Steel Speedster ♂ Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 (edited) We have this WoB: Quote Questioner Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are not held by their original Vessel? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018) This was before RoW, so at this time, we hadn't seen any Ascensions outside of Scadrial. Now that we know all the Shards I was wondering if we could figure out which ones this WoB might be referring to. Dominion: Aona and Skai were killed a fairly short time after the Shattering, and obviously, there have been no holders of either Shard since then. Devotion: (same as Dominion) Preservation: Preservation is one of the Shards already excluded by the WoB. Ruin: (same as Preservation) Odium: At the time of the WoB, Rayse was still the vessel of Odium, and we know that he was the original vessel. Honor: (same as Odium) Cultivation: Koravellium Avast was the original vessel and still holds the Shard. Endowment: According to the Coppermind, Edgli was the original vessel of Endowment, but I can't find any citations that specifically say so, so potentially she is not. However, her familiarity with Hoid would suggest that they knew each other prior to the Shattering. Autonomy: We have a WoB stating that Bavadin is the original holder. (See below.) Ambition: Uli Da was a Sho Del, a species from Yolen, and was killed early on, which basically confirms her to have been the only holder. Invention: We know from Tanavast's POV that Chan Ko Sar was the original vessel of Invention. Technically, however, we have no confirmation that this person is still the vessel. On the other hand, it seems that Invention may not have really settled anywhere, which would reduce the chances for any change of vessel to have taken place. Mercy: One of the few Shards we don't even know the vessel's name. However, we do know that Mercy was involved in the clash between Odium and Ambition, and Sazed's letter would seem to imply that this is the same vessesl. Valor: Sazed's letter seems to imply that Hoid is familiar with the vessel of Valor. Additionally, from Tanavast's POV, we know that the original vessel was Medelantorius, a dragon, which leads me to wonder if the dragon referred to in this WoB and the Shard referred to in this WoB are the same person... Whimsy: One of the Shards we don't even know the vessel's name. In fact, we know basically nothing. Virtuosity: Virtuosity splintered herself. I don't think we know when this happened, so there was potentially enough time for a change of vessel, but we also know that she didn't stay in one place long, which, as for Invention, would reduce the chances of that. Reason: We know that this Shard has been hiding for a long time, so, assuming that that strategy has been working well, it seems reasonable to assume that Euridrius is still the vessel. In conclusion, I think Whimsy is a fairly likely candidate, mainly because we know so little about that Shard. Invention and Viruosity are possibilities too. Spoiler Quote Questioner What is your favorite original Shardholder? Brandon Sanderson My favorite original Shardholder? I don't knoooowwww... Questioner Are they all that bad of people? Brandon Sanderson No no, they're not bad-- they're not all bad people. Many of them are-- you know the trick is I'm gonna have to really write them, as their personalities. Because right now they're really just concepts, and I haven't written very many of them. And so... I'm very fond of Bavadin, but I can't say. Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014) Edited January 8, 2025 by Steel Speedster
MagicMaggot Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 7 minutes ago, Steel Speedster said: We have this WoB: Quote Questioner Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are not held by their original Vessel? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018) Just going by the language here, but wouldn't "dead" shards already qualify for a yes, since they aren't held by anyone, much less their original holder? Else I'd be very interested to learn how the shards would have passed. Odium as a divine serial murderer left an obvious trail, with his least spectacular kill being Honor in the 3-way-cagematch they had going there. And Wit didn't seem to know about any vessel willingly giving up power before Vin. So if there was some transition it would have been less violent than Odium's actions, and not voluntary by a vessel Wit kept tabs on. I guess especially with someone like Whimsy it might have been hard to even notice the change of vessel? So that would still be my best bet, if it happened. Or was there already such a thing as deicide by mortals, or death by "accident"? I guess if I had to bet on a shard accidentally killing themselves I'd have to go with Invention, by concept alone. Though I'd still expect that to be a somewhat "loud" ending, so I'm still not convinced it would have gone under the radar. 2
TheoreticalMagic Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 I agree with most of your reasoning, Steel Speedster, but would like to raise the caveat that plans might have changed since Brandon first said this in 2018. Specifically I'm thinking of Virtuosity....IMO there's a possibility Brandon never planned for Virtuosity (the Shard) to be a particularly major player and so by the time he wrote Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, the backstory/fate of Virtuosity per that book could have changed to some degree. Theoretically, when he answered this question he COULD have been intending some storyline featuring a change of Vessels for Virtuosity before ultimately deciding to just have the Shard be Splintered by the time we actually got it referenced onscreen. Just throwing that out there to cover all our bases here. I think Endowment's tenses in her letter to Hoid strongly suggest Medelantorius is still the holder of Valor, and I also agree with your logic about Mercy. I had the thought that technically Mercy could have changed hands BEFORE the conflict with Ambition, but I think that's unlikely. The fates of Ambition, Devotion and Dominion seem to be the first big upset to the status quo of the Shards post Shattering, and the other Vessels' reactions to what Rayse did to Aona, Skai and Uli Da would feel off if Mercy had already lost its original Vessel. So I do think that Whimsy's the most likely choice for a Shard with a different Vessel, with Invention being a possible runner-up. But to throw out one final possibility, while I agree with your logic about Reason, I think its worth noting that this book makes a big point to stress the difference between power and Vessel. If the POWER of Reason is what felt strongly about just hiding and surviving - and in fact had to be persuaded over time to change its mind on that being the best course of action - then given how little anyone seems to know anything about Reason post-Shattering, in theory the power could have abandoned Euridrius at some point in the past, specifically because it felt Euridrius was acting unReasonably and putting the power itself in jeopardy with an intended course of action....and then promptly found a Vessel more accommodating to the power's desire to stay out of sight for as long as possible, with none of the other Shards any the wiser. But again, I do agree that Whimsy's the best bet here, if I had to pick just one. 1
