How fast does a does a steel push fuel, the bullet travel

[Blue-phoenix186]

Question for people who are smarter than me how fast is a steel pushed fuel bullet. and how much farther would it travel? Let’s say it comes from a modern handgun. Would a steel push double the speed and the distance or do even more than that if someone could answer, that would be great thanks. also off-topic i’m really happy I found the 17th shard bc I always had these questions but I couldn’t figure out the answers  but now I can just ask them here and someone  might give me an answer give It’s great.

Edited February 9, 2025 by Blue-phoenix186

[Duxredux he/him]

There's a lot of ranges in this question, which may be why no one has touched this one. The speed of the bullet is determined by the mass of bullet, length of the gun barrel, type of gun powder, amount of gun powder, and faster modern rounds can be 3 times faster than the slowest.

Probably one of the better scenarios we have for this is Wax Pushing on bullets to give them enough force to punch through oak tables and kill the bandit using it for cover. In the scene after Wax increases his weight and Pushes with as much force as he can, the bullet "cracks" in the air, so presumably it broke mach 1 or 1125 fps (feet per second). Allomantically Pushing I don't think will be a straight multiplicative increase in speed, but probably not boost faster rounds as much since there is less time to apply force. 

That said, I am not great at these kinds of physics questions, so I asked ChatGPT.

https://chatgpt.com/share/67b0e56d-4c60-8010-9436-33a914812871

Summary, the bullet would probably have to be traveling at least 1300-1500 fps to penetrate a 1 inch oak table and hit a target with lethal force. Old West guns had bullet velocity anywhere from 850 fps to 1200 fps, so who knows how much speed Wax added. I defer to @StormingTexan and @DrPhysics as those who know more about firearms and this kind of calculation (respectively) than me. At least you may be able to say how far off ChatGPT was.

Edited February 15, 2025 by Duxredux

[DoctaDajman]

16 hours ago, Duxredux said:

There's a lot of ranges in this question, which may be why no one has touched this one. The speed of the bullet is determined by the mass of bullet, length of the gun barrel, type of gun powder, amount of gun powder, and faster modern rounds can be 3 times faster than the slowest.

Probably one of the better scenarios we have for this is Wax Pushing on bullets to give them enough force to punch through oak tables and kill the bandit using it for cover. In the scene after Wax increases his weight and Pushes with as much force as he can, the bullet "cracks" in the air, so presumably it broke mach 1 or 1125 fps (feet per second). Allomantically Pushing I don't think will be a straight multiplicative increase in speed, but probably not boost faster rounds as much since there is less time to apply force. 

That said, I am not great at these kinds of physics questions, so I asked ChatGPT.

https://chatgpt.com/share/67b0e56d-4c60-8010-9436-33a914812871

Summary, the bullet would probably have to be traveling at least 1300-1500 fps to penetrate a 1 inch oak table and hit a target with lethal force. Old West guns had bullet velocity anywhere from 850 fps to 1200 fps, so who knows how much speed Wax added. I defer to @StormingTexan and @DrPhysics as those who know more about firearms and this kind of calculation (respectively) than me. At least you may be able to say how far off ChatGPT was.

I wonder if the feat to shoot through the table was because he increased the speed so much or because he is able to effectively crank up the momentum of a bullet by putting his weight behind it as it hits. 

It has been pointed out a bunch that wooden shields are enough to stop pushed coins but coins have awful dimensions and are usually soft metals that will deform really easily against resistance. So any soft copper or gold coin is going to deform and flatten... like a hollow point not made for penetration at all. 

Now some hard cast lead or steel core bullets that are designed for penetration is a totally different game. Traveling at a faster speed can do the job for sure... but as any human sized allomancer pushing it (even if it doesn't directly increase velocity) into and through the impact you are adding all of your weight to that momentum calculation which greatly improves your penetrative power assuming your bullet is not completely flattening out on contact (the harder cast penetrative rounds will be far more useful for it with added weight too).

In Wax's case he is also a crasher who can add building levels of mass behind any given shot. 

I dont see a hollow point soft cast lead bullet penetrating that table in almost any circumstance but instead would hit it and shove it away from Wax if he continued pushing against it... Basically pancaking the guy behind it. 

