yanagawn should be. The Coalition needs Lift to grow up and be a hero, instead of pretending to be a little kid forever. 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

6 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

I mean, I agree with some of what you're saying here OP, but I do think some of your interpretations are not totally made in good faith. For instance, you can certainly criticize Kaladin's methodology as heavy-handed (it is, but a lot of that is due to the fact that the book's plot and timeline demanded packing years worth of therapy into a ten day roadtrip), but its not exactly an assault on Szeth's agency to try and impress "you are a person" upon a guy whose personhood has been battered to hell and back not because of a lack of intelligence or inability to understand this himself, but rather due to the fact that everyone IN Szeth's belief system had systematically gaslit him for years. Like. Countering that with "no, you don't have to listen to what the people who very much did not have your best interests at heart had to say about your personhood and morality" is not like. Actually a bad thing, y'know? LOL.

When you don't like or trust your own thoughts, being told "Your thoughts matter, and it's okay to do things because you want to do them rather than because you think they're the things you ought to do" is very distressing.  When you resent the fact that you have thoughts, feelings, and opinions, being told to accept and listen to them feels like abandonment.  When what you want more than anything is exact, perfect, reliable, right answers for morality, being told that nobody can provide you with such and you have to trust your own judgement feels like drowning, not liberation.  What Kaladin's saying (or at least trying to say) is good and is in good faith, but when you're convinced that your prison is where you belong, you interpret your desire to be free as a horrifying temptation to escape life itself.  Kaladin, of course, couldn't have known that Szeth would interpret "you deserve to be comfortable in your own skin" as "you deserve the comfort of an ending", but for the readers who have been in Szeth's head, it makes total sense that he would get that out of it.

To Kaladin's eternal credit, he self-corrects when confronted with the effects of his efforts, which neither Dalinar nor Navani do.  

6 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

A former slave helping another former slave to recognize "hey, how screwed up is it that people owned us and told us they were right to because they said God told them it was okay" is orders of magnitude different from a king and queen used to upending society on the basis of "God told me I had the inherent right to do what I want because My Eye Color Is Popping" like.....having the confidence of self required to listen to the objections of the last remaining pieces of that God and then go "yeah I'm not gonna do your plan, we're gonna do my plan instead."

Yeah, can't argue with that.

6 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

I just mean Szeth's worldview (over the past six years prior to this) was not natural or organic to him, it was willfully subverted by people who abused the trust he'd put in them once upon a time. I don't think this can comparably be put on the same level as Dalinar or Navani who I do agree DID at times bulldoze past the Stormfather and Sibling's own preferences and beliefs out of a bullheaded conviction in their own righteousness....which in their cases, stems at least in part from their history as high-ranking nobility within a literal in-world oppressor caste. Which is.....completely at the opposite end of the spectrum from Kaladin, a longtime victim of an oppressor caste and slavery system trying to reach out to somebody he - with validity - sees himself, his own past and his own struggles to regain his personhood reflected in.

Note how Kaladin finally resolves himself to turn down the offer of becoming royalty at about the same time he turns away from the "I'm helping you, this is for your own good, shut up" tendency we often see in the Kholins.  It was a close thing, though, and perhaps, in becoming a Herald, he has accepted (or will find himself accepting) that which he had just turned down.

6 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Characters paternalistically imposing their belief systems over other characters they regard as less sophisticated or informed is regrettably a thing that pops up in various cosmere works IMO, but in this particular instance that is not actually the issue at hand. Szeth's entire storyline is about him REGAINING his belief system/personal morality and finding renewed strength and conviction in what he ALREADY organically believed in the past, based on his own interpretation of the world and his culture.....after having those things deliberately misrepresented, twisted and used against him by bad actors who happened to be literal religious figures in his culture after they went and got high on Odium-juice.

So, you're saying that Szeth's character development in this isn't a second misalignment, but a realignment?  That makes it a lot easier to accept.  But it still proves that people are flawed and changeable.  And that's not a good thing, I think.

6 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

And like....Nale and Ishar's previous thought patterns were quite literally magically corrupted by said Odium-juice. You can't honestly equate trying to dissuade them from listening to magically-induced intrusive thoughts with telling them not to listen to their own NATURAL minds and beliefs. Their minds and beliefs were not wholly theirs anymore and hadn't been for centuries, and this wasn't even a neurodivergency issue so much as Ishar accidentally downloading magical cosmere malware and infecting the group chat.

Hmm.  I suppose my interpretations might have insufficiently appreciated the sheer amount of Odium-induced-misalignment that chronologically took place before the non-flashback events of Wind and Truth.  Say no to Odium-juice, kids!

 

Realignment is an interesting interpretation.  It's probably correct.

Edited February 12, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[bmcclure7]

On 2/11/2025 at 2:53 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I return from my exile to inflict upon you my thoughts once again.

