Luhel Bonds and pewter drags

[DoctaDajman]

Luhel Bonds exchange power for hydration. We understand and get that. I know there are easy synergies between thing like healing and bendalloy feruchemy but today I want to look at a synergy I hadn't thought about.

Some magics simply shrug off the signs and symptoms of fatigue and work (while being used). Although they could be doing it in far different ways. 

Looking fairly specifically at pewter drags I am curious if others think this could be used to push the luhel bond beyond its limit. 

Using Vin and Kelsiers sprint across the Final Empire we know they were traveling the pace of a horse and if any hydration breaks were taken it was completely off screen... in fact I think there might have been conversing that happened in that scene as well suggesting they weren't even really exerting themselves to a point of feeling it. The pewter had a limit but the limit didn't seem to be tied physiologically to any cardiopulmonary type of systems nor did they describe any symptoms of dehydration holding them back. Even already injured it was, start burning pewter and continue being a menace on the field. 

So my question goes on... 

Does anyone think that burning pewter could allow a luhel bond to stretch past normal limits while allowing the user to operate at high levels and buy them the time needed to rehydrate so long as the keep a steady burn rolling? Noting all of the insanity we have seen pewter sustain people through, including some hardcore hypovolemia that would certainly result in shock for non users.  

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

they were traveling the pace of a horse and if any hydration breaks were taken it was completely off screen

No breaks, they never stopped running, but drank while on-the-run (it was also how they kept swalloing pewterdust). TFE Ch 25:

Spoiler

Kelsier tossed another water jug into his pack.
<snip>

“Running?” the girl asked. “We’re not taking a canal boat?”

Kelsier frowned. “Why would we need a boat?”

Vin glanced down at the pouch, then grabbed a cup of water and began to swallow beads.

“Make sure you have enough water in that pack,” Kelsier said. “Take as much as you can carry.” He left her, walking over to lay a hand on Dockson’s shoulder. “It’s about three hours before sunset. If we push hard, we can be there by noon tomorrow.”

<snip>

She made certain to never let her pewter run low. She feared that if it ever went out, the fatigue would come upon her so powerfully that she wouldn’t be able to get started again. Kelsier also ordered her to drink a ridiculous amount of water, though she wasn’t that thirsty.

The night grew dark and silent, no travelers daring to brave the mists.

It's more likely that Pewter Dragging (which is mentioned to get easier and less dangerous with practice and repeated exposure) is connected to Overmastery and how one may strengthen their bond by dyhydrating to dangerous levels (White Sand Spoilers):

Spoiler

It's not confirmed for everyone, but it is shown that one character (with others implied) risk death or burning their power out completely by Mastering Sand until they lose conciousness. When recovered, they may be more efficient in both water usage and strength of their sand mastery. 

Likewise, we have this from Kelsier in Ch 25:

Spoiler

“Who’s there? Say the password!”

Kelsier continued walking, the light growing bright enough for him to see a spear-holding figure backlit in the corridor ahead. Vin waited in the darkness, crouching. She looked up questioningly as Kelsier passed. She seemed to have gotten over the drain of the pewter drag, for the moment. When they finally stopped to rest, however, she’d feel it.

<snip>

Footsteps approached. Kelsier looked up, wondering if he even had the strength to stand. Vin lay curled up beside his stump, asleep on the hard ground, only her mistcloak for a cushion. Their extended pewter drag had taken a lot out of the girl, and she had collapsed virtually the moment Kelsier had called a halt for the night. He wished he could do the same. However, he was far more experienced with pewter dragging than she was. His body would give out eventually, but he could keep going for a bit longer.

We also know that both the body and the spiritweb adapts to the use of Investiture, and that becoming a Savant is an extreme version of that process. WoB

Spoiler

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant.  It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Questioner

So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

[DoctaDajman]

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

No breaks, they never stopped running, but drank while on-the-run (it was also how they kept swalloing pewterdust). TFE Ch 25:

  Hide contents

Kelsier tossed another water jug into his pack.
<snip>

“Running?” the girl asked. “We’re not taking a canal boat?”

