Is Taravangian's old deal still in play?

[Letryx13]

Something I found particularly interesting in WaT was the interlude where Todium destroys Kharbranth.

At the time, I thought he was allowed to get away with it because of how it was explained in the interlude, that since the city had been given to him as part of his deal with Rayse, then that meant he could do what he wanted to it. I even hoped it would be brought up in his debate with Jasnah (I bet Fen would have loved that).  But then in the end we find out that he moved everyone in the city to the spiritual realm, which got me thinking.

The deal between Rayse and Taravangian was one of the ways that I thought Dalinar could beat Todium. If Odium's champion ended up killing Dalinar's champion, and if that person had been from Kharbranth, then that would be a violation of Taravangian's agreement with Rayse, which likely is bound to the power.  I even wondered if Kaladin had been born in Kharbranth, thinking he might end up as Dalinar's champion after all.

The chapter in WaT where Hoid explains how shards are bound by such agreements encourage me in this area. The agreement between Rayse and Taravangian seemed formal enough that the power would still be bound by it, despite the new host.

One old issue with the theory still stands, that since Taravangian is now the vessel for Odium, he could ease the restrictions of that deal. But if he could be tricked into violating that agreement before realizing he was breaking it, could it still hurt him?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

The deal between Rayse and Taravangian was one of the ways that I thought Dalinar could beat Todium.

It likely is a chink in Retribution's armour. Let's review the exact dialog - OB Ch 122:

Spoiler

“Kharbranth,” he said. “Preserve only Kharbranth. You may destroy all other nations. Just leave my city. It is what I beg of you.”

The world was lost, humankind doomed.

They had planned to protect so much more. But … he saw now how little they knew. One city before the storms. One land protected, even if the rest had to be sacrificed.

“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

“Should we write … a contract?”

“Our word is the contract. I am not some spren of Honor, who seeks to obey only the strictest letter of a promise. If you have an agreement from me, I will keep it in spirit, not merely in word.”

What else could he do? “I will take this deal,” Taravangian whispered. 

And the Power of Odium did "spare" Kharbranth and its people, by hiding it in the Spiritual realm while faking out Cultivation that it had been destroyed. The power of Odium even left the bodies of all her Babatharnish minions (who were not born in Kharbranth) as evidence of destruction. . . 

Seems like a secret he needs to keep hidden. 

[Letryx13]

14 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It likely is a chink in Retribution's armour. Let's review the exact dialog - OB Ch 122:

  Reveal hidden contents

“Kharbranth,” he said. “Preserve only Kharbranth. You may destroy all other nations. Just leave my city. It is what I beg of you.”

The world was lost, humankind doomed.

They had planned to protect so much more. But … he saw now how little they knew. One city before the storms. One land protected, even if the rest had to be sacrificed.

“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

“Should we write … a contract?”

“Our word is the contract. I am not some spren of Honor, who seeks to obey only the strictest letter of a promise. If you have an agreement from me, I will keep it in spirit, not merely in word.”

What else could he do? “I will take this deal,” Taravangian whispered. 

And the Power of Odium did "spare" Kharbranth and its people, by hiding it in the Spiritual realm while faking out Cultivation that it had been destroyed. The power of Odium even left the bodies of all her Babatharnish minions (who were not born in Kharbranth) as evidence of destruction. . . 

Seems like a secret he needs to keep hidden. 

Re-reading the exact words, I realize another issue is that he agreed to spare the city as well. So that could be a problem. Though, I suppose a city is mostly its people, so there is some nuance to that. As for him keeping the people he spared a secret, that's probably to keep Cultivation or anyone else from using his family against him.

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Re-reading the exact words, I realize another issue is that he agreed to spare the city as well. So that could be a problem. Though, I suppose a city is mostly its people, so there is some nuance to that. As for him keeping the people he spared a secret, that's probably to keep Cultivation or anyone else from using his family against him.

I agree that would be the primary reason, and his likely rationalization. But - he holds Honor now, if he lets his war destroy them or the reconstructed Vision-Kharbranth then he will have broken his Oath. One more step toward the kind of inter-shard problems that will either force him to lose one or both shards (like Tanavast) or essentially render him incapable of action that does not violate one or both Intents. 

[Isilel]

Yes, I was rather flabbergasted when T anihilated Kharbranth and wasn't hurt as a result. Also, by him saying that the deal with Odium was about giving the city to  him, when him being the legal king of it already got around Honor's restrictions and put it in his power. So, when it was finally revealed that the people had been spared, it made perfect sense to me. However, demolishing of the city proper was still a breach of a very clear divine contract and should have had some reprecussions, IMHO.

And, currently re-reading WoK, I can't help but mourn the loss to Rosharan civilization caused by the destruction of Palaneum...

[Alcatur]

By taking over the shard the promise should became moot. His promise is now to himself, so he should be able to just decide it no longer binds him. I see no conflict here nor any chink or weakness. 

