AlmightyGir Posted December 29, 2024 Posted December 29, 2024 This thread: And this WoB: Quote asmodeus You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets. I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it. Footnote: It was a really fun one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) has caused me to question something... If we see what we understand to be Lightweaving showing up in other places, and as it's been explained in WaT, Surges (unbound) are fundamental forces of the universe. Does this mean that all forms of investiture on all planets are essentially just the various Surges under different names? Including various Allomantic abilities? In particular, I'm thinking about what has recently been stated about time dilation, and how Retribution caused a bubble around Roshar by pulling so much investiture into the physical/cognitive realms through his new storm. Does this mean that Cadmium/Bendalloy burning results in huge amounts of investiture being pulled into the physical/cognitive realms to cause their dilation effects? This might also explain somewhat how Atium burning works... You're burning actual godmetal, something much more highly invested than anything else, which gives you the ability to see potential futures, something most shards can do. Am I crazy here or does this hold a little water? Should we be starting to think of the powers in all systems as various Surges rebranded?
AlmightyGir Posted December 29, 2024 Author Posted December 29, 2024 (edited) Thinking a little more... If pulling large amounts of investiture causes time to slow, then that makes a certain amount more sense. Cadmium slows time in a bubble, pulling investiture in. So does that mean that Bendalloy speeds time up by *pushing investiture out* of the physical/cognitive realms? This would certainly hold up with the push/pull nature of Allomancy. Edited December 29, 2024 by AlmightyGir
Treamayne Posted December 29, 2024 Posted December 29, 2024 (edited) 23 hours ago, AlmightyGir said: Thinking a little more... If pulling large amounts of investiture causes time to slow, then that makes a certain amount more sense. Cadmium slows time in a bubble, pulling investiture in. So does that mean that Bendalloy speeds time up by *pushing investiture out* of the physical/cognitive realms? This would certainly hold up with the push/pull nature of Allomancy. Please do not double-post. Edit your post to add your new comments. If you have more to add, but are still the most recent post. Please see the Sharder FAQ if you need tips on how to do so (and many other forum tidbits.) 23 hours ago, AlmightyGir said: Does this mean that all forms of investiture on all planets are essentially just the various Surges under different names? Yes~Ish. It's more that Surges are also another name for Fundamental Realmatics. You see Hoid use Lightweaving (Yolish) in both WoK and WoR long before he bonded Design (he then Lampshades the differences in RoW Ch 80) Spoiler Wit made the family appear, working in the yard—the farmer’s wife, who was taller than the farmer. A youth, lanky and assiduous. A daughter who would someday share her mother’s height. A baby who toddled around the yard, tended by them all as they did their chores. “This,” Wit noted, “is almost too easy.” “Too easy?” Kaladin asked, absently taking another bite of stew. “For years, I’ve had to make do with hints of illusions. Suggesting scenes. Leaving most to the imagination. Now, having the power to do more, I find it less satisfying. Basically, what it comes down to is that there are fundamental Realmatics, and many Manifestations of Investiture (MoI) share a variation on those fundamentals. Spoilers (Tress, Elantris, Mistborn, Yumi, Warbreaker) WoBs: Spoiler Elsecalling is a form of teleportation, and the same fundamentals apply whether being done my Oathgate or Aon Tia in Elantris. Awakening is investing sapience or sentience, and uses the same fundamentals whether it is accomplished with Biochromatic Breath, Hion, Stormlight or Feruchemy. Iron and Steel have the realmatic properties of puching and pulling, wether it is Rosharan Fabrials, Allomancy or basic tools of a Sprouter manipulating Aether Spores. Mightnight Essence is related, whether as an Aether, created by Re-Shephir, or a by-product of Father Machine churning out corrupted Souls. Emotion manipulation is lapping a stimulus against the target's cognitive identity and doesn't matter if you use Brass to Soothe, or Odium Soothing Moash's Guilt. Likewise using Zinc to Riot, or a Fused being Rioted by holding Voidlight. WoBs. Quote Edited for Length and Relevance Argent Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place? Brandon Sanderson So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order. Argent And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion? Brandon Sanderson Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense? Argent I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) Quote Edited for Length and Relevance Argent There's smoke involved, there's eating of souls, there's a whole bunch of things. So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine Awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian Awakening? Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere? Brandon Sanderson It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths Awaken, but Breaths are one of the main ways that people see things be Awakened. You should be noticing those parallels, but that's a term that in the Cosmere is becoming genericized to mean un-living object being given some measure of sentience and even sapience by application of Investiture, Commands, and these sorts of things. By this point they've all interacted with various Awakened machines of sorts in the future Cosmere. They know what this means. They've talked to an Awakened computer. Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023) Quote Edited for Length and Relevance Phantine Does that 'inside a body' thing work on most magics? For instance, if Han stuck Luke into a Mistborn Tauntaun (a distant and unlucky relative of the mistborn llama), would Luke be protected from both the cold and emotional allomancy? Brandon Sanderson He'd have to get him inside a living one. It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough. Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening. Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference. /r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015) So, it's a bit of a Chicken and Egg thing - Rosharans know the Surges First, and will interpret other magics from that PoV. From a worldhopper perspective, the only difference between "Fundamental Surges" and "Fundamental Relmatics" is a semantic difference. Hope that helps Edited December 30, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG
