New Iriali Theory

[TheoreticalMagic]

Spoilers for the whole book, but this mostly focuses on Chapter 50.

Okay, so this bit from Chapter 50 stuck out at me and I'm a little obsessed with figuring out what it implies about the Iriali:

Spoiler

 

Quote

“It’s fine,” he said. “I’m not real, so my emotions don’t matter! My pain is an illusion, and I’m a puppet for raw Investiture, propped up and speaking like the sock on a child’s hand.” He cocked his head. “Damn. Is this how the Iriali feel all the time? No wonder they’re so storming odd.”

For context, this is when the version of Wit from the vision showing the crossing from Ashyn to Roshar is having an existential crisis about the fact that he feels things and is in emotional pain but he also has an awareness that he is not real, that he's not really Hoid, but in fact is just raw Investiture in the shape and form of Hoid, temporarily believing himself to be Hoid in order to play the appropriate part in the vision.

So, IMO, that makes it a VERY curious thing, for "this" Hoid to relate to the Iriali.

What I'm wondering is....given the Iriali religion about the One becoming Many in order to experience all things.....

Could this be a hint that maybe the Iriali as a people are actual remnants or manifestations of Adonalsium or his Investiture.....raw Investiture made to act in the shape or form or Identity of individual people but on some level retaining an awareness of their true nature...proxies or simulacrums for the purpose of experiencing life and gaining more experiences?

 

Possibly separate, but part of another theory I have about the Iriali so I might as well mention it here...

Combine that with the golden-skinned (and often cited as otherworldly/inhuman) appearance of the Iriali.....and the fact that one of the most feared forces in the cosmere....the men of red and gold could be theorized to be Iriali who are also associated with red, the color of corrupted Investiture....

And what could be potentially more terrifying than someone like Autonomy realizing that there was an entire race of people who were possibly Splinters of Adonalsium splintered off by him BEFORE the Shattering....similar to how the Heralds, spren and pieces of Honor Splintered off before the power merged with Odium are outside of Retribution's reach.....

Potentially meaning that the sixteen Shards are pieces of the whole that was the still-UNSPLINTERED 'core' of Adonalsium as of the time of the Shattering....but like the Wind, the Stone and the Night still existed outside of that Shattered core....so too the Iriali could an entire people made up of tiny individual Splinters created specifically to learn things and grow, much like Dalinar wanted Honor to learn things and grow from the experience of joining with Odium.

And if the men of red and gold are all individual Splinters of Adonalsium corrupted by Autonomy somehow, maybe by intermingling her own Investiture within them, similar to how she creates avatars, leaving just enough of herself mixed in with "Original Recipe" Adonalsium's raw Investiture that the result displays the signature red of corrupted Investiture....

That could have massive implications for the importance of the Iriali in the space age of the cosmere.

 

Edit: Further thoughts....gold was considered to be Odium's color, but think about Odium's frequent insistence that he's the god of emotions, of passions, even though Taravangian displays an awareness Rayse lacks about how certain key emotions were removed from Odium's portfolio by the Shattering, and thus emotions like love don't mean as much to him....those ended up in Devotion's portfolio instead, as others likely went to Mercy, Valor, etc.

But still, if there's some reason for Odium's insistence that he's more about the raw, unfiltered power of raw emotions than most other Shards....

Could any of that have to do with the idea that gold maybe is the cosmere color of emotions in general? Now add to this the conversations the Sibling has with Dalinar about how they disagree with the Stormfather and think Honor NEEDS another Vessel, that the power of a god divorced from any emotional Connection to humanity or mortals would be a very bad thing for mortals....

And to my mind, it makes a certain amount of sense that if pre-Shattering, Adonalsium DID decide that he needed to experience mortal existence in some fashion, live finite lives as beings of EMOTION as much as power or intellect....

If gold is the cosmere color of emotions or passions in general, pre-Shattering....any such Splinters he made from this angle would very likely be gold. And if one Shard was MORE emotional or passionate than the others, even if he couldn't truly or properly be named Passion or Emotion rather than Odium because certain key emotions still ended up more associated with other Shards than with him.....well, then that Shard's signature color would be gold as well. Which we know is Odium's primary associated color. And this would neatly explain why either the Iriali or men of red and gold or both...might similarly be gold without being of Odium himself, or his Invested tools or proxies. Their gold hue shares a source point with Odium's color being gold....but they're not gold BECAUSE of Odium, or vice versa.

 

Edited January 7, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Could this be a hint that maybe the Iriali as a people are actual remnants or manifestations of Adonalsium or his Investiture.

Keep in mind - All investiture originates with Adonalsium. And all investiture was assigned to a Shard during the Shattering. WoB:

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

It is more likely (if the idea is sound) that a specific Shard gave Splinters to the Iriali (like Endownment/Breath) so the Iriali have a specific investiture tied to their sDNA that is seeking Experience (returning the SR after they die, to be reborn to another Iri again later).

Hope that helps

[TheoreticalMagic]

Spoiler

What confuses me then is the specific emphasis on the Wind, the Night and the Stone being of Adonalsium, pre-dating the Shattering. I suppose you could argue that the Investiture inherent in those ancient spren had some kind of connection to the Shards who later settled on Roshar, as they modeled the Bondsmith spren off those ancient spren, but I have trouble reconciling the quote you provide there with how this series talks about the spren. The Nightwatcher is explicitly said to be called the Old Magic because Cultivation created her in emulation of what existed before her arrival, with multiple characters referring to the ancient spren as being older than the gods. However I parse it, it really does seem like there's precedence for Splinters of Adonalsium that don't stem from the Shards to exist, and that's what I'm basing this idea off of. But I admit, that quote from Brandon does create considerable confusion here. Hmmm.

 

Edited January 7, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[Argenti he/him]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind - All investiture originates with Adonalsium. And all investiture was assigned to a Shard during the Shattering. WoB:

 

With the asterisks of the dawnshards, they're not assigned a shard. Possibly also the Aethers, though that's contested, and the Aethers might be wrong in this.