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Alcatur said:

By taking over the shard the promise should became moot. His promise is now to himself, so he should be able to just decide it no longer binds him. I see no conflict here nor any chink or weakness. 

Perhaps is should, but in the Cosmere perception is important - and it was his own internal monologue of self-justification that made his deal with Odium remain important.

[Letryx13]

1 minute ago, Alcatur said:

By taking over the shard the promise should became moot. His promise is now to himself, so he should be able to just decide it no longer binds him. I see no conflict here nor any chink or weakness. 

That's been the biggest issue with the theory since the end of RoW. He probably can do exactly that, but if he were tricked into breaking the promise before giving himself permission to do so, then I think he'd be in violation of his old deal. It's a gray area, I admit, but that's part of what makes me think it could work.

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Perhaps is should, but in the Cosmere perception is important - and it was his own internal monologue of self-justification that made his deal with Odium remain important.

Exactly. It was a formal agreement, and that means it should require formal permission from Taravangian in order to break it. 

[Alcatur]

But do we have any indication that the requirements are so intricate? Promise by Odium specifically did not require any formal elements:

“Should we write … a contract?” “Our word is the contract."

 

So if just a clear communication is required - well, a conscious decision is a clear communication to yourself. 

[+Child of Hodor]

My issue with this and the contract law in WaT in general is that somehow the changing of the Vessel from Rayse to Taravangian meant Taravangian could exploit loopholes despite Rayse promising not to, yet somehow Dalinar could not also exploit loopholes by say changing which city was the capital of a nation even though Dalinar never explicitly promised not to use loopholes. 

Do these promises hold despite the Vessel changing or not? I think they should and Taravangian shouldn't be able to destroy Kharbranth without consequences, but I don't know anymore. 

[Treamayne]

23 minutes ago, Alcatur said:

So if just a clear communication is required - well, a conscious decision is a clear communication to yourself. 

Without a reply,. I am unsure what you are advocating here. Do you mean:

1. He gave himself permission to destroy the city - or  -
2. He gave himself permission to end the contract to spare Kharbranth - or -
3. Something else entirely?

 

[Letryx13]

8 hours ago, Alcatur said:

But do we have any indication that the requirements are so intricate? Promise by Odium specifically did not require any formal elements:

“Should we write … a contract?” “Our word is the contract."

 

So if just a clear communication is required - well, a conscious decision is a clear communication to yourself. 

That's why I'm saying he needs to do the damage before realizing he broke his word. He needs to attack or kill someone from Kharbranth without realizing he did so. That way, it's not a conscious decision.

[Raven Wilder]

21 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

My issue with this and the contract law in WaT in general is that somehow the changing of the Vessel from Rayse to Taravangian meant Taravangian could exploit loopholes despite Rayse promising not to, yet somehow Dalinar could not also exploit loopholes by say changing which city was the capital of a nation even though Dalinar never explicitly promised not to use loopholes. 

Do these promises hold despite the Vessel changing or not? I think they should and Taravangian shouldn't be able to destroy Kharbranth without consequences, but I don't know anymore. 

We're never shown the full text of the contract, nor do we have access to the Alethi legal code the contract was created under. Instead, we're told that one of the sharpest legal minds in the cosmere has looked over everything, and concluded that changing the capital and any other loophole that might help the coalition, it ain't gonna work, just gonna have to take their word on that.

As for what promises do and do not bind Taravangian, my guess is the contract had some wording along the lines of "I, Odium, do hereby swear ..." That'd make it a contract specifically with the Shard of Odium, and so anyone who takes up the Shard and inherits the title of Odium also inherits that contract. Meanwhile, Rayse saying they'd honor the spirit of the contract and not exploit any loopholes, that's considered a promise from Rayse as an individual, not from the Shard.

[AlmightyGir]

Given that every character who's experienced the Spiritual Realm has said that staying in there for prolonged periods of time is straight up bad for you... One does wonder how long Kharbranth and its citizens can withstand the place.

Presumably, it's largely being held together by some measure of concentrated effort by Big T, much like how all of the visions worked. There were times when characters were able to note that Odium was not directly looking at them in the Spiritual Realm by virtue of the visions feeling different.

Does that mean if something pulls enough of Big T's energy/effort/concentration away from Kharbranth, it becomes less protected from the other effects of the realm, and the people within it start going crazy?

How does *living* in the Spiritual Realm affect someone's Spirit Web? What about their Cognitive Shadows? It's been stated so far that the Spiritual Realm is essentially a storage facility for the *truth* of a person's life, their memories, the *actual* things they did in the Physical and Cognitive realms. But if you live in the Spiritual Realm, how can you imprint those truths? Does your future basically become null?

Has Big T inadvertently doomed his people?

Edited January 1, 2025 by AlmightyGir