Hoids Imaginary Friend Posted January 6, 2025 Posted January 6, 2025 When the 3 Roshar Shards initially make an agreement, we see Honors power rush out and bind the Shards. All 3 Shards are surprised by this and Cultivation comments that after thousands of years they don't really understand their powers. So it appears that Honor has a unique power to bind oaths (obviously). But what if all Shards also have a unique ability? What do you think they'd be? 1
Qianweilian He/him Posted January 6, 2025 Posted January 6, 2025 I mean, Preservation could listen and Ruin could talk 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted January 6, 2025 Posted January 6, 2025 1 hour ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said: When the 3 Roshar Shards initially make an agreement, we see Honors power rush out and bind the Shards. All 3 Shards are surprised by this and Cultivation comments that after thousands of years they don't really understand their powers. So it appears that Honor has a unique power to bind oaths (obviously). But what if all Shards also have a unique ability? What do you think they'd be? Yes, all Shards have certain unique abilities and limitations that come with their Intent. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/538-fanx-2024/ Questioner My question is about Ruin and Preservation creating life. Is that an example of two individuals having a super team up? Or is there some co-influence, cross-influence that let them do something that would be outside of themselves? Brandon Sanderson Rephrase that for me. Talk around a little bit. Let me see if I'm gonna get the right answer, okay? Questioner Ruin ruins, and Preservation preserves. If they're creating life, well, that takes a little of everything, right? Is that an influence, like Ruin being in proximity to Preservation and vice versa? Would their co-mingling happen... and how would that influence other dual or triple Shards? Brandon Sanderson I get what you're saying. Each of the Shards has certain strengths and weaknesses, and they're capable of certain things and not other things. Some of them can do what was done by Ruin and Preservation on their own. Most cannot. Most combinations of two could; some would need three. So, it really kind of depends on the situation and the Shard. Each pairing and grouping of Shards will have different sort of augmentations to what they can accomplish, and things like this, because the Shards aren't all-powerful, they're just part of something that once was, if that makes sense. (That's not how math works in infinity, but it is how infinity works in the cosmere.) 4
Hoids Imaginary Friend Posted January 8, 2025 Author Posted January 8, 2025 (edited) On 1/6/2025 at 10:39 PM, Trusk'our said: Yes, all Shards have certain unique abilities and limitations that come with their Intent. Hide contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/538-fanx-2024/ Questioner My question is about Ruin and Preservation creating life. Is that an example of two individuals having a super team up? Or is there some co-influence, cross-influence that let them do something that would be outside of themselves? Brandon Sanderson Rephrase that for me. Talk around a little bit. Let me see if I'm gonna get the right answer, okay? Questioner Ruin ruins, and Preservation preserves. If they're creating life, well, that takes a little of everything, right? Is that an influence, like Ruin being in proximity to Preservation and vice versa? Would their co-mingling happen... and how would that influence other dual or triple Shards? Brandon Sanderson I get what you're saying. Each of the Shards has certain strengths and weaknesses, and they're capable of certain things and not other things. Some of them can do what was done by Ruin and Preservation on their own. Most cannot. Most combinations of two could; some would need three. So, it really kind of depends on the situation and the Shard. Each pairing and grouping of Shards will have different sort of augmentations to what they can accomplish, and things like this, because the Shards aren't all-powerful, they're just part of something that once was, if that makes sense. (That's not how math works in infinity, but it is how infinity works in the cosmere.) Haven't heard that, which is cool. But! Though it's suggestive, he doesn't say anything about unique powers a Shard may have, which we see with Honors power Binding the Shards as I've pointed out in the OP. I was hoping to open a discussion theorising what the other Shards "unique" power could be, and I don't think your rebuttal dismisses this idea. On 1/6/2025 at 10:27 PM, Qianweilian said: I mean, Preservation could listen and Ruin could talk El's interlude shows Odium talking to him in his mind, I think this is what @Trusk'our's comment is talking about. Edited January 8, 2025 by Hoids Imaginary Friend
Trusk'our he/him Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 4 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said: Haven't heard that, which is cool. But! Though it's suggestive, he doesn't say anything about unique powers a Shard may have, which we see with Honors power Binding the Shards as I've pointed out in the OP. I was hoping to open a discussion theorising what the other Shards "unique" power could be, and I don't think your rebuttal dismisses this idea. El's interlude shows Odium talking to him in his mind, I think this is what @Trusk'our's comment is talking about. Rebuttal? Sorry if I came off unclear, I meant to say that I fully agree with your idea (I just didn't have time to extrapolate earlier). I think we've actually seen a few unique abilities from each Shard already. Preservation has, as far as I'm aware, the best futuresight of any entity in the Cosmere. Not only did Leras's plan to save Scadrial work, but it was formed millenia before it fully transpired, and it had to be done while another cognizant being with futuresight plotted against it. Ruin's Investiture is weird, as I think we've seen it show up in supposedly unrelated places, like Nightblood, the Shroud, and possibly some of the Unmade (like Re-Shephir). I think this is not only because of Intent alignment, but because Ruin is all about change, and converting other Investitures to its own Intent without relying on corruption seems fitting (Scadrian Hemalurgy I think does this to stolen Investiture too, as spikes seem to Connect to Ruin instead of Preservation even when stealing from Preservation). Autonomy has been shown to be capable of spawning Avatars on other worlds, even creating Perpendicularities in those places (like the First of the Sun and Scadrial). What's more, Hemalurgic spikes made from her metal repel other Investitures. I think this, combined with her plans to invade Scadrial, may indicate she could be able to force