 

Wow, this book was almost unbearable.  I just might have to skip this one on any rereads, unless I want to read more than 1300 pages dedicated to the central theme that everyone can be persuaded and there is essentially no hope for constancy or integrity.

The spren, 'Enlightened' by Sja-anat (especially those poor Oathgate spren).  The Sibling, wheedled by Navani into accepting and becoming complicit in the enslavement of spren.  The Stormfather, bullied by Dalinar into going along with his ploy for godhood.  Yanagawn, naïvely accepting Adolin's friendship when Noura would rather he be the person Azir needs him to be.  Szeth, getting endlessly cajoled by Kaladin over hundreds of pages until he breaks down and abandons his entire worldview for that "self-actualization" and "being a person, not a thing" garbage at the very time when the Cosmere needs instruction-following embodiments of ideals rather than humanity.  Lift resigning herself to growing older, and her spren convincing her that such will be okay.  Queen Fen, caught in a persuade-off between two of the least likable personalities in the Cosmere, doing the only right thing in her situation because any human being would.  Little Gav, influenced into becoming something he was never meant to be.  Tanavast and later Taravangian telling the power of Honor "quiet, you, what I'm doing counts as your intent".

Heck, even Nale and Ishar get in on the "listen to Kaladin, abandon previous thought-patterns" game.

It's just a cavalcade of characters HELPING each other SEE NEW POINTS OF VIEW for THEIR OWN GOOD.  And ignoring anyone who says "please stop doing this".

 

Where is the stick that is a stick?  Where is the unbroken ideal, the remembered tradition, the thing that holds true?

Only among the listeners.  Jaxlim and hers, and their songs, and their friends.  It felt like they had eight pages total, but that bit in the canyons where they sing old songs and new might be more important than hundreds of pages before or after it.  If there is any hope it lies within them.  They aren't enslaving spren, or working on weapons to kill them.  They reject that which is to be rejected, and remember that which is to be remembered.  They might just be the ones to inherit the earth.

This whole book, we see souls becoming misaligned.  Ghostbloods going rogue, honorbearers serving evil, heralds as funhouse-mirror versions of what they ought to be, kingdoms turning traitor against their emperor, Shin's people acting outside of their traditions.

And finally, the biggest misalignment of all, the merge of Honor and Odium, the failure of Roshar at its most important purpose.

While I enjoyed the book I have to agreed with some of these.

one of my many disappointments with Kal storyline is Nale. Nale keeps making logical arguments for his pov and instead of looking for flaws Kal just insists that Nale is crazy.  
 

That said lesser spren are animals you can’t enslave them any more than you can enclave a horse. 

12 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

Could you explain what kinds of things you think "held true" before TaW, for contrast?

Because I don't really get what is new about pretty much anything you're saying here. Characters stumbling around and questioning their morals and identity was pretty much a main feature from the start, not a bug that crept in now. Oaths weren't as much proudly kept as barely clung to, often as a way to maintain sanity, when near a breaking point. Traditions and presuppositions were thrown out left and right, because they were false, or just not fit for purpose anymore. Spren were bullied, corrupted, in constant fear for their lives, and even experimented on. And the heralds were broken from the start. 

Things changed all the time, and nothing was really ever save from it. It's one hell of a journey. I understand the criticisms of how much TaW was on the nose, how the pacing was off, or how the prose failed, as well as the expectations some people had that it failed to meet. How the lack of stability is supposed to be a difference to the preceding books escapes me, though.

1.The codes of war

2. The way of kings

3. The oaths 

4. The spren (pre oathbringer when the spren were less human and more living ideals)

true there were themes of chance and breaking of tradition but it was balanced with the themes of stabile constants and redescovery of older traditions 

Edited February 12, 2025 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

I mean, I agree with some of what you're saying here OP, but I do think some of your interpretations are not totally made in good faith. For instance, you can certainly criticize Kaladin's methodology as heavy-handed (it is, but a lot of that is due to the fact that the book's plot and timeline demanded packing years worth of therapy into a ten day roadtrip), but its not exactly an assault on Szeth's agency to try and impress "you are a person" upon a guy whose personhood has been battered to hell and back not because of a lack of intelligence or inability to understand this himself, but rather due to the fact that everyone IN Szeth's belief system had systematically gaslit him for years. Like. Countering that with "no, you don't have to listen to what the people who very much did not have your best interests at heart had to say about your personhood and morality" is not like. Actually a bad thing, y'know? LOL.

I just mean Szeth's worldview (over the past six years prior to this) was not natural or organic to him, it was willfully subverted by people who abused the trust he'd put in them once upon a time. I don't think this can comparably be put on the same level as Dalinar or Navani who I do agree DID at times bulldoze past the Stormfather and Sibling's own preferences and beliefs out of a bullheaded conviction in their own righteousness....which in their cases, stems at least in part from their history as high-ranking nobility within a literal in-world oppressor caste. Which is.....completely at the opposite end of the spectrum from Kaladin, a longtime victim of an oppressor caste and slavery system trying to reach out to somebody he - with validity - sees himself, his own past and his own struggles to regain his personhood reflected in.