Steel Speedster ♂ Posted January 8, 2025 Author Posted January 8, 2025 Just now, MagicMaggot said: Just going by the language here, but wouldn't "dead" shards already qualify for a yes, since they aren't held by anyone, much less their original holder? Else I'd be very interested to learn how the shards would have passed. Odium as a divine serial murderer left an obvious trail, with his least spectacular kill being Honor in the 3-way-cagematch they had going there. And Wit didn't seem to know about any vessel willingly giving up power before Vin. So if there was some transition it would have been less violent than Odium's actions, and not voluntary by a vessel Wit kept tabs on. I guess especially with someone like Whimsy it might have been hard to even notice the change of vessel? So that would still be my best bet, if it happened. Or was there already such a thing as deicide by mortals, or death by "accident"? I guess if I had to bet on a shard accidentally killing themselves I'd have to go with Invention, by concept alone. Though I'd still expect that to be a somewhat "loud" ending, so I'm still not convinced it would have gone under the radar. Hmmm. Yes, I suppose that technically they would qualify. That would be a bit of a sneaky answer, but that's not unheard of for Brandon. 2 minutes ago, TheoreticalMagic said: But to throw out one final possibility, while I agree with your logic about Reason, I think its worth noting that this book makes a big point to stress the difference between power and Vessel. If the POWER of Reason is what felt strongly about just hiding and surviving - and in fact had to be persuaded over time to change its mind on that being the best course of action - then given how little anyone seems to know anything about Reason post-Shattering, in theory the power could have abandoned Euridrius at some point in the past, specifically because it felt Euridrius was acting unReasonably and putting the power itself in jeopardy with an intended course of action....and then promptly found a Vessel more accommodating to the power's desire to stay out of sight for as long as possible, with none of the other Shards any the wiser. It's possible, but if Reason had ejected its vessel, it seems like it would be difficult to go about finding a replacement while still staying under the radar.
TheoreticalMagic Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Steel Speedster said: Hmmm. Yes, I suppose that technically they would qualify. That would be a bit of a sneaky answer, but that's not unheard of for Brandon. It's possible, but if Reason had ejected its vessel, it seems like it would be difficult to go about finding a replacement while still staying under the radar. True, unless the power of Reason by its very nature is better suited than most Shards to take advantage of a presented opportunity to leave a current Vessel for a nearby alternative it considers a more preferable holder, or something along those lines. To be clear, I'm not arguing that I think this is likely or that I do think Reason has changed hands at some point, I just mean to point out that I'm sure Brandon could come up with a plausible way in which it might have happened and the sheer lack of knowledge anyone seems have about Reason's activities for 10,000 years allows for possibilities there. Again, this is more just in the interests of being thorough (or pedantic, heh). Edited January 8, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic 1
Treamayne Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Steel Speedster said: Endowment: According to the Coppermind, Edgli was the original vessel of Endowment, but I can't find any citations that specifically say so WaT Ch 56 Epigraph confirms: Spoiler Quote I have kept my part of the bargain, and will not be budged. I have stayed upon my land, bringing blessings to the people of Nalthis—gifting them the power of gods, as I was so long denied. I do not repeat the mistakes of the past. If she was part of the bargain to only have 1 shard per system, she has to be the original vessel. Wonder how she was denied creating Nalthis for so long (or if she was denied elsewhere and created Nalthis to circumvent whatever was stopping her). 22 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said: Just going by the language here, but wouldn't "dead" shards already qualify for a yes, since they aren't held by anyone, much less their original holder? Concur that this is the most likely interpretation, going by other questiosn Brandon has confirmed he dodged. Edited January 8, 2025 by Treamayne Expand/SPAG 1
TheoreticalMagic Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Treamayne said: WaT Ch 56 Epigraph confirms: Hide contents If she was part of the bargain to only have 1 shard per system, she has to be the original vessel. Wonder how she was denied creating Nalthis for so long (or if she was denied elsewhere and created Nalthis to circumvent whatever was stopping her). Spoiler Bit of a tangent, but my interpretation of that line was Edgli was implying the power of the gods had long been denied her....as in pre-Shattering, perhaps. And that's why she's so intent on making sure everyone on Nalthis has the potential to wield power and do magic. From what I recall of Yolen's magic systems, what little we know suggests it might have been more like Scadrial....not everyone was born with the power to access the magic system or utilize Investiture, and I suspect that may have been the case with Edgli, and she's still nursing some bitterness about that. Edited January 8, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic 1
RedBlue Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 1 hour ago, Steel Speedster said: Questioner Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are not held by their original Vessel? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018) In addition to the already ‘dead’ Shards, couldn’t this apply to Honor? At the time of the WoB, Tanavast was long dead and Honor was being held by a nascent emergent consciousness. That wasn’t in the books at the time, but there’s no way it wasn’t in the series outline. 3
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