Just how impressive is the Blackthorn, really?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I preface this post by saying I love Dalinar. As a former soldier I can confidently say that he'd be a commander I could fight for.  That being said, I cannot see why Blackthorn would be so sought out, such a valuable piece in the war for the greater Cosmere. 

I get the pros of having him for a commander. He was strong, charismatic, had an iron will and was absolutely ruthless. However, the man TR grabbed, at that point in Dalinar's history, could be seen as nothing but a liability at worst and an attack dog on a leash at best. And really, in a future war with future tech I'm not sure how effective he can even be.  

Hell, even his good points can be questioned. For strength, that matters a little less when you got bullets and bombs to deal with. For charisma, kinda hard to follow a guy who loses control and kills allies. The iron will is great and all, but that's going to be hard to project when your army is millions strong. He does have a good eye for personnel which helps, but nobody can pick right all the time. Lastly, ruthlessness. The most ruthless thing he ever did was at the Rift and he was already trying to walk that back even before the job was done. 

I think everyone in the story bought the reputation of the Blackthorn and judged based off of that. It's a mistake, one that TR should not be making. He has the Spiritual Realm tapes, he should know the real deal about who he got to run his military campaign. He should not have picked a mad dog whose reputation doesn't extend past Roshar. A mad dog that is just as likely to turn on the guy who holds his leash. Old Dalinar? The guy we got running the Shattered Plains campaign? The guy who brute forced a coalition out of spare parts? The guy who forced a God to the negotiating table? Absolutely. He'd be an awesome guy to hand off overall command of your war across the stars. But not the guy who torched the Rift. Someone tell me if I'm misreading this.

 

[Ripheus23]

Would the Blackthorn-Shadow be able to fill a sort of "inverse neo-Kelsier" role without being crystal-spiked like Vyre, though? I wonder if he won't be used more for Cognitive/Spiritual purposes than Physical ones. Retribution doesn't seem to need more generals for Roshar, he thinks he's smarter about almost everything than Dalinar was anyway, yeah? So even for the wider cosmere war, why bring in this ghost?

I mean, there could be utility to it, but I'm not sure whether Taravangian, especially now as Retribution, and in the face of the ominous danger of the other Shards, is going to see the Blackthorn as the ultimate emblem of his wider ideals and intents. Does he think that Dalinar-of-old would be good at dueling not just with other armies but a host of other Shards?

I personally want to see a scene where Navani awakens after a long time, so she's more or less the only one in a normal position to not know that Dalinar died when Retribution Ascended, and so Retribution uses the manifestation of the Blackthorn to (try to) manipulate her, if only for a moment, then. If you've ever read the beginning of Fatal Revenant, I mean something like that for example, maybe not so drawn out though (I doubt it would be hard for Navani to find out what was up). I mean, remember how frickin' creepy Taravangian was about captive spren in OB? The Blackthorn-Shadow is basically another "abused pet" spren of his. I could see him wholeheartedly abusing this entity for disturbing pseudo-moral reasons rather than as (or in addition to) a combat manager.

[Soccorro]

What you are describing (brainless mad dog who attacks even his allies) is young Dalinar in his 20s. Aliexpress Dalinar is middle age Dalinar. He changed after he met Evi and became more chill and thoughtful (until he lost his mind after Rift dude betrayed him)

Here’s Gavilar’s letter for Dalinar:

“‘Brother,’ ” the letter began, “ ‘the treaty is sealed. Your efforts in Jah Keved are to be commended, and this should be a time of celebration and congratulations. Indeed, on a personal note, I wish to express my pride in you. The word from our best generals is that your tactical instincts have matured to full-fledged strategic genius. I never counted myself among their ranks, but to a man, they commend you as their equal.