A former slave helping another former slave to recognize "hey, how screwed up is it that people owned us and told us they were right to because they said God told them it was okay" is orders of magnitude different from a king and queen used to upending society on the basis of "God told me I had the inherent right to do what I want because My Eye Color Is Popping" like.....having the confidence of self required to listen to the objections of the last remaining pieces of that God and then go "yeah I'm not gonna do your plan, we're gonna do my plan instead."

Characters paternalistically imposing their belief systems over other characters they regard as less sophisticated or informed is regrettably a thing that pops up in various cosmere works IMO, but in this particular instance that is not actually the issue at hand. Szeth's entire storyline is about him REGAINING his belief system/personal morality and finding renewed strength and conviction in what he ALREADY organically believed in the past, based on his own interpretation of the world and his culture.....after having those things deliberately misrepresented, twisted and used against him by bad actors who happened to be literal religious figures in his culture after they went and got high on Odium-juice.

And like....Nale and Ishar's previous thought patterns were quite literally magically corrupted by said Odium-juice. You can't honestly equate trying to dissuade them from listening to magically-induced intrusive thoughts with telling them not to listen to their own NATURAL minds and beliefs. Their minds and beliefs were not wholly theirs anymore and hadn't been for centuries, and this wasn't even a neurodivergency issue so much as Ishar accidentally downloading magical cosmere malware and infecting the group chat.

 

“I just mean Szeth's worldview (over the past six years prior to this) was not natural or organic to him, it was willfully subverted by people who abused the trust he'd put in them once upon a time. I don't think this can comparably be put on the same level as Dalinar or Navani who I do agree DID at times bulldoze past the Stormfather and Sibling's own preferences and beliefs out of a bullheaded conviction in their own righteousness....which in their cases, stems at least in part from their history as high-ranking nobility within a literal in-world oppressor caste. Which is.....completely at the opposite end of the spectrum from Kaladin, a longtime victim of an oppressor caste and slavery system trying to reach out to somebody he - with validity - sees himself, his own past and his own struggles to regain his personhood reflected in.”

 

1. Did you even read the book? It made it very clear that zseth has always been the way he is from the time he was a kid and didn’t know if he should or shouldn’t move a stone.

 

2. Kal subject Zseth to the same torture that the cia forced on the unabomber and as a result he broke his oaths.  Al under the excuse of “helping “ Zseth the entire time I wanted Zseth to just tell him to storm off. 

[Treamayne]

On 2/12/2025 at 3:39 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

When you don't like or trust your own thoughts, being told "Your thoughts matter, and it's okay to do things because you want to do them rather than because you think they're the things you ought to do" is very distressing.  When you resent the fact that you have thoughts, feelings, and opinions, being told to accept and listen to them feels like abandonment.  When what you want more than anything is exact, perfect, reliable, right answers for morality, being told that nobody can provide you with such and you have to trust your own judgement feels like drowning, not liberation.  What Kaladin's saying (or at least trying to say) is good and is in good faith, but when you're convinced that your prison is where you belong, you interpret your desire to be free as a horrifying temptation to escape life itself.  Kaladin, of course, couldn't have known that Szeth would interpret "you deserve to be comfortable in your own skin" as "you deserve the comfort of an ending", but for the readers who have been in Szeth's head, it makes total sense that he would get that out of it.

Seanan McGuire had an awesome essay on her OCD in the Altered Perceptions anthology. The exerpts this remind me of (bolding mine):

Spoiler

One in fifty Americans lives with OCD. I won’t say “suffers from,” because not all of us are suffering; I am not suffering. I am no more or less normal than anyone else. It’s just that I start from a different position on the field. Some people with OCD do suffer, because it can be a crippling condition. It’s the luck of the draw, the same as anything else. We learn to work around it. We learn to cope.

I will be coping for my entire life.

Because I am very functional, I do occasionally have to deal with people assuming that I’m exaggerating. I don’t compulsively vacuum my floor or clean my kitchen, I’m definitely not a germophobe, and if I re-type books completely between drafts, well, that’s just a quirk. But obsession and compulsion both take many forms, and while I have found peace with mine, and consider them a vital part of who I am, that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. (Why I would joke about having something that is considered a mental illness, I don’t know.)

The dominant idea of OCD is still Adrian Monk or Hannelore, or Emma from Glee. I’ve been in tears over her many times since the show began, because it breaks my heart a little when I see her struggling to control something she never asked for, never did anything to earn, and has to deal with all the same. Most people with OCD aren’t these stereotypes. They’re your friend who always has hand sanitizer, or your cousin who never leaves the house until seven minutes after the hour. They’re the guy you went to college with who has a collection of lawn gnomes in his bathroom, and buys a new one every six months. They’re your favorite football player. They’re that composer you like.

