Is Jasnah Alethi?

[Zrogezrg]

Can somebody explain to me why after losing the "debate", Jasnah has not even thought about taking Thaylena by military force? 

 

From what I understand, she had largest force in the city, could get more troops if needed via Oathgate, she herself was immune to assasination as 4th oath radiant. As far as I know, there are no issues with her oaths that should forbid it.
 

She is the person that prepar/considered to:

• assasinate other leaders (even her sister in law, as we were reminded)
• murder all singers so that fused would not have bodies to inhabit 
• murder Heralds so that they stop Fused from coming

The only resolution to this issue I managed to come up with is that Wit is so witty because he sucks all the wit from people he sleeps with

[Raven Wilder]

We don't know what all the Elsecaller Ideals are. Since Jasnah agreed to the debate and to let Fen decide, going back on that and trying to seize Thaylen City by force could be an oath shattering situation.

[Leuthie]

Odium instantly let Jasnah know that he was already prepared to assassinate every Thaylan City leader and take the city by force if Fen hadn't agreed to his terms. Losing the debate was the best outcome for Jasnah and Thaylan City, ultimately.

Also, Jasnah assassinating Thaylan City leadership herself and holding the City in the name of Alethkar would only serve Odium in the end. 

Allowing Odium 10 days to convince the world's leadership to hand control to him was the issue. God created the world in 7 days. Taking over a few kingdoms is child's play.

[coolsnow7]

45 minutes ago, Raven Wilder said:

We don't know what all the Elsecaller Ideals are. Since Jasnah agreed to the debate and to let Fen decide, going back on that and trying to seize Thaylen City by force could be an oath shattering situation.

I’m not sold by this explanation because we do quite literally have her viewpoint on these events. If that was the problem, we would have heard her say so.

[RedBlue]

1 hour ago, Zrogezrg said:

Can somebody explain to me why after losing the "debate", Jasnah has not even thought about taking Thaylena by military force? 

Because conquest was never the goal.

Jasnah set out to defend an ally from Odium. She failed to do that. Taking Thaylenah by force would not have solved the problem, because the ally is still lost.

And, in the hypothetical scenario that Jasnah uses her own troops to successfully take and hold Thaylenah by force, what happens next? How do you ensure Thaylenah is politically stable in the aftermath? An unpredictable ally is a liability when you’re counting on the entire coalition not to break the peace by initiating hostilities against Odium’s territory.

Also, I don’t think Jasnah would consider the conquest to be morally sound, given her political philosophy.

[AlmightyGir]

51 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Also, Jasnah assassinating Thaylan City leadership herself and holding the City in the name of Alethkar would only serve Odium in the end. 

Allowing Odium 10 days to convince the world's leadership to hand control to him was the issue. God created the world in 7 days. Taking over a few kingdoms is child's play.

Odium already controlled (and Jasnah/Queen Fen knew this as well) the other nations. Thaylena was the only non-militarily contested nation left for him to approach by the time the debate took place. Alethkar holding more territory would have benefitted her greatly, especially a major port city that Odium was bound (at that point) to not be allowed to attack after the showdown.

Edited January 10, 2025 by AlmightyGir

[Leuthie]

Just now, AlmightyGir said:

Odium already controlled (and Jasnah/Queen Fen knew this as well) the other nations. Thaylena was the only non-militarily contested nation left for him to approach by the time the debate took place. Alethkar holding more territory would have benefitted her greatly, especially a major port city that Odium was bound (at that point) to not be allowed to attack after the showdown.

After the contest, trying to hold a detached nation where the populace hates you for killing their leaders would have suited Odium just fine. 

[Zrogezrg]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

God created the world in 7 days.

This is from some other fictional story right?

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Also, Jasnah assassinating Thaylan City leadership herself and holding the City in the name of Alethkar would only serve Odium in the end. 

If so, why is radiant coalition fighting Odium if doing thing by force is only serving Odium? Is sending troops to Herdaz any different?

 

25 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

After the contest, trying to hold a detached nation where the populace hates you for killing their leaders would have suited Odium just fine. 

The nation became detached after the contest, when the oathgates stopped working so it can not be taken as argument Jasnah could have taken into account.  I am not sure about populace loving being on Odium side either.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/10/2025 at 5:27 PM, Zrogezrg said:

Can somebody explain to me why after losing the "debate", Jasnah has not even thought about taking Thaylena by military force? 

 

From what I understand, she had largest force in the city, could get more troops if needed via Oathgate, she herself was immune to assasination as 4th oath radiant. As far as I know, there are no issues with her oaths that should forbid it.

It would have lost her all other allies. In fact she'd have no guarantee that she wouldn't face a revolt among the Radiants, some of whom are Thaylen, if she tried it. Nobody would ever make a treaty with her or Alethkar. All the old prejudices about the Knights Radiant would have rematerialized.

[RedBlue]

On 1/10/2025 at 7:23 PM, Zrogezrg said:

The nation became detached after the contest, when the oathgates stopped working so it can not be taken as argument Jasnah could have taken into account.  I am not sure about populace loving being on Odium side either.

The issue here is how Jasnah would keep control of Thaylenah after taking it by force. It’s not possible, regardless of the situation with the Oathgates. She does not have the resources to hold a newly conquered territory, not to mention the damage this would do to her credibility as a leader back home. 

The populace’s opinion of Odium doesn’t matter to Jasnah’s decision. If Thaylens cause trouble for Odium, that’s his problem. If Jasnah had taken over, the Thaylens would have caused problems for Jasnah, and that would have been her problem. Especially if Thaylen rebels had attacked a nearby Odium-affiliated territory and restarted the whole conflict.

Attempting to control Thaylenah by force is just not worth it from Jasnah’s perspective.

[bmcclure7]

On 1/10/2025 at 10:52 AM, Raven Wilder said:

We don't know what all the Elsecaller Ideals are. Since Jasnah agreed to the debate and to let Fen decide, going back on that and trying to seize Thaylen City by force could be an oath shattering situation.

We do actually there ideals are more like goal, or great deeds that they swear to accomplish 

[Forts Board]

On 1/11/2025 at 3:26 AM, Leuthie said:

Allowing Odium 10 days to convince the world's leadership to hand control to him was the issue. God created the world in 7 days. Taking over a few kingdoms is child's play.

Yes, but God and Odium are not on the same powerlevel

[bmcclure7]

On 1/10/2025 at 10:27 AM, Zrogezrg said:

Can somebody explain to me why after losing the "debate", Jasnah has not even thought about taking Thaylena by military force? 

 

From what I understand, she had largest force in the city, could get more troops if needed via Oathgate, she herself was immune to assasination as 4th oath radiant. As far as I know, there are no issues with her oaths that should forbid it.
 

She is the person that prepar/considered to:

• assasinate other leaders (even her sister in law, as we were reminded)
• murder all singers so that fused would not have bodies to inhabit 
• murder Heralds so that they stop Fused from coming

The only resolution to this issue I managed to come up with is that Wit is so witty because he sucks all the wit from people he sleeps with

 

I actually think this is why odium revealed his plan to take the city by force the fact that he had hidden fused hiding in the ferry foundations of the city. He wanted to corner her show her that even if she managed to take the city by force, he would just take it back. Any plan she Could you plant you would make he was a step ahead.

 

Additionally, she was seeing her entire world view come apart in front of her, which was probably somewhat distracting