“ ‘As I have grown to become a king, it seems you have found your place as our general. I’m most interested to hear your own reports of the small mobile team tactics you’ve been employing. I would like to speak in person at length about all of this—indeed, I have important revelations of my own I would like to share. It would be best if we could meet in person. Once, I enjoyed your company every day. Now I believe it has been three years since we last spoke face to face.’ ”

So he’s supposed to be “their best general” and “strategic genius”. Off we didn’t see much of it because it happened offscreen

[Schneeente]

6 hours ago, Soccorro said:

So he’s supposed to be “their best general” and “strategic genius”. Off we didn’t see much of it because it happened offscreen

I wouldn't even put those terms in quotation marks. 

You don't conquer a militaristic people like the Alethi by accident. Especially if you start out with fewer resources than some of your opponents. 

I think it's fair to say the Blackthorn's reputation is deserved if he has been largely responsible for the military success the Kholin family enjoyed. As a combatant and a general.. and now with some Retribution investiture I am sure he'll become even more terrifying than before. 

Two final points that speak to his competency:

- he strategized with Diego (the legendary Herdazian general) on equal ground 

- he showed tremendous creativity and a better strategic understanding (about the cosmere wide war) than Taravangian - who admittedly is no general but is still smarter than during his best day with the Diagram. 

The only two real disadvantages I see are:

1. Adolin has become a great general himself and if there is one person who can anticipate the blackthorn it might be his son?

2. We know that Dalinar has the capacity to feel shame, remorse, and regret. He's able to change. Who is to say what this 'appointment' might do to him. Maybe this bloody, galaxy-wide conquering spree will start an entirely new journey for him.

 

 

So I would say overall the Blackthorn is pretty impressive. And I think the only real alternative would have been a Fused... who definitly have even more battle-experience but they come with a whole lot of other downsides. 

[Ladoneye he/him]

I feel like a key point here is thinking about how the Blackthorn isn't just who Dalinar was, but is the world's perception who who is is/was. Every time we saw the rulers of the coalition hesitant to let him into their countries, every time someone remembered the brutality of his armies in wars decades before, they were building the think that would become what the Blackthorn is now, which is pretty damn scary in my opinion lol. This thing's motivations are simply the motivations other people have given it, and what little programming I imagine Odium was able to swirl in there as he brought it into existence.

As far as the Blackthorn losing control on the battlefield... yeah that could definitely happen. But I mean, Odium's brand is passion and fervor, and so I wouldn't be surprised if over zealousness is something he can look past cause it falls in line with the way he already runs things kinda-sorta. So maybe the Blackthorn isn't strictly speaking the best possible general, he still has a ton of traits, both as a soldier/general, and as a figurehead capable of drawing legends and reputation to him, that put him at the top of the list for potential leaders for Taravangian's army. 

I still just wanna hear more El stuff, cause he's so cool and we know so little

[Soccorro]

37 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

I wouldn't even put those terms in quotation marks

I didn’t put them in quotation marks in order to mock, I added quotation marks to show that these are quotes from the book itself, not my own words. I agree with you  

I’d also add one more disadvantage: Dalinar was human general, but Taravangian wants to use him for space cosmere wars which might be a different thing and it’s unknown whether or not spren or unmade or fused or whatever this thing is is capable of learning

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Soccorro said:

 I’d also add one more disadvantage: Dalinar was human general, but Taravangian wants to use him for space cosmere wars which might be a different thing and it’s unknown whether or not spren or unmade or fused or whatever this thing is is capable of learning

Spren (and cognitive entities in general) are capable of learning and changing, though they are also susceptible to perceptions of others.
He will definitely be worse than what Fused-Dalinar could have been.

But I wouldn't worry about his effectiveness in future combat (if he makes it that far), if there is one thing Blackthorn was good it was waging war, with whatever tools he had available.

[Asininity]

Dalinar is the complete package—the perfect blend of leader and soldier of his era:

• The most accomplished general of his time.
• Among the deadliest fighters.
• Inspiring troop leader.
• Ruthlessly efficient and intelligent.
• Living symbol of conquest, feared by whole Roshar.