Kelsier frowned. “Why would we need a boat?”

Vin glanced down at the pouch, then grabbed a cup of water and began to swallow beads.

“Make sure you have enough water in that pack,” Kelsier said. “Take as much as you can carry.” He left her, walking over to lay a hand on Dockson’s shoulder. “It’s about three hours before sunset. If we push hard, we can be there by noon tomorrow.”

<snip>

She made certain to never let her pewter run low. She feared that if it ever went out, the fatigue would come upon her so powerfully that she wouldn’t be able to get started again. Kelsier also ordered her to drink a ridiculous amount of water, though she wasn’t that thirsty.

The night grew dark and silent, no travelers daring to brave the mists.

It's more likely that Pewter Dragging (which is mentioned to get easier and less dangerous with practice and repeated exposure) is connected to Overmastery and how one may strengthen their bond by dyhydrating to dangerous levels (White Sand Spoilers):

  Hide contents

It's not confirmed for everyone, but it is shown that one character (with others implied) risk death or burning their power out completely by Mastering Sand until they lose conciousness. When recovered, they may be more efficient in both water usage and strength of their sand mastery. 

Likewise, we have this from Kelsier in Ch 25:

  Hide contents

“Who’s there? Say the password!”

Kelsier continued walking, the light growing bright enough for him to see a spear-holding figure backlit in the corridor ahead. Vin waited in the darkness, crouching. She looked up questioningly as Kelsier passed. She seemed to have gotten over the drain of the pewter drag, for the moment. When they finally stopped to rest, however, she’d feel it.

<snip>

Footsteps approached. Kelsier looked up, wondering if he even had the strength to stand. Vin lay curled up beside his stump, asleep on the hard ground, only her mistcloak for a cushion. Their extended pewter drag had taken a lot out of the girl, and she had collapsed virtually the moment Kelsier had called a halt for the night. He wished he could do the same. However, he was far more experienced with pewter dragging than she was. His body would give out eventually, but he could keep going for a bit longer.

We also know that both the body and the spiritweb adapts to the use of Investiture, and that becoming a Savant is an extreme version of that process. WoB

  Hide contents

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant.  It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Questioner

So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

Okay. Yeah I totally misremembered that scene in Mistborn. Thanks for the correction. 

There is something correlation there and room for a pewter misting to more safely reach the overmastery limits though it seems. 

Since pewter arms often unconsciously burn pewter then someone with the Luhel Bond could likely push it to the overmastery point more often and more safely with pewter in the gut to help them recover past that?  

I kind of thought they would simply run out of hydration and die of those effects suddenly if they pushed it too hard. The way that is described makes it sound more like the bond wont let them go straight too death but get them to a point before death where they could be resusicated by a pal or whatever... 

My thoughts now are that pewter in the system not being burnt would allow a person to reach that point and get a check box towards overmastery (is this synonymous with savantism?) before passing out and the body starts burning pewter allowing you to snap out of it and rehydrate themselves. 

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I kind of thought they would simply run out of hydration and die of those effects suddenly if they pushed it too hard. The way that is described makes it sound more like the bond wont let them go straight too death but get them to a point before death where they could be resusicated by a pal or whatever... 

Most do die (and that is shown graphically in the omnibus, and explained in the story) and it is a huge risk. It was implied, but not explained that there were some mitigating measures taken before the events of the story to attempt this in a more controlled environment. 

I'm not sure a Pewterarm would be able to Master Sand (unlike Aethers, it cannot be done by just anyone - likely because it is an MoI of Autonomy and not an Aether - they just share Luhel Bond mechanics). If, somehow, a Sand master were to have access to Pewter (Hemalurgy, perhaps), then I can see that possibly helping their body deal with the effects of dehydration, or maybe help them survive a dehydration experience. However, since we do not know exactly how Overmastery works, I think (my personal guess) that it would also prevent the possible postive side effects as much as it prevents the negative side effects. 

If Overmastery comes from surviving over-straining yoru body and bond, and you prevent that strain through Pewter - then you have also prevented the Overmastery and any possible benefits it may confer. 