They’re me.

Remember that just because someone is a functional, relatively normal-seeming human being, that doesn’t mean they’re wired the same way that you are. I have to remind myself that not everybody wants their day broken down into fifteen-minute increments, because for me, that is the norm. The human mind is an amazing thing, full of possibilities, and each of us expresses them differently. I am a cybernetic space princess from Mars, and that’s not a choice I made; that’s the way I was made. I can get an address on Earth, but Mars will always be my home.

I made a comment on Twitter not long ago that I was an “odd duck,” because I wanted to dance to a Ludo song at my wedding (no, one isn’t planned, I just like to think ahead). A friend of mine replied, “You’re not an odd duck, you’re a normal platypus.” I think I’m going to roll with that. So the next time someone wants to be early, or can’t leave the house without checking that the toaster is unplugged, or does something else you can’t understand but that doesn’t actually hurt you, please try to remember that it’s a big ecosystem. We have room for ducks and platypi.

I see a lot of myself in Szeth. I, too, follow many rules because they are rules for a reason. I like having defined standards. There is one primary difference between us - when I find a specific technique or method for doing something that is more efficient or makes more sense, I use that (if possible) - and I trust myself enough to trust when I devise those techniques and methods. I do not think that Kaladin understood that Szeth started from a different position on the field, so he could not adjust his advice to account for Szeths needs that were different from his own. Much of that is because Kaladin was barely starting to understand his own state of mind; and psychology as a science and art is in its infancy for Roshar - so it's not like he had any references from which to realize those facts.

Before the trip to Shinovar, what little Kal had done and accompished was with people in a similar state and with similar issues (depression - in its myriad forms). I can forgive most of his mistakes, because he was obviously willing to learn from them.

 

On 2/12/2025 at 5:37 PM, bmcclure7 said:

One of my many disappointments with Kal storyline is Nale. Nale keeps making logical arguments for his pov and instead of looking for flaws Kal just insists that Nale is crazy.  

Partially concur. On the one hand, Nale was influenced by Odium-via-Ishar Madness (and, to me, this was Kal trying to get him to accept that something is seriously wrong with his reasoning); on the other hand, Kal is not trained in logic or rhetoric and I would not expect him to be able to articulate those points well when really he's trying to vocalize an instinct he doesn;t quite understand himself. Was it painful? Yes. Was it a mostly beleivable train-wreck? Yes. At least to me.

 

PS: Please don't double post. Edit your post if you have more to add. Please see the Sharder FAQ if you need tips on multi-quote or adding quotes to edits.

Edited February 13, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[TheoreticalMagic]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Did you even read the book? It made it very clear that zseth has always been the way he is from the time he was a kid and didn’t know if he should or shouldn’t move a stone.

You mean the book that showed Szeth literally led a revolution against the other Honorblade-bearers and was in the end upheld as having been right to do so, its just that the literal voice in his head revealed itself to be one of his religious figures and had him thrown into slavery which for a time made Szeth doubt himself and his convictions to the extent that he refused to make any further choices himself because people he trusted convinced him that every choice he'd made on his own was disastrous and wrong?

Yes, I read it.

Again, I'm not arguing that Kaladin's approach wasn't flawed and he made no mistakes in his efforts with Szeth. I'm simply arguing that the intent to get a guy who has been used as an unthinking weapon to assassinate leaders and foment global chaos to think for himself is not inherently more immoral than just telling him what to do because this guy insists that his belief is that he is incapable of deciding things for himself so its better for everyone if you just tell him exactly what to do no matter the consequences. Yes, Kaladin messed up at times with Szeth, but as OP acknowledges, he recognizes this and course corrects at times as well, which is part of Kaladin's storyline not being Infallible Perfect Protagonist Man Rides to the Rescue. The process was not without problems, but the direction Kaladin came at things from and the source of his belief that Szeth's worldview had been subverted and exploited at his expense comes from a wholly different place from the paternalistic self-righteousness that characterized a lot of the people who were perfectly comfortable exploiting Szeth's self-doubts in order to wield him as a weapon. That is my point.

Edited February 13, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

1 hour ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Again, I'm not arguing that Kaladin's approach wasn't flawed and he made no mistakes in his efforts with Szeth. I'm simply arguing that the intent to get a guy who has been used as an unthinking weapon to assassinate leaders and foment global chaos to think for himself is not inherently more immoral than just telling him what to do because this guy insists that his belief is that he is incapable of deciding things for himself so its better for everyone if you just tell him exactly what to do no matter the consequences. Yes, Kaladin messed up at times with Szeth, but as OP acknowledges, he recognizes this and course corrects at times as well, which is part of Kaladin's storyline not being Infallible Perfect Protagonist Man Rides to the Rescue. The process was not without problems, but the direction Kaladin came at things from and the source of his belief that Szeth's worldview had been subverted and exploited at his expense comes from a wholly different place from the paternalistic self-righteousness that characterized a lot of the people who were perfectly comfortable exploiting Szeth's self-doubts in order to wield him as a weapon. That is my point.