And then there are the Nine Shadows. If a supernatural justification is needed, consider this: the potential to bind or subjugate all the Unmade is far beyond the reach of an ordinary mortal. What more could Odium possibly desire in his chosen sword?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

2 hours ago, Ladoneye said:

I feel like a key point here is thinking about how the Blackthorn isn't just who Dalinar was, but is the world's perception who who is is/was. Every time we saw the rulers of the coalition hesitant to let him into their countries, every time someone remembered the brutality of his armies in wars decades before, they were building the think that would become what the Blackthorn is now, which is pretty damn scary in my opinion lol. This thing's motivations are simply the motivations other people have given it, and what little programming I imagine Odium was able to swirl in there as he brought it into existence.

Blackthorn as a spiritual realm entity, influenced by people's perception of him, that IMO bumps up his effectiveness as TR's newest general. And although I failed to state it, I'm not denying @Soccorro and their point that middle age Dalinar became a strategic genius as it pertains to warfare. I guess that makes him impressive and a good lure for a guy with excellent planning but no real battlefield experience. I can also admit that his alternatives kinda suck other than El. 

All that being said, I still think that guy is the wrong one to pick. And his competency is a part of the problem. Once again, TR has the Spiritual Realm tapes. He knows good and well (or should) that Blackthorn was inches away from shredding Gavilar and taking over everything. Only brotherly love kept him pointed in the right direction. Now I'm sure TR is arrogant enough to believe he can ride herd on the type of monster Blackthorn can become but I'm not so sure. For all Taravanginan's genius he has almost never inspired loyalty, he gets followers through mutual benefit or threats. He has had such a problem with Dalinar because he's the type of person who can bowl over threats and ignore mutual benefit if he has a goal in mind. And that's Old Dalinar, tempered by wisdom and experience. You telling me he's going to have no problems controlling the less restrained version of that guy?

[NotLiamRoss He/Him]

4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Blackthorn as a spiritual realm entity, influenced by people's perception of him, that IMO bumps up his effectiveness as TR's newest general. And although I failed to state it, I'm not denying @Soccorro and their point that middle age Dalinar became a strategic genius as it pertains to warfare. I guess that makes him impressive and a good lure for a guy with excellent planning but no real battlefield experience. I can also admit that his alternatives kinda suck other than El. 

I think it's important to mention that Odium's plan was always for Dalinar to lose the contest and become a Fused serving him. This SR copy of him is just an unplanned second-best consolation prize after Dalinar "flipped the table" on the contest. I don't think even T-Retribution would say that the Blackthorn as he was at the time of the Rift is the best choice to lead his army, but at this point, he's acknowledged that the SR-copy Blackthorn (with at least some of Dalinar's memories thanks to the Connection he placed on him in the vision) is the best he's got. I'd argue that that's still better than most Cosmere military leaders that we've seen on screen to this point.

[Treamayne]

First, please let me start by saying that I agree that BlackthornSpren's importance is overstated - if just because so many of Dalinar-Blackthorn's feats were influenced by the Thrill - and Nergaoul is (as far as we know) still at the bottom of the Origin Ocean, trapped in the Kings Drop and locked in an aluminum chest.

Second, let me reiterate this:

4 hours ago, Ladoneye said:

I feel like a key point here is thinking about how the Blackthorn isn't just who Dalinar was, but is the world's perception who who is is/was.

BlackthornSpren is not Dalinar, and is not Dalinar's Cognitive Shadow. To assess this using either of those foundations is, I believe, to start from a false premise that cannot lead to solid conclusions.

BlackthornSpren is neither more nor less than an Investiture entity given Identity by the Rosharan popular opinion of what the Blackthorn was as a warrior and General - coupled with whichever memories were incorporated to create the Vision of Rathalas and the memories that Dalinar shared in that scene. However, Retribution (only had one vessel - no "T" needed IMO) should be fully capable of making BlackthornSpren into a version of the Heralds - since it knows how Honor circumvented the Fused's need for a host body by creating a body from Investiture. 