[DoctaDajman]

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Most do die (and that is shown graphically in the omnibus, and explained in the story) and it is a huge risk. It was implied, but not explained that there were some mitigating measures taken before the events of the story to attempt this in a more controlled environment. 

I'm not sure a Pewterarm would be able to Master Sand (unlike Aethers, it cannot be done by just anyone - likely because it is an MoI of Autonomy and not an Aether - they just share Luhel Bond mechanics). If, somehow, a Sand master were to have access to Pewter (Hemalurgy, perhaps), then I can see that possibly helping their body deal with the effects of dehydration, or maybe help them survive a dehydration experience. However, since we do not know exactly how Overmastery works, I think (my personal guess) that it would also prevent the possible postive side effects as much as it prevents the negative side effects. 

If Overmastery comes from surviving over-straining yoru body and bond, and you prevent that strain through Pewter - then you have also prevented the Overmastery and any possible benefits it may confer. 

So overmastery is not a line in the sand... you almost died and your spiritweb was effected at point X? 

I will go subscribe to the newsletter and check out White Sands so I can understand this concept more for sure. 

My thought was more to allow pewter to unconsciously save you from the dehydration after crossing the line (much like Vins pewter kicking in after eating that axe). She didn't have any control over the pewter allowing her body to try to recover and in her state of unconsciousness I think I remember the pewter burning lower and slower than normal to stabilize her for her recovery. 

I can absolutely see it negating the effects if you are consciously burning pewter to ignore some of the negative effects though. 

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Luhel Bonds exchange power for hydration. We understand and get that. I know there are easy synergies between thing like healing and bendalloy feruchemy but today I want to look at a synergy I hadn't thought about.

 

Very minor nit-pick: Per the definition presented in Tress, Luhel Bonds trade power for Physical Matter, of which Water is one example.  I only mention it because under that definition Allomancy itself sure appears to be a Power-for-Metal Luhel Bond to Preservation.  

[Treamayne]

17 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Allomancy itself sure appears to be a Power-for-Metal Luhel Bond to Preservation.

Except that Allomancy has been defined as the metallic structure being a gate (like an Aon) to allow the power of Preservation to enter the Allomancer - with the metal (shape of the gate) determining the effect. WoB

Spoiler

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

Edited January 29, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Except that Allomancy has been defined as the metallic structure beinga gate (like an Aon) to allow the power of Preservation to enter the Allomancer - with the metal (shape of the gate) determining the effect. WoB

  Reveal hidden contents

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

That's true but not incompatible with it being a Shardic Luhel Bond, unless Im missing something? The metal does a lot of the Investiture tuning but the allomancer's sDNA is doing some of it too (since purified Dor can fuel the effects for a misting with no tuning metals required, for example).  

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's true but not incompatible with it being a Shardic Luhel Bond, unless Im missing something? The metal does a lot of the Investiture tuning but the allomancer's sDNA is doing some of it too (since purified Dor can fuel the effects for a misting with no tuning metals required, for example).  

Then I am not following what you are trying to say. My understanding:

• When an Aon is drawn, the shape of the Aon (and modifiers) allows the Dor to create an effect as it moves into the Physical Realm from the Cognitive
• A Misting is able to "burn" a metal based on their sDNA
  • The Molecular structure of the burning Metal forms a pattern (like the Aon) and that pattern is the key allowing the investiture released to create an Effect as it moves into the Physical Realm from the Spiritual Realm
• A Luhel bond draws physical matter from the person (water, so far) to allow the bonded person to control something (aether/investiture) already present in the physical realm to create an effect in the physical realm.  

The bond was even described as the Bond of Physical Transition (with Nahel Bond described as the Bond of Realmic Transition).
I theorize on the Third Bond here. 

Edited January 29, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[DoctaDajman]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's true but not incompatible with it being a Shardic Luhel Bond, unless Im missing something? The metal does a lot of the Investiture tuning but the allomancer's sDNA is doing some of it too (since purified Dor can fuel the effects for a misting with no tuning metals required, for example).  

So do you suppose an allomancer could channel their burning metal to the aetherbond directly?  

