ChickenBonanza Posted January 22, 2025 Posted January 22, 2025 (edited) That’s right, only one man has to die for your sick, twisted obsession with the abilities of a long dead historical figure. He would be disappointed in you, honestly. Not nearly enough bodies. Alright, alright: here’s the gist. You’re sitting canalside in Elendel. Thinking about all those people blessed by Harmony himself to eat rocks and bling themselves out. You’re a man down on his luck. All that’s left is this rod of bendalloy in your pocket, and what could a schmutz like you do with something like that? So you’re sitting there, spinning this gray stick between your fingers like you’ve regressed back primary. Then this Terris gent walks back. He’s got shiny bits and pieces flowing down his limbs and all jammed up in various facial extremities. It’s obvious; he’s got somethin’ you’ve always longed for. Only one thing to do, really. So now you’ve got yourself a Hemalurgic spike. A small piece of the powers of creation stuck inside—a Soulbearer, that’s what he was. Those things all about him were genu-ine nic-ro-sil-minds. That guy was too proud to be trusted with a power like that anyway. Even apparently useless on its pure lonesome as it is. Well then, you’re thinking, how has my situation changed? Stuck with the Ferring’s equivalent of a Gnat. But, hey, you ain’t gotta stop here. Yeah. You could do something with this. Harmony said nothing good could come of wanton Hemalurgy but you’re not all that concerned with all that right now. You call in a few favors. A lot of favors. Some railworker gives you a little tip and now you got all the metal you could ever need. And then, you start paying off some Metalborn. All they gotta do is an endure a little stabbing and then you’ll send them on their way. First guy you bring in is a Trueself; Aluminum Ferring. He’s the one you gotta start with. The spike goes in his arm—not too far, if you want ‘em to survive the removal—and you hand him a chunk of aluminum and two hefty chunks of nicrosil. You’ve been dreaming of this stuff your whole life; of course you know what you gotta do. That Trueself becomes the first to receive your bendalloy spike’s stolen ability. In the aluminummind goes his Identity. To one nicrosilmind: the ability of a Trueself, to store your Identity in aluminum. To the second: the ability of a Soulbearer, to store the ability to use your Inves—er—Metallic Arts. Those two nicrosilminds? They’re what you call unkeyed metalminds. The state they’re in, any Soulbearer would able to draw out the powers within. And that’s all you need from the Trueself. Take back the spike, call in your next Metalborn. Gal’s a Coinshot. After her, you’ll only have twenty-nine more to go. For this lass, you’ll begin the routine you’ll use for the rest of your Fullborn suite. A chunk of aluminum, a chunk of nicrosil, spike goes in the arm. Give her the nicrosilmind that the Trueself made. She draws out the stored ability of a Trueself, and uses that to store her Identity. Once that’s done, she stores her own ability of Allomantic steel in its own nicrosil. Take back the spike, that’s all you need from her. Next Metalborn comes in. They’re a Lurcher. And so it goes down the line. End result? You got thirty-two unkeyed nicrosilminds. To access them, all you gotta do is spike yourself. Now, you might be thinking, ‘Hey, the conners’re after me cuz I killed that dude, and those nicrosilminds ain’t have enough to last me forever.’ To which I call you a drunken idjit. You’re a Fullborn now. Compound. All those abilities stored up in that there nicrosil? Compounding gives you all you an infinite amount. Just be sure to renew your stockpile whenever you start to run out. And if you’re thinking some hotshot hero is gonna tear out your spike like the Ascendant Warrior to the Lord Ruler, you have a contingency. In that case, do not let the power go. As long as you absorb the ability of a Soulbearer from your nicrosilminds and never for a moment stop, it’ll be like you never lost the spike in the first place. In fact, I raise you! You heard it here first, wield the powers of the Lord Ruler’s Bands of Mourning without a single Hemalurgic spike! It’s free! Edited January 22, 2025 by ChickenBonanza 6
alder24 Posted January 22, 2025 Posted January 22, 2025 Sounds cool, it might work, we don't actually know how F-nicrosil works. But there is one single thing that will prevent this whole idea from working - identity contamination stops Hemalurgic compounding. While you made sure to convince every "volunteer" to store their identity, the Ferring you've spiked didn't do this, thus his spike is contaminated with his identity (there might be something more to it, once more we don't know). You can't compound, you can't multiply your storages, you will be a Fullborn only for as long as all those "volunteers" stored their powers for - a few minutes/hours or so (if F-nicrosil works like all other metalminds). Not a long time. We also don't know if you can store powers held by a spike inside a Nicrosilmind, because technically they are not a part of your Spirit Web, they are wired into it but they are investing a spike. But what is stopping all those Metalborns from using their powers to kill you and claim your spike and metalminds for themselves? What's stopping them from refusing to cooperate? This idea might work on paper, but in practice it will fall apart. 3