BlackthornSpren should still have the knowledge (and capability that led to it) of how Dalinar innovated in herdaz and Jah Kaved (creating mounted archers was one of the primary innovations that drove the Golden Horde under Temujin to conquer most of Asia - which was one of Dalinar's "small team" innovations). So, I expect BlackthornSpren to be both more and less than DalinarThorn was.  

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I preface this post by saying I love Dalinar. As a former soldier I can confidently say that he'd be a commander I could fight for. 

Concur - 15 years AD and I agree that Dalinar of Shattered Plains was an example the better leaders under whom I have served. 

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I get the pros of having him for a commander. He was strong, charismatic, had an iron will and was absolutely ruthless.

Strong and Ruthless are the only points with which I would concur. if he actually had an Iron Will, he would control the Thrill, instead of being controlled by it. He would have controlled his actions and reactions before Adolin's birth to not become PNG in any sporting event competitions because he loses control. If he were charismatic, he would be able to convice people to floow his lead, instead of just walking over them and expecting them to follow. It works for him, not because he is charasmatic - but because he is that good with both strategy and tactics theat people do not mind following (and it is preferable to being run over). 

So, my descriptor list would be effective, ruthless and stubborn. 

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I think everyone in the story bought the reputation of the Blackthorn and judged based off of that. It's a mistake, one that TR should not be making. He has the Spiritual Realm tapes, he should know the real deal about who he got to run his military campaign. He should not have picked a mad dog whose reputation doesn't extend past Roshar. A mad dog that is just as likely to turn on the guy who holds his leash. Old Dalinar? The guy we got running the Shattered Plains campaign? The guy who brute forced a coalition out of spare parts? The guy who forced a God to the negotiating table? Absolutely. He'd be an awesome guy to hand off overall command of your war across the stars. But not the guy who torched the Rift. Someone tell me if I'm misreading this.

But that is kinda the point. BlackthornSpren is those perceptions - not the reality of who Dalinar Blackthorn was. BlackthornSpren is the guy that, in Oathbringer, Dalinar muses was warranted their reaction to his visit (Ch 65):

Spoiler

He couldn’t see any of the market currently; the control building—which had been treated as some kind of monument in the market—was now surrounded by a wooden set of walls, and a new corridor. Empty of people, it was lit by sphere lamps along the walls. Sapphires. Coincidence, or a gesture of respect to a Kholin visitor?

At the end, the hallway opened into a small room populated by a line of Azish soldiers. They wore plated mail, with colorful caps on their heads, greatshields, and very long-handled axes with small heads. The whole group jumped as Dalinar entered, and then shied back, weapons held threateningly.

Dalinar held his arms out to the sides, packet from Fen in one hand, food bundle in the other. “I am unarmed.”

<snip>

Dalinar regarded the group of hostile guards, then sighed, waving and miming the act of dumping a drink into his mouth. The soldiers exchanged sharp words, then one of the youngest was pushed forward with a canteen. Dalinar nodded in thanks, then—as he took a drink from the water bottle—grabbed the young man by the wrist and held on.

Stormlight, the rumbling in his mind said.

Dalinar pressed Stormlight into the other man, and felt something—like a friendly sound coming from another room. All you had to do was get in. After a careful shove, the door opened, and sounds twisted and undulated in the air. Then, like music changing keys, they modulated from gibberish to sense.

“Captain!” cried the young guard that Dalinar held. “What do I do? He’s got me!”

Dalinar let go, and fortunately his understanding of the language persisted. “I’m sorry, soldier,” Dalinar said, handing back the canteen. “I didn’t mean to alarm you.”

The young soldier stepped back among his fellows. “The warlord speaks Azish?” He sounded as surprised as if he’d met a talking chull.