For the record, I'm not actually okay with how that got resolved, and Fallible Imperfect Protagonist Man Tries His Best, Recognizes His Mistakes, And Sticks The Landing can be just as tedious (or, alternately, just as wonderful) as Infallible Perfect Protagonist Man Rides To The Rescue (heck, Casablanca, one of the best movies of all time, gets a lot of mileage out of having the two archetypes play off of each other).  

Kaladin is now a Herald, and, as such, people are much, much less likely to give him the kind of "do not assume I will endure you trying to 'save' me.  Not all within your judging gaze are in need of your protection" pushback that Szeth did.  There's a reason confessions are usually to familiar and local priests rather than the heads of religions, and there's a reason therapists aren't supposed to be authority figures.

Kaladin might not, in those chapters, be coming from the same place as Navani and Dalinar and Sja-anat and Taravangian do, but the distance is small at best.  I agree that it's not equivalent, but it rhymes, and the patterns match.

Having lived through the start of this decade, I would VERY much like to have seen " 'following instructions even when it makes you miserable' can, sometimes, be not only the noble choice, but the only acceptable option, and 'questioning authority and deciding for yourself' can, sometimes, lead to total disaster and a more horrible helplessness than any obedience... but not always, so be careful who you trust and what choices you make or choose not to make " be the endpoint, rather than a complete endorsement of unrestrained personal volition and a renouncing of oaths.

Couldn't the Skybreaker be right, rather than the Windrunner, for once!  Just once!

(Also, why do you call me OP?  Is it some kind of 17th-shard in-joke I'm not getting?)

Edited February 13, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Treamayne]

25 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Couldn't the Skybreaker be right, rather than the Windrunner, for once!

He will be, when he discovers the real Skybreakers following the original Oaths instead of Nales "new oaths."

Edited February 13, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[TheoreticalMagic]

2 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

For the record, I'm not actually okay with how that got resolved, and Fallible Imperfect Protagonist Man Tries His Best, Recognizes His Mistakes, And Sticks The Landing can be just as tedious (or, alternately, just as wonderful) as Infallible Perfect Protagonist Man Rides To The Rescue (heck, Casablanca, one of the best movies of all time, gets a lot of mileage out of having the two archetypes play off of each other).  

(Also, why do you call me OP?  Is it some kind of 17th-shard in-joke I'm not getting?)

That's more than fair, but I consider that an issue with how the storyline was executed, versus a blanket "it would've been better to enable Szeth's abuse-modified behavior and beliefs than even attempt to pushback against them as long as pushback of any kind can be qualified as over-riding his ideological autonomy as well." The resolution didn't wholly work for me either, in large part because I do think its overly ambitious to try and pack a radical mental health paradigm shift storyline into a mere ten days in-universe, and the timeline was always going to strain my suspension of disbelief. I'm a big fan of the series and there's a ton of things I love, but just because I would rather certain things have happened for the sake of the story/characters than not happened at all, doesn't mean I believe they were necessarily done as well as they could've - or SHOULD'VE - been, IMO. You don't even want to get me started on my aggravation with Words of Radiance and "Dalinar being a more decent guy than most others of his caste does not remove his complicity in all the times he does not make exceptions for dark-eyed individuals who haven't personally saved his or his sons' lives" and other such trains of thought, lol.

 

And no in-joke intended, OP in various other parts of the web is just a way of saying Opening Poster and a shorthand for the poster who started a discussion. Sorry for not making that clear, I thought it was a more common usage than it apparently is.

[MagicMaggot]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.The codes of war

2. The way of kings

3. The oaths 

And any of those are less constant within/after WaT than they were before? It's not like the characters rigidly adhered to any of that before. I don't think anyone but Dalinar even tried. I'm not sure who of the main cast has even (had) read 1 and 2, they certainly weren't the influence on them that they were on Dalinar.

 Maybe the radiant oaths were a bit of an exception here, but it's not like they were ever kept just because they were oaths. They were kept for a bunch of moral and personal reasons that were different from radiant to radiant. 

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. The spren (pre oathbringer when the spren were less human and more living ideals)

 

I'm talking about what changed in WaT, because the thread is explicitly about WaT. Changes between The first 4 books are different discussions.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Also, why do you call me OP?  Is it some kind of 17th-shard in-joke I'm not getting?)