Quantus he/him Posted January 22, 2025 Posted January 22, 2025 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Sounds cool, it might work, we don't actually know how F-nicrosil works. But there is one single thing that will prevent this whole idea from working - identity contamination stops Hemalurgic compounding. While you made sure to convince every "volunteer" to store their identity, the Ferring you've spiked didn't do this, thus his spike is contaminated with his identity (there might be something more to it, once more we don't know). You can't compound, you can't multiply your storages, you will be a Fullborn only for as long as all those "volunteers" stored their powers for - a few minutes/hours or so (if F-nicrosil works like all other metalminds). Not a long time. We also don't know if you can store powers held by a spike inside a Nicrosilmind, because technically they are not a part of your Spirit Web, they are wired into it but they are investing a spike. But what is stopping all those Metalborns from using their powers to kill you and claim your spike and metalminds for themselves? What's stopping them from refusing to cooperate? This idea might work on paper, but in practice it will fall apart. I recall them confirming this in TLM but I dont remember if we got any details? Logically if the OP's user were to actively Blank their own identity any time they used the stores, then the only Identity left in the equation would be the original spiked Ferring's so there'd be no source of contamination.
alder24 Posted January 22, 2025 Posted January 22, 2025 2 minutes ago, Quantus said: I recall them confirming this in TLM but I dont remember if we got any details? Logically if the OP's user were to actively Blank their own identity any time they used the stores, then the only Identity left in the equation would be the original spiked Ferring's so there'd be no source of contamination. We have no details, but I think even a slight mismatch between Identities will prevent compounding. For example you can't unkeyed yourself and use a keyed metalmind, so I think if there is a mismatch between the identity of the Allomantic power and the Feruchemical power you can't compound. Either it's all yours, or all blank. TLM ch 28: Quote “This is extremely dangerous. So far, I do not believe they’ve learned the secret to Compounding via Hemalurgy. Identity contamination prevents it; that is our only saving grace. If they could do that … or, Lord Ruler … if they get atium, or lerasium…” 2
ChickenBonanza Posted January 23, 2025 Author Posted January 23, 2025 Unfortunately, our knowledge of the specifics of Identity contamination is extremely limited, included the reasons for which it prevents Compounding. Another deathly blow we must take are the small sample size of Compounders we have seen in action. Let us take the case of Miles Dagouter. When he Compounds gold, he draws from his natural abilities as an Augur and Bloodmaker to burn metalminds he has created himself. Here, no Identity contamination is impossible and irrelevant, as all components are drawn from the same source. The Lord Ruler’s case is the same. Marsh’s is one I wish we knew more about, as his own abilities arise from Compounding. Was this a problem he had to deal with? Did Harmony integrate those spikes cleanly into his soul? Did he overcome the issue himself? Alas, we do not yet know. Either way, let us review what we ourselves have done. In our case, there are a few sources of potential Identity contamination. One is through the Soulbearer we killed to make the Feruchemical nicrosil-granting spike, containing traces of that Soulbearer’s Identity. Any nicrosilminds we create with be a fusion of our own and that Soulbearer’s Identity. The second source is through our various nicrosilminds, full of donated Metallic Arts. In this case, the blanking of Identity through Trueself ability before creation means each of these nicrosilminds come with no Identity attached. This may seem like a boon, but may also serve to prevent proper Compounding, as we will soon discuss. The last source of Identity contamination is through ourselves. When tapping our nicrosilminds for various Metallic Arts, and when filling other metalminds. Here, any Allomantic ability we draw and use, while initially blanked