<snip>

They walked along a twisting path through the dome-covered market—which was now empty, like a ghost town. Many of the streets ended at barricades manned by troops.

They’d turned the Azimir Grand Market into a kind of reverse fortress, intended to protect the city from whatever might come through the Oathgate. If troops left the control building, they would find themselves in a maze of confusing streets.

<snip>

He walked down the ramp, and took it as a mark of respect that two entire divisions of troops surrounded the dome. 

 

5 hours ago, Ladoneye said:

As far as the Blackthorn losing control on the battlefield... yeah that could definitely happen. But I mean, Odium's brand is passion and fervor, and so I wouldn't be surprised if over zealousness is something he can look past cause it falls in line with the way he already runs things kinda-sorta. So maybe the Blackthorn isn't strictly speaking the best possible general, he still has a ton of traits, both as a soldier/general, and as a figurehead capable of drawing legends and reputation to him, that put him at the top of the list for potential leaders for Taravangian's army.

Agreed. But also, Blackthorn was adaptable, and successfully fought in most central and eastern Rosharan battlefield (winning in, Plains warfare, Island warfare, Rifts, Jungles, Coastal, etc.) If Retribution wants BlackthornSpren to explore outside of the Rosharan System and learn how to be successful in all/any of those environments, then that is probably the main reason he wanted the Blackthorn as a general in the first place. 

[Schneeente]

19 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

First, please let me start by saying that I agree that BlackthornSpren's importance is overstated

I am so confused by the first part of your post. Can you explain how you mean it?

Because at first glance being the supreme commander of the troops of the strongest shard seems super important. Or did you not mean that the post of general isn't important but that the specific person who holds that post is not "important" because they are ultimately replaceable and maybe even interchangable? So if Tavangian picks general A or B doesn't matter since they would all do roughly the same - following their God's wishes/commands? 

[Treamayne]

9 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

I am so confused by the first part of your post. Can you explain how you mean it?

Because at first glance being the supreme commander of the troops of the strongest shard seems super important. Or did you not mean that the post of general isn't important but that the specific person who holds that post is not "important" because they are ultimately replaceable and maybe even interchangable? So if Tavangian picks general A or B doesn't matter since they would all do roughly the same - following their God's wishes/commands? 

I meant that I agreed with the sentiment of the OP. BlackthornSpren recruited by Retribution will still just be one entity - and one that lacks the Thrill and an Army. Many people seem to be reacting to Blackthorn's recruitment like the Blackthorn will be able to wipe out entire armies on their own - I agreed with the OP that seems to be an overstated sentiment. 

Skilled? Yes. A Threat? Yes. But mitigating factors will apply, and we will have to see how he is written to really evaluate. For example - no Thrill lessens his fighting style as-seen in Oathbringer Flashback chapters 3-26. But, as a potential Fused/Herald-Type Spren in physical form, will he have Surges? That changes things considerably. Will lhe lead the Singer Armies? That also changes things. 

Does that help?

Edited January 8, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Schneeente]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I meant that I agreed with the sentiment of the OP. BlackthornSpren recruited by Retribution will still just be one entity - and one that lacks the Thrill and an Army. Many people seem to be reacting to Blackthorn's recruitment like the Blackthorn will be able to wipe out entire armies on their own - I agreed with the OP that seems to be an overstated sentiment. 

Ahhh, I see. You were talking about how powerful or impressive the BlackthornSpren might potentially be on the actual battlefield. As a combatant. 

 

Let me think about that for a moment. 

 

So the most important thing to realize is that a general's value is not his own, personal fighting prowess. Yes, it can be a nice addition but it's clearly a "nice to have" and not a must-have. His decisions are so much more impactful than his sword. And the bigger the army the truer that sentiment becomes since with every additional fighter you reduce the impact an individual has and increase the importance of strategic decisions. Where to attack. With how much force. How to distribute your forces so you don't get flanked or outmaneuvered. (Adolin taught that particular lesson beautifully to his student, I think it was one of the first lessons that you can lose even if you have the objectively stronger army. A lesson that is not only true in fantasy books but there are plenty of examples in our own history)

Therefore to answer OP's question regarding how impressive the BlackthornSpren really is, we'd have to give more weight to his military / strategic knowledge than his personal power. Or am I totally off-track here? 