out other Shards from a planet if she fully Invests there (kind of like how Honor can bind even other Shards to oaths made). Endowment has some ability in the power of giving. Breaths be easily taken offworld, which can be difficult for many Investitures. I think the Shard's Intent suggests that this it is easier to pass around to others, or to Invest them in general. Given how pervasive Cognitive Shadows are to the Threnodite system, I would venture to guess that Ambition's Intent makes it easier to come back from the grave. The Evil of Threnody being a kind of Cognitive Shadow of Uli Da like the Stormfather was to Tanavast would make sense, even despite the Shard's Splintering. Cultivation's influence on Roshar causes more intelligent life to pop up outside of humanity, and it seems to drive Surgebinders' powers to grow over time. I think a similar effect to Ruin would be applicable, where the Shard's influence may grow into other things in the Cosmere, though organically over time rather than in a sudden burst of transformative decay. Honor, as seen in WaT, is capable of enforcing oaths to an incredible degree, even amongst other Shards. Making a pact with Honor's oversight could not only spell your doom if you botched it, I think the Shard could potentially override your own Investiture's will to prevent oathbreaking (at least for highly Invested beings like Vessels and Spren. Mortals might still break oaths, just without the aid of their Investiture). Not so sure about the other Shards for now. Odium may have some edge in killing Shards, but that might be chalked up to more experience or more concentrated Investiture after refusing to Invest any other worlds. 4
CousinOfTanavast Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 On 1/6/2025 at 6:27 AM, Qianweilian said: I mean, Preservation could listen and Ruin could talk I got the feeling that all shards could do both of those, and that Preservation couldn’t talk with Ruin’s hand over its mouth, and Ruin couldn’t hear with Preservation’s hands over its ears. I’m not sure of evidence for that interpretation, though.
Nitpicking Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 14 hours ago, Trusk'our said: ... Autonomy has been shown to be capable of spawning Avatars on other worlds, even creating Perpendicularities in those places (like the First of the Sun and Scadrial). What's more, Hemalurgic spikes made from her metal repel other Investitures. I think this, combined with her plans to invade Scadrial, may indicate she could be able to force out other Shards from a planet if she fully Invests there (kind of like how Honor can bind even other Shards to oaths made). .... Cultivation's influence on Roshar causes more intelligent life to pop up outside of humanity, ... Doesn't all Investiture repel other (non-Connected) Investiture? The WoB linked above refers to sentience. In Brandon's use of the word, that doesn't mean thinking. It means self-awareness. Dogs are sentient to Brandon, I'm sure, but not necessarily sapient.
Trusk'our he/him Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 22 minutes ago, Nitpicking said: Doesn't all Investiture repel other (non-Connected) Investiture? All Investiture resists Investiture with a conflicting Identity, as well as there being limited space for the two or more types to share. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181-stormlight-three-update-4/#e3830 Argent We know that you can't Lash people in Shardplate, but can you Lash the person inside the Plate? If they had their helm off, for example. At that point Plate should be just dead weight, right? Brandon Sanderson There's a bit of an interference envelope. Wearing plate, the person has this big ball of investiture around them, and so pushing any through it--even by touching a person without a helm--is going to be tough. Easier than with the helm on though, I suppose. Investiture acts (roughly) like a saturated solution in these cases. Sticking more power into something like a Feruchemical storage or a hyper-invested object like Plate is increasingly hard. The other part is that Investiture tends to interfere with other Investiture, unless there's a familiar resonance. (This is part of what philosophers call Identity.) Slapping your hand through a sand master's stream of sand will cause interference, and make them start to drop. It's not that the sand is supporting them, it's that the investiture holding them up gets scrambled for a moment because of your own investiture. Investiture pushed toward someone inside a hyper-invested (supersaturated) system like a person in Shardplate is going to get hard push-back. This is similar to the reason that it's harder to Push on invested coins. Depends on how invested they are, in that case. It's generally not as hard as doing something like Lashing a person in plate. (This is more about the interference than the saturation of investiture.) But the two principles are what I use to guide the physics in these areas. quietandproud Can we take that as a hint that the Investiture in the Plates and the Investiture that the Surge of [Adhesion] uses come from different Shards? Or do they interfere because they "belong" to different spren? Brandon Sanderson You know, I should have realized this one would bring out the follow up questions. Let's leave it at what I posted for now. This is a deep, deep rabbit hole, and I do need to try to get some more writing done tonight. So...RAFO. (Sorry.) However, Trellium spikes actually create a physical repulsion between themselves and other Hemalurgic spikes and Allomancy, enough that it can be felt. I don't think this would be the same as, say, Hemalurgy repelling the Mists, as there is an actual force made between the two, rather than the other Investiture seeming to pull away of its own accord. 30 minutes ago, Nitpicking said: The WoB linked above refers to sentience. In Brandon's use of the word, that doesn't mean thinking. It means self-awareness. Dogs are sentient to Brandon, I'm sure, but not necessarily sapient. The way it was worded led me to believe it was sapience, just worded weirdly. Here's another supporting WoB I forgot. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/451-tor-instagram-livestream/#e14456 Questioner Would a macaw be able to become a Radiant? Or do you need sentience? Brandon Sanderson You need sapience. A macaw could not become a Knight Radiant. A macaw could, theoretically, enter a symbiotic spren bond, which would have different effects. Like, Ryshadium or even most of the larger greatshells don't have sapience. But a lot of creatures on Roshar do have what I would term an in-between step between human-level intelligence and animal-level intelligence on Earth. Ryshadium are in this; chasmfiends, as well, are smarter than an animal can get on Earth.