From the Sharder FAQ:

Spoiler

WHAT ARE ALL THOSE ACRONYMS

Quote

These are not required, but may often be used without definitions and/or context

General:

• WoB = Word of Brandon
  • WoP/WoI = Peter, Isaac (etc.)
• RP = Role Play
• SU = Status Update
• OP = Original Post (Poster) - The first post in the thread, or referencing the Sharder that made that post
• OT = Off Topic (comments that are not directly connected to the OP)
• Rep = Reputation Points (See below - Reactions)
• SPAG = Spelling and Grammar
• BLUF = Bottom Fine Up Front (Summary at the top of a post)
• TLDR = Too Long, Didn't Read (Summary at the bottom of a post)

<continues to specific book/series vocab>

Plus much more info and tips

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 2/11/2025 at 3:53 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Wow, this book was almost unbearable.  I just might have to skip this one on any rereads, unless I want to read more than 1300 pages dedicated to the central theme that everyone can be persuaded and there is essentially no hope for constancy or integrity.

Maybe it's more about how even the good guys have been the bad guys at times. Maybe it's less to do with holding fast to one side no matter what, and more to do with realizing that when we each choose for ourselves instead of letting others choose for us we can create our own side. The Oathgate spren choosing to be independent and to make their own decisions about when to let people pass through, other spren also choosing to allow Sja-Anat to enlighten them and be 'reborn' in a way, the Sibling finding a compromise with Navanni that improves the existence of lesser spren while still giving the humans a way to create amazing tools in a more 'humane' way...

Each of the examples you listed represent (to me at least) breaking free from the control of larger/higher powers and forging our own paths. Refusing to play the game as we've been instructed to, and finding the value in a middle ground. Exploring solutions for the betterment of everyone instead of exploring solutions for the betterment of ONE SIDE.

That's what Roshar has been for millenia - 2 sides fighting against each other, refusing to find any common ground or compromise, determined to destroy one another. Now we have Leshwi and others with her who have rebelled against Odium and joined the Listeners, Adolin and his Unoathed crew who have created their own special circumstances and an Oasis for people to come and find safety. A new oathpact with heralds who had given up and even been corrupted, yet who have made the decision and commitment to take a new path instead of falling into the same old patterns as before. Even Taravangian broke when it came time to prove his commitment to his 'values/philosophy' - he could not destroy everything that he loved, and instead keeps it safe and holds to his secret tightly for fear of showing his weakness. He also has the attention of all the other shards (not to mention a couple hidden from his view that he has to be very paranoid about, particularly Valor). He can't act with impunity and has his hands tied in many ways that limits his ability to do damage.

I see an amazing situation where the patterns have all been broken and the game is reset anew. Instead of the powers of Honor and Odium fighting against each other, they are tentatively working together. Cultivation has fled, but left behind a few key players in the game with spectacular abilities of their own.

In short, I don't see an end - I see a brand new beginning and a whole lot of hope for the future.

[QuantumAce]

13 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

For the record, I'm not actually okay with how that got resolved, and Fallible Imperfect Protagonist Man Tries His Best, Recognizes His Mistakes, And Sticks The Landing can be just as tedious (or, alternately, just as wonderful) as Infallible Perfect Protagonist Man Rides To The Rescue

But did Kaladin stick the landing? My take was that he barely avoided complete disaster, while leaving a trail of destruction and pain. That was about the ugliest win possible. 

[Nitpicking]

20 hours ago, Treamayne said:

... and phychology as a science and art is in its infancy for Roshar ...

Yes, phycology (the study of algae) is very primitive on Roshar. Even our natural historian, Shallan, doesn't devote much time or effort to it. It's quite disappointing.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

13 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

The Oathgate spren choosing to be independent and to make their own decisions about when to let people pass through, other spren also choosing to allow Sja-Anat to enlighten them and be 'reborn' in a way...

Each of the examples you listed represent (to me at least) breaking free from the control of larger/higher powers and forging our own paths. Refusing to play the game as we've been instructed to, and finding the value in a middle ground. Exploring solutions for the betterment of everyone instead of exploring solutions for the betterment of ONE SIDE.

That's just betrayal.  Nuance.  Compromise.  Progress.  There's no ideal in that, no certainty, no devotion or sincerity or conviction.

13 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

the Sibling finding a compromise with Navanni that improves the existence of lesser spren while still giving the humans a way to create amazing tools in a more 'humane' way...

The subordination of the spiritual, that which was intended to be free, to the material needs of encroaching modernity, is anything but good.  Adonalsium made the spren to be free.  This is a "compromise" in the same way that we speak of someone's abilities being compromised.

 

13 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I see an amazing situation where the patterns have all been broken and the game is reset anew. Instead of the powers of Honor and Odium fighting against each other, they are tentatively working together. Cultivation has fled, but left behind a few key players in the game with spectacular abilities of their own.