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

So the most important thing to realize is that a general's value is not his own, personal fighting prowess. Yes, it can be a nice addition but it's clearly a "nice to have" and not a must-have. His decisions are so much more impactful than his sword. And the bigger the army the truer that sentiment becomes since with every additional fighter you reduce the impact an individual has and increase the importance of strategic decisions. Where to attack. With how much force. How to distribute your forces so you don't get flanked or outmaneuvered. (Adolin taught that particular lesson beautifully to his student, I think it was one of the first lessons that you can lose even if you have the objectively stronger army. A lesson that is not only true in fantasy books but there are plenty of examples in our own history)

Therefore to answer OP's question regarding how impressive the BlackthornSpren really is, we'd have to give more weight to his military / strategic knowledge than his personal power. Or am I totally off-track here?

Concur.

3 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

You were talking about how powerful or impressive the BlackthornSpren might potentially be on the actual battlefield. As a combatant.

Not really - I was making a similar point to yours. Most Blackthorn Comments are about how effective Dalinar fought and led from the front lines in the flashbacks. I was trying to make a similar point to yours - the things that made him effective in those flashbacks won't apply to the BlackthornSpren - so they should not be the basis by which we discuss how effective Retribution's recruit will be in the back half or the wide Cosmere. 

[rabidhexley]

I think the main point about the portrayal of Dalinar as the Blackthorn specifically is simply that he "Gets" war and combat, like on an intrinsic, almost supernatural level. Have him be born into any time period and teach him about the way war is waged and he will excel as long as he lives long enough to learn. The way he waged war may not apply in the modern age, but I think the message insofar as what Rayse and Taravangian both identified is that his inherent talent can be adapted to any dynamic involving battle.

 

He's not a politician or grand strategist, but he's the guy you send in when you simply want to win, which is how Gavilar used him during his rise.

 

Whether or not what was shown on screen makes you believe that? That's a different matter. But I do think that is what the story has been trying to say.

Edited January 8, 2025 by rabidhexley

[MagicMaggot]

The Blackthorn is the spren reflecting the biggest, baddest warrior, of the biggest, baddest warrior nation of the biggest baddest cosmere warrior world, or something like that. How powerful he is will largely depend on how much Retribution decides to power him up, but certainly enough to cause a stir. And he never had to be the best choice of possible field commanders for Taravangian, because the petty little god was all about glorying in the subversion of his "former friend" to his cause.

Since he isn't really meant to dominate Roshar, but the cosmere, we have quite a range of different leagues out there, he can work his way through. And going by Dalinar's assessment, a logical move to level up the capabilities of his armies would be for Mr T to harden his troops by raiding softer cosmere targets first, before moving on to harder ones. The Blackthorn doesn't have to compete with worlds on the level of Scadrial or something, yet, we can see him lead troops to take magics from smaller worlds by force first, making him a general menace. We might actually see that earlier than SA6, considering Retribution doesn't really have a reason to hold him back for 10 Roshar years, so Ghostbloods or Elantris might have first confrontations with him or his bloody work already.

And at that point I honestly wouldn't care much if he was the best, or even a really reasonable choice to be the one to be there, I'd just love to see what happens if you filter a deliberately wild version of Dalinar, through more civilized, "modern" perspectives, and just let him get some momentum going.

[rabidhexley]

2 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

The Blackthorn is the spren reflecting the biggest, baddest warrior, of the biggest, baddest warrior nation of the biggest baddest cosmere warrior world, or something like that.

This is an important point, given that he's a spren. The name "Blackthorn" has a very specific connotation on Roshar.