Thinking in terms of stormlight we know it's can be used to fuel many different abilities... even sating Vashers divine breath. 

In this case you would have a misting or mistborn who is intimately familure with burning metal for one power already. It seems that, if the mechanics are similar that person may be able to trade off with the aether for metal. 

If Preservation was working off of the same principles then it seems like an aether who communicates with their bonded person might be able to be persuaded to accept the metal. 

This would be really interesting looking into the future. If you get allomancers mixing with whatever Twinsouls people are you may end up with some twinborn type characters with allomancy and an aetherbond (although we don't know if that bond is genetic or hereditary do we?)  

[Treamayne]

37 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

aetherbond (although we don't know if that bond is genetic or hereditary do we?)  

The Aetherbond is neither - it uses a Primal Aether Bud (similar to AoN):

Spoiler

Aetherbound are the Invested servants of the primal aethers. They are Connected to one of the twelve aethers and granted a bud of that aether’s core. The bud, at least sometimes, appears as a physical change to the body of the person that corresponds with the aether they have bonded. Unlike other bonds like between spren and Radiant, each aetherbound is not Connected to their own individual aether. Instead they are all bound to the same primal aether; for instance all roseite aetherbound have a bud from Silajana.

 

Edited January 29, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[DoctaDajman]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

The Aetherbod is neither - it uses a Primal Aether Bud (similar to AoN):

  Hide contents

Aetherbound are the Invested servants of the primal aethers. They are Connected to one of the twelve aethers and granted a bud of that aether’s core. The bud, at least sometimes, appears as a physical change to the body of the person that corresponds with the aether they have bonded. Unlike other bonds like between spren and Radiant, each aetherbound is not Connected to their own individual aether. Instead they are all bound to the same primal aether; for instance all roseite aetherbound have a bud from Silajana.

 

Spoiler

I thought it was hereditary in AoN. At least in the first chapters it seems that the 3 brothers were born with it.  I guess there is another character who has hinted at acquiring it through other means. (I will keep reading but but beg for spoilers for clarification as well).  

 

[Treamayne]

27 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

  Hide contents

I thought it was hereditary in AoN. At least in the first chapters it seems that the 3 brothers were born with it.  I guess there is another character who has hinted at acquiring it through other means. (I will keep reading but but beg for spoilers for clarification as well).  

 

Curiosity Spoilers:

Spoiler

Correct, in AoN there was an element of being Hereditary (but not as much as the main characters think in the beginning); but that is one of the main changes for Canon - nothing Heredary about it at all anymore. 

 

[DoctaDajman]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Curiosity Spoilers:

  Hide contents

Correct, in AoN there was an element of being Hereditary (but not as much as the main characters think in the beginning); but that is one of the main changes for Canon - nothing Heredary about it at all anymore. 

 

Good to know. Thanks. 

If the bond is trading physical matter for other matter I still think it should be a fairly trivial jump for an allomancer to convince the aether they may be bound to to accept that as a payment. 

If it were to get pushed to an even greater extreme, a compounder. 

The Alloy changes when stored into, but it changes in a unique way that allows the compounder to still use it and access more power. This metal wouldn't just be a key but would hold investiture in the form of an attribute. 

This person may have an even easier time convincing the aether to accept it because the metal is in part a portion of themselves. 

Hydration is a part of the person but a so is stored weight... so a compounder wouldn't just be offering generic metals they have ingested for the aethers power, but they would be offering, directly, a portion of themselves that they have stored in the metal as well and it wouldn't just be a metal acting as a key to trigger and effect. But a keyed key specifically created and connected to themselves as well. 

 

[Quantus he/him]

20 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Then I am not following what you are trying to say.

All Im saying is that I think that Peservation's magic did exactly what Autonomy's did, and copied pre-existing mechanism, specifically the Luhel Bond of the aetherbound  Where the aetherbound feed Water over a Luhel Bond to the Prime Aether in exchange for the Investiture to drive their powers, Allomancers feed metal over a similar but distinct type of Luhel Bond to gain their allomancy.  They have Preservation embedded directly in their sDNA so they dont require the physical Bud as a conduit. And Snapping is presumably involved in the Luhel Bond formation but got modified by Harmony so that's probably a whole other rabbit hole.  