In short, I don't see an end - I see a brand new beginning and a whole lot of hope for the future.

Dang it, you're almost certainly right.  Sigh.

If I'd known this series was going to be another nuance-fest about how relativism is awesome, another fascinating fantasy world slowly paved into something soulless and modern, another story to explain why ideals are dumb nonsense for losers too stupid or mentally ill to think for themselves, I'd have saved myself thousands of pages.

Clearly, this series was written for your reading pleasure.  I hope you enjoy it.  Sincerely, I do.

Edited February 14, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

10 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

That's just betrayal.  Nuance.  Compromise.  Progress.  There's no ideal in that, no certainty, no devotion or sincerity or conviction.

Would you prefer the ideal of blind obedience and devotion to one side regardless of circumstance? Are you opposed to people folloiwng their convictions with sincerity, devoted to doing what they feel is right even though it may put them at odds with the larger movement that they have previously supported? I'm all for people getting to make their own choices, and very against people being controlled by a dictator who they are not allowed to question.

10 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The subordination of the spiritual, that which was intended to be free, to the material needs of encroaching modernity, is anything but good.  Adonalsium made the spren to be free.  This is a "compromise" in the same way that we speak of someone's abilities being compromised.

Bippy the flamespren seemed pretty happy to me. And I believe that the Sibling agreed to this change because they were able to recognize that this was a good solution. It's literally no different from riding horses or having them pull a cart. If you treat them well and meet their needs, I think it's fine. If you mistreat them and torture them then it's not cool. The Sibling's very nature would not allow them to agree to this if it wasn't an acceptable one. Protecting the spren is one of their top priorities. Adonalsium made the spren, and part of that included creating the groundwork for fabrial creation. The earlier Rosharans had a better process, one that invovled spren choosing to manifest as fabrials. This only worked with true spren (higher spren with sapience), so eventually they learned to trap the lesser spren. I see this more as a growth/progress for Navani and humans at large, as they admit that their previous process was not right. So they are changing to make it so that the spren used in fabrials are well treated. 

10 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

If I'd known this series was going to be another nuance-fest about how relativism is awesome, another fascinating fantasy world slowly paved into something soulless and modern, another story to explain why ideals are dumb nonsense for losers too stupid or mentally ill to think for themselves, I'd have saved myself thousands of pages.

Clearly, this series was written for your reading pleasure.  I hope you enjoy it.  Sincerely, I do.

I do and have and will again. A major part of this series is exploring oaths and their value - Honor wants nothing but the strict adherence of all oaths, believes there is no bad oath, and that keeping an oath cannot be wrong. We learn that there is quite a bit of nuance to that in the real world though and in the cosmere. I'm glad that this is represented because it makes the story feel more real than it would if everything was just black or white.

What do you have against people thinking for themselves, analyzing the situation, and making the choice that they feel is best? Do you take issue with Sigzil renouncing his oaths to save his spren?

I actually think Brandon wasn't even trying to say that ideals are dumb or anything - I think he was just opening a dialogue by showing that there is a benefit to questioning things that we think are absolute, to keeping an open mind and being willing to trailblaze instead of following the same path that everyone expects us to. I found it inspiring and enlightening. I also don't recall saying that I thought ideals were dumb nonsense for losers.... My point is that making our decisions from an internal, rational, open place is much better than making our decisions based on external pressures. When we make decisions purely because we made an oath, we aren't giving any thought to the consequences or the reasons - it's just robotic step by step.

I used to be in a high demand religion (grew up in it all my life) and that was how I lived. You make covenants, you do x, then y, then z. When I finally allowed myself to think freely and consider the truth claims I'd been taught from an objective place, my motivations changed drastically. I think it also made me a much better person as a side affect. I care more about people because I have real intentions behind each of my actions. I don't just blindly follow the motions laid out in front of me. Maybe that makes me nuanced or soulless or modern - whatever it makes me, I'm glad I am what I am, because I'm free 

Just adding one more example that came to mind because it's a scene that gets a lot of hate but one that I'm particularly passionate about: the debate scene. I think Fen made the correct and best choice as the leader of her people. She betrayed her promises and her alliance, she betrayed Jasnah, did all the things that would normally be decried as wrong. But she also put herself and her people in the best possible scenario moving forward, and even Jasnah had to admit that she would have done the same thing.

These kinds of scenarios are fascinating because we run into them in the real world. Lower stakes to be sure, but its very fun to see Brandon exploring these things and giving us great topics to discuss and questions to consider. I also loved how Jasnah reacted upon realizing her own hypocrisy and finally identifying her own blind spots. We all have them and I know that since finding some of mine (in a way that shattered my worldview of reality) has taught me to actively seek them out. I am excited to see how she progresses moving forward in the back half, and how she rebuilds. So many things to look forward to!