So my personal opinion on the matter is that the speed of the bullet isn't the main benefit you get out of steel pushing it... the timing is nearly impossible to manage in my mind anyways... however anytime a bullet is shot, if you shove on it with some allomancy you are effectively adding your mass to the projectile at the point it makes contact and you will aid it greatly in penetrative force so long as you have a material made for such.  

Your bullet material matters a lot in this scenario. You want something that is hardened as much as possible for busting through resistance. And your goal of pushing shouldn't be Speeding up the bullet more as much as it should be pushing it at the moment of impact so that your weight helps maintain that momentum. 

[DrPhysics he/him]

On 2/8/2025 at 1:01 AM, Blue-phoenix186 said:

Question for people who are smarter than me how fast is a steel pushed fuel bullet. and how much farther would it travel?

This one has popped up before. You hit a limit of Mach 2-3.

 

As far as how.much further it can travel, if you double the speed, you would double the distance, but bullets usually hit things before they hit the ground, so that won't have as much impact as you'd think.

 

However, we do find that the faster something goes, the deeper it will penetrate into something, but the relationship is too ugly to describe exactly how much without testing it.

 

 

[Koloss17 She/They]

On 2/16/2025 at 7:53 AM, DoctaDajman said:

Your bullet material matters a lot in this scenario. You want something that is hardened as much as possible for busting through resistance. And your goal of pushing shouldn't be Speeding up the bullet more as much as it should be pushing it at the moment of impact so that your weight helps maintain that momentum. 

This is actually something one of my Alleyverse characters messed around with! They have a dual barrel pistol that can toggle between aluminum rounds and tungsten rounds, with the tungsten rounds being able to be pushed to gain punching power. The actual use of this is more for show than efficiency , as ideally to make the most of a bullet, you would have it stay in the body to cause further damage and to push the force onto the person rather than *through* the person. Something like a steelpushed tungsten bullet could shoot through walls and punch through bone, but would do less in terms of actual stopping power. However, if you’re a good shot, shooting a bullet through the wall, through the opponent’s head, and through another wall is something that could be quite effective. 

[DoctaDajman]

28 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

This is actually something one of my Alleyverse characters messed around with! They have a dual barrel pistol that can toggle between aluminum rounds and tungsten rounds, with the tungsten rounds being able to be pushed to gain punching power. The actual use of this is more for show than efficiency , as ideally to make the most of a bullet, you would have it stay in the body to cause further damage and to push the force onto the person rather than *through* the person. Something like a steelpushed tungsten bullet could shoot through walls and punch through bone, but would do less in terms of actual stopping power. However, if you’re a good shot, shooting a bullet through the wall, through the opponent’s head, and through another wall is something that could be quite effective. 

Its tough. Being an avid traditional archery fanatic who likes lobbing big heavy sharp arrows, I get to see the benefits of ramping up for maximum penetration. There is no such thing as overkill from a hunters perspective. I want a 2 inch wide wound channel that clears through the animal cleanly and an arrow stuck in the mud behind it. If done right most of them will barely know they were hit and there is hardly any tracking because they jump... run a few yards before stopping and bleeding out on the spot. 

Bullets are different, and I will add that I imagine shooting an enemy combatant is different. The arguments for or against it all are plentiful. 

I prefer to keep my shotgun loaded with birdshot in the house because I really don't want to be responsible for sending a slug into a neighbors wall... however... if an intruder was wearing a plate I would much rather have that slug and I wouldn't care about the walls at all.

In the spirit of sticking with my first opinion, that there is no such thing as overkill, I have to say that penetration, even with bullets, is super effective for killing. I always roll my eyes at shows and movies where the guy gets hit in the upper chest / shoulder area and they are all good a few scenes later... noone plays up the seriousness of sucking chest wounds and horrible hemo/pneumothorax. 

In the case of steel pushing you really really need a bullet that will not deform when it hits resistance. I'm not saying a hollow point couldnt penetrate a plate with a steel push but I just don't see it happening with the bullet being designed to expand and slow down so rapidly once it hits something. If anything you just end up getting in a pushing war with the enemy and either they, or you, goes flying right?  

Of course there are plenty of ethical arguments to be made about shooting rounds that will carry on and the backstop is an issue... but really the backstop should be an issue to think about no matter what. 

 

This is absolutely the advantage of double barrel or multiple weapons being carried though. You get to choose different loadouts and use them to the best of their abilities.