20 hours ago, Treamayne said:

My understanding:

• When an Aon is drawn, the shape of the Aon (and modifiers) allows the Dor to create an effect as it moves into the Physical Realm from the Cognitive
• A Misting is able to "burn" a metal based on their sDNA
  • The Molecular structure of the burning Metal forms a pattern (like the Aon) and that pattern is the key allowing the investiture released to create an Effect as it moves into the Physical Realm from the Spiritual Realm

These are both true in most cases, but the fact that purified Dor can mimic any metal simply by being burned by a Misting shows that the metal itself is not critical to the effect/shaping process.  Im assuming it's sort of like using an Atium Spike for hemalurgy instead of a more specific metal, where it can steal anything but Intent has to supplement for the attribute affinity that the metal would normally provide. But in both of those cases it's being powered by the Physically manifested Investiture and not a Connection to Preservation the way normal mistings are.  

 

20 hours ago, Treamayne said:

• A Luhel bond draws physical matter from the person (water, so far) to allow the bonded person to control something (aether/investiture) already present in the physical realm to create an effect in the physical realm. 

That's true for the fringe case that is Sand Mastery, but the Aetherbound very much seem to be getting Investiture through the Luhel Bond to fuel their manifestations (using intend and the Bud as their focus).  And per the narration in Tress the Luhel Bond normally trades water for the effect (I always assumed via a feruchemy-esk Investiture transformation), but those Spores dont involve any bond at all (with the noted exception of the Midnight Essence that forms a "temporary bond" that is "closer to how Aethers are supposed to work" (emphasis theirs). 

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And Snapping is presumably involved in the Luhel Bond formation but got modified by Harmony so that's probably a whole other rabbit hole.  

But the Luhel bond is not shown to require Snapping in either Tress or White Sand. 

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Spores dont involve any bond at all (with the noted exception of the Midnight Essence that forms a "temporary bond" that is "closer to how Aethers are supposed to work"

Tress also shows a Bond with Verdant, so Luhel Bonds can be formed with more than just Midnight Spores. Tress Ch 46:

Spoiler

Tress found verdant aether to be almost playful, eager to respond to her mental commands in exchange for water. Over the days of study, she grew proficient at making the vines grow in spirals, to stretch tall and strong, and even to grow slowly—holding back much of their strength.

She could feel, as always, a sensation beyond the vines. Nothing so distinct as a mind. An impression. One that she thought might be the moon itself—or the always-growing maternal vines that lived upon it.

 

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

the fact that purified Dor can mimic any metal simply by being burned by a Misting shows that the metal itself is not critical to the effect/shaping process. 

it only shows that the metallic structure is not the only bounding form. Unkeyed Dor, as raw investiture, can be used for whatever your sDNA allows you to use. It's less about what is ont in the nature of the metal as proving Intent/Command, and more about how Unkeyed Dor, specifically is versitile. 

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

<edited for length and relevance>

Brandon Sanderson

If you could get a hit of Stormlight, that'd work. The problem is, Stormlight's not easy to get off of Roshar, and it still is technically keyed. You could get it a lot more easily-- Stormlight would work fairly well, but what you really want is some pure, unkeyed Dor. That stuff, you could do all kinds of things with. But, you know, it's kinda dangerous. But that's the stuff you're gonna want, or something like unto it.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Quote

Argent

I want to ask you about my favorite character, Kelsier! Which is a controversial opinion but I hold to it. In Secret History, when he steals that orb from the Ire, is that orb full of purified Dor? Is that the first time we see that?

Brandon Sanderson

That is the first time we see that.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

All Im saying is that I think that Peservation's magic did exactly what Autonomy's did, and copied pre-existing mechanism, specifically the Luhel Bond of the aetherbound  Where the aetherbound feed Water over a Luhel Bond to the Prime Aether in exchange for the Investiture to drive their powers, Allomancers feed metal over a similar but distinct type of Luhel Bond to gain their allomancy.

Interesting theory. I can see how you can derive this conclusion.