[Ookla she/her]

2 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Would you prefer the ideal of blind obedience and devotion to one side regardless of circumstance? Are you opposed to people folloiwng their convictions with sincerity, devoted to doing what they feel is right even though it may put them at odds with the larger movement that they have previously supported? I'm all for people getting to make their own choices, and very against people being controlled by a dictator who they are not allowed to question.

Bippy the flamespren seemed pretty happy to me. And I believe that the Sibling agreed to this change because they were able to recognize that this was a good solution. It's literally no different from riding horses or having them pull a cart. If you treat them well and meet their needs, I think it's fine. If you mistreat them and torture them then it's not cool. The Sibling's very nature would not allow them to agree to this if it wasn't an acceptable one. Protecting the spren is one of their top priorities. Adonalsium made the spren, and part of that included creating the groundwork for fabrial creation. The earlier Rosharans had a better process, one that invovled spren choosing to manifest as fabrials. This only worked with true spren (higher spren with sapience), so eventually they learned to trap the lesser spren. I see this more as a growth/progress for Navani and humans at large, as they admit that their previous process was not right. So they are changing to make it so that the spren used in fabrials are well treated. 

I do and have and will again. A major part of this series is exploring oaths and their value - Honor wants nothing but the strict adherence of all oaths, believes there is no bad oath, and that keeping an oath cannot be wrong. We learn that there is quite a bit of nuance to that in the real world though and in the cosmere. I'm glad that this is represented because it makes the story feel more real than it would if everything was just black or white.

What do you have against people thinking for themselves, analyzing the situation, and making the choice that they feel is best? Do you take issue with Sigzil renouncing his oaths to save his spren?

I actually think Brandon wasn't even trying to say that ideals are dumb or anything - I think he was just opening a dialogue by showing that there is a benefit to questioning things that we think are absolute, to keeping an open mind and being willing to trailblaze instead of following the same path that everyone expects us to. I found it inspiring and enlightening. I also don't recall saying that I thought ideals were dumb nonsense for losers.... My point is that making our decisions from an internal, rational, open place is much better than making our decisions based on external pressures. When we make decisions purely because we made an oath, we aren't giving any thought to the consequences or the reasons - it's just robotic step by step.

I used to be in a high demand religion (grew up in it all my life) and that was how I lived. You make covenants, you do x, then y, then z. When I finally allowed myself to think freely and consider the truth claims I'd been taught from an objective place, my motivations changed drastically. I think it also made me a much better person as a side affect. I care more about people because I have real intentions behind each of my actions. I don't just blindly follow the motions laid out in front of me. Maybe that makes me nuanced or soulless or modern - whatever it makes me, I'm glad I am what I am, because I'm free 

Just adding one more example that came to mind because it's a scene that gets a lot of hate but one that I'm particularly passionate about: the debate scene. I think Fen made the correct and best choice as the leader of her people. She betrayed her promises and her alliance, she betrayed Jasnah, did all the things that would normally be decried as wrong. But she also put herself and her people in the best possible scenario moving forward, and even Jasnah had to admit that she would have done the same thing.

These kinds of scenarios are fascinating because we run into them in the real world. Lower stakes to be sure, but its very fun to see Brandon exploring these things and giving us great topics to discuss and questions to consider. I also loved how Jasnah reacted upon realizing her own hypocrisy and finally identifying her own blind spots. We all have them and I know that since finding some of mine (in a way that shattered my worldview of reality) has taught me to actively seek them out. I am excited to see how she progresses moving forward in the back half, and how she rebuilds. So many things to look forward to!

I agree. And again, to go back to my earlier point: the series is not finished yet. While I don't think Brandon is going to end the series with any sort of "This is the Right Answer, listen to me" ending stance, I think he will explore what it means to make oaths, and the benefits and drawbacks of both making oaths and avoiding them, so that readers can make their own decisions. His job isn't to define a Right Answer, it's to explore ideas. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

25 minutes ago, Ookla said:

I agree. And again, to go back to my earlier point: the series is not finished yet. While I don't think Brandon is going to end the series with any sort of "This is the Right Answer, listen to me" ending stance, I think he will explore what it means to make oaths, and the benefits and drawbacks of both making oaths and avoiding them, so that readers can make their own decisions. His job isn't to define a Right Answer, it's to explore ideas. 

Yes, I love this! It's exploration of ideas and themes. The first half of the series largely explored the importance of making and keeping oaths, and has only just barely introduced the idea of there being 'good' motivations for rejecting and renouncing them as well. I am excited to see where he takes things and as you said - there will be pros and cons on each side. Which is just great for open/objective analysis and exploration. Who would have expected at the time of the scene where Dalinar and Odium were setting the original terms for the agreement that by the time they were in the contest Dalinar would be renouncing his oaths? It's so contrary to the rest of the books, and yet it fits so well due to the circumstances and motivations of all characters invovled. Fascinating.