of Identity, mixes with our own Identity with use. Similarly, any metalmind with fill with borrowed Feruchemical powers creates a metalmind that is also diluted. While I loath to say such a thing, let us assume all of these things are true and prevent Compounding through principles of Identity contamination. In Miles Dagouter’s case, Compounding occurs when all components—metalmind, Allomantic ability, and Feruchemical ability—are absolutely uniform in their respective Identities. Let us assume that Compounding can only occur under this specific circumstance, which we have concrete evidence for. 10 hours ago, alder24 said: We have no details, but I think even a slight mismatch between Identities will prevent compounding. For example you can't unkeyed yourself and use a keyed metalmind, so I think if there is a mismatch between the identity of the Allomantic power and the Feruchemical power you can't compound. Either it's all yours, or all blank. Precisely so, gentlemen. That may very well be the case. I’d bet it to be the most likely one, in fact. So how do we solve these mismatches? In the creation of our Hemalurgic spike, a potential solution would be if our donor Soulbearer had blanked their own Identity prior to creation of the spike. This could be achieved through a separate spike granting Feruchemical Aluminum, an unsealed metalmind, our donor being a full Feruchemist, what have you. The result being a spike uncontaminated of all Identity. Hopefully. The nicrosilminds we created with our original method are already blanked of Identity, so all’s good there. To erase our own Identity, we might easily use our stolen/borrowed nicrosilmind containing the ability of a Trueself to subsequently fill an aluminummind containing our own Identity. 10 hours ago, Quantus said: Logically if the OP's user were to actively Blank their own identity any time they used the stores, then the only Identity left in the equation would be the original spiked Ferring's so there'd be no source of contamination. Precisely. Theoretically, we could keep our Hemalurgic spike in its original tainted state, and uniformly coat this Identity through all of our components through blanking our Identity followed by cycling our nicrosilminds’ various powers through ourselves and back into Nicrosil to introduce that Identity. Alternatively, we could forgo eliminating our own Identity if we eliminate the donor Soulbearer’s, as we have done this time around. Let us still do so be safe; blank Identities all around. So. A review. The original run included conflicting Identities primarily sourced from the contaminated Hemalurgic spike, resulting in powers tapped from unkeyed nicrosilminds to become tainted with the donor’s Identity. While this might create a uniformity in the Invested abilities we would then hold, it is not uniform with the blanked Identity of the nicrosilminds that we must burn for power. Unless we cycled that power through ourselves to contaminate it beforehand. (Would it, then, not still work? Identity would be contaminated in the same manner in all components. Hmm. That was an unexpected line of thought. I am sure this is wrong somehow. Alas. Please do correct wherever I am wrong.) In this updated case, Identity uniformity is achieved through the lack of Identity in all components. The spike bears none, the nicrosilminds bear none, and we bear none through tapping the ability to use Feruchemical Aluminum and storing our own. All stages bear the same Identity, Compounding! 12 hours ago, alder24 said: We also don't know if you can store powers held by a spike inside a Nicrosilmind, because technically they are not a part of your Spirit Web, they are wired into it but they are investing a spike. To this, we have no answer. Maybe. Unless burning a spike Allomantically permanently grafts it to your soul utterly seamlessly and not any of the other horrible things that probably will happen in place of that idyllic outcome. 1
alder24 Posted January 23, 2025 Posted January 23, 2025 11 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said: Marsh’s is one I wish we knew more about, as his own abilities arise from Compounding. Was this a problem he had to deal with? Did Harmony integrate those spikes cleanly into his soul? Did he overcome the issue himself? Alas, we do not yet know. TLM Ars Arcanum hinted this problem affects only modern spikes - spikes made and received before Catacendre aren't affected by Identity Contamination. Marsh can compound. Quote I can confirm, as best as it can be attested, that he is fully capable of Compounding to expand his life. [...] And, most key, Compounding seems beyond the abilities of any Hemalurgist created in this more modern era. 12 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said: Unless we cycled that power through ourselves to contaminate it beforehand. (Would it, then, not still work? Identity would be contaminated in the same manner in all components. Hmm. That was an unexpected line of thought. I am sure this is wrong somehow. Alas. Please do correct wherever I am wrong.) This shouldn't work. Identity inside of a spike remains the same all the time, you can't contaminate it with another identity as far as we know. You can't even reuse a spike which already has a Hemalurgic charge and steal something else with it from another donor because mismatched identities would prevent it (but you can use it on the same donor again, if he survives). Spoiler yulerule Can you reuse a spike? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound. yulerule Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change? Brandon Sanderson Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity-- yulerule So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again? Brandon Sanderson Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) Yes, the simplest solution in your case is to make sure the Soulbearer is blanked out of his Identity before spiking him and to always blank your own identity while using unkeyed metalminds. Theoretically it's not that hard (as far as we know and we know very little about this, there might be something we are missing here), but good luck convincing 32 people to blank their identities before you rob or kill them. 12 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said: To this, we have no answer. Maybe. Unless burning a spike Allomantically permanently grafts it to your soul utterly seamlessly and not any of the other horrible things that probably will happen in place of that idyllic outcome. Well, one WoB did say burning a spike splices your Spiritual DNA with the sDNA inside the spike, but others said it wouldn't graft its power and it's almost impossible to burn a Hemalurgic spike because it is a very painful process, which would knock you unconscious. And of course, identities must match. In the end we don't know what it does and we have conflicting WoBs about this. Spoiler Maru Nui What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike? Brandon Sanderson Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences. Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011) Spoiler Questioner If you burn a Hemalurgic spike, would it graft the piece of stolen soul onto your soul? Brandon Sanderson No, but it would have... There are some interesting effects there. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) Spoiler 17th Shard Can you burn the spikes? Like, Allomantically? For example, could they burn the steel in their head spikes? Brandon Sanderson I considered that and I eventually decided that they could, but it would be an excruciating process that would probably knock them unconscious simply by doing it. 17th Shard Would they be able to tap? Brandon Sanderson Would they tap them? They can use them as metalminds, yes. 17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010) Spoiler Czanos Would anything interesting happen if an Allomancer Burned a Hemalurgic spike, or a Feruchemist Tapped one? Brandon Sanderson Er, well, it’s possible. But you’d have to be burning a Hemalurgic spike that killed you and took your power… Just like you can’t gain anything by burning a metalmind unless you infused it yourself. #tweettheauthor 2009 (July 8, 2009) 1
ChickenBonanza Posted January 23, 2025 Author Posted January 23, 2025 (edited) 2 hours ago, alder24 said: spikes made and received before Catacendre aren't affected by Identity Contamination. The system is rigged for guys like us, who have to fight for what we have. What, some god gives this guy powers and he ain’t even got to put in the effort to make ‘em work? 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Identity inside of a spike remains the same all the time, you can't contaminate it with another identity as far as we know. Apologies, that was not my intention. Would not power drawn and held be tainted by Identity—by both our natural Identity and that of the spike we used in drawing that power? By storing that power back inside a nicrosilmind before it’s full consumption, theoretically that would tie that Investiture to some combination of the two. Unless such an action is impossible. Is transferring power between metalminds impossible? Does not tapping and storing inadvertently achieve that by adding to attributes of the self before their immediate atrophy? It should be, I think. A side note, this theory was borne in my mind prior to release of The Lost Metal and it was in error that I shared the concept without proper refinement and refreshment of relevant WoBs. (Pride bids me to say I know those Hemalurgy ones, though they were disregarded in the face of idle comedic thought.) Edited January 23, 2025 by ChickenBonanza
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