Sophrosyne he/him Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 I have the impression that shardic telepathy was connection based. Like spren and radiant. TLM and WaT: Spoiler T-Odium not being able to read Jasanah's mind, but could El. Harmony not being able to reads Telsin's. Though in his case it's as likely to do with Hemalurgy as anything else. 12 hours ago, CousinOfTanavast said: I got the feeling that all shards could do both of those, and that Preservation couldn’t talk with Ruin’s hand over its mouth, and Ruin couldn’t hear with Preservation’s hands over its ears. I’m not sure of evidence for that interpretation, though. I'm actually pretty sure Ruin was only able to talk to people with cracks in their souls because of Preservation's prison. but their specific situation was so... specific there no telling IMO. It's implied at least that all godmetals have unique properties, right? likely these two things are connected.
Nitpicking Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 @Trusk'our, as a biologist, the idea that "animals on Earth" can't be as smart as a Rhyshadium is weirdly oxymoronic. Animals on Earth, such as Brandon Sanderson, are much smarter than the magic horses already. What does he even mean? @Sophrosyne, but Harmony still can only talk as Ruin and listen as Preservation. Sazed complains about not understanding why that is the case.
Sophrosyne he/him Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 1 hour ago, Nitpicking said: but Harmony still can only talk as Ruin and listen as Preservation. Sazed complains about not understanding why that is the case. I don't recall him complaining about that. I know he notes it that its curious that each only has half but his shards are comingled so there is no doing something as one other. it's the whole reason he needed a sword.
Argenti he/him Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 3 hours ago, Nitpicking said: @Trusk'our, as a biologist, the idea that "animals on Earth" can't be as smart as a Rhyshadium is weirdly oxymoronic. Animals on Earth, such as Brandon Sanderson, are much smarter than the magic horses already. What does he even mean? That's just in bad faith. You know what he means. He says "But a lot of creatures on Roshar do have what I would term an in-between step between human-level intelligence and animal-level intelligence on Earth. Ryshadium are in this; chasmfiends, as well, are smarter than an animal can get on Earth." He's using the definition of animal as 'an animal as opposed to a human being," rather than the biological definition of multicellular, eukaryotic organisms in the kingdom Animalia It's one thing to nitpick an argument, another to ignore reasonable logic and colloquial terms just because. 1
AlmightyGir Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 Well... I don't know if it's unique or not, but Odium is able to remove peoples abilities to feel.
Argenti he/him Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 1 hour ago, AlmightyGir said: Well... I don't know if it's unique or not, but Odium is able to remove peoples abilities to feel. That certainly feels weird. Ruin couldn't do it.
Nitpicking Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 7 hours ago, Argenti said: That's just in bad faith. You know what he means. He says "But a lot of creatures on Roshar do have what I would term an in-between step between human-level intelligence and animal-level intelligence on Earth. Ryshadium are in this; chasmfiends, as well, are smarter than an animal can get on Earth." He's using the definition of animal as 'an animal as opposed to a human being," rather than the biological definition of multicellular, eukaryotic organisms in the kingdom Animalia It's one thing to nitpick an argument, another to ignore reasonable logic and colloquial terms just because. I'm a biology teacher. My bachelors is in zoology. There are levels of intelligence between "single celled parasite", say trypanosomes, and us. Every level between. Caledonian crows make tools, carry them where they're needed, and understand and anticipate multi-level problems involving things they can't see. Orcas teach each other about threats (like harpoon-shooting boats), in a way that can really only involve language of some variety. Gray parrots can learn to plausibly speak English, in fact. What gap do you think Rhyshadiums fill that no Earth animal "can" fill? Brandon's statement as recorded makes zero sense.
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