AlmightyGir Posted December 29, 2024 Author Posted December 29, 2024 26 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Please do not double-post. Edit your post to add your new comments i fyou have more t oadd, but are still the most recent post. Please see the Sharder FAQ if you need tips on how to do so (and many other forum tidbits.) I'll remember to do so in future, sorry and thank you 1
alder24 Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 22 hours ago, AlmightyGir said: If we see what we understand to be Lightweaving showing up in other places, and as it's been explained in WaT, Surges (unbound) are fundamental forces of the universe. Does this mean that all forms of investiture on all planets are essentially just the various Surges under different names? Including various Allomantic abilities? Kind of. Or rather they are all the same powers of creation, but they manifest differently in different worlds. On Scadrial they manifest as Metallic Arts, on Roshar as Surges. It's possible for more Surges to appear, perception is a factor here. Spoiler Kimbobhi Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's? Brandon Sanderson So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers. Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition. [...] YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. [...] Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Spoiler Argent My understanding of the... spren is that they grant powers based on what they understand to be fundamental? Ish? Brandon Sanderson Ish. I wouldn't 100% go with that. I would say these are the fundamental forces-- They aren't as scientific as our fundamental forces, but I would say it's more than just what the spren view and what the humans view in that case. But they are more philosophical than scientific, in cases. Argent Other cognitive beings, could they-- A spren on Earth. Would it grant electromagnetism surge, for example? Brandon Sanderson That, I would say yes. Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018) Spoiler Argent Spren grant control over Surges because Surges are perceived as fundamental powers on Roshar. Would other Cognitive beings grant different powers based on what they perceive to be fundamental? Such as electromagnetism is on Earth? Brandon Sanderson It is plausible, although this was set up in a specific way. Argent By Honor or Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson RAFO on that. Set up might be the wrong word. There were seeds that caused this to happen the way it did. Argent The Surgebinding thing? Brandon Sanderson Yes, specifically... Those influenced what people perceived as fundamental forces. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) 22 hours ago, AlmightyGir said: In particular, I'm thinking about what has recently been stated about time dilation, and how Retribution caused a bubble around Roshar by pulling so much investiture into the physical/cognitive realms through his new storm. Does this mean that Cadmium/Bendalloy burning results in huge amounts of investiture being pulled into the physical/cognitive realms to cause their dilation effects? This might also explain somewhat how Atium burning works... You're burning actual godmetal, something much more highly invested than anything else, which gives you the ability to see potential futures, something most shards can do. No, that would require ridiculous amounts of investiture. Cadmium and bendalloy specifically manipulate spacetime itself and it's not about the amount of raw investiture that causes time dilation, those metals bend the spacetime around the Misting with minimal power. Otherwise, any time someone burns duralumin would create a time bubble around them, but that's not how it works. Not even a Shardpool produces a noticeable time dilation and that's vastly more investiture than a Misting can get from burning metals. Atium also specifically allows you to see into the Spiritual Realm and it's not something other god metals do (Lerasium modifies your Spirit Web instead). Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) What will an Atium-Lerasium Alloy do ? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Ah, I've been asked this before. There are a number of theories, but nobody's really sure, since there haven't really been any opportunities to alloy lerasium with atium. You can choose which one to believe. Most require an understanding of realmatic theory to comprehend, which you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand.What Lerasium is, is essentially a hack for something like your spiritual DNA. It rewrites what your spiritual self is capable of. So, combined with atium, which allows you a glimpse into the vision of everything - past, present, future - the theories say it could do one of two things. It could either create a substance so volatile that it would have world-ending repercussions, or rewrite your "spiritual DNA" (his phrase, not mine) with atium's power. Is that a vague enough answer? TWG Posts (March 23, 2010) Spoiler Questioner Does the dead body of a Shard pull at time and space, thus causing time to pass slower in that place of the cosmere, almost like a black hole? Brandon Sanderson It could go either way in the Cosmere, depending. But the answer is yes. A large amount, like a deific amount of Investiture will... any amount of Investiture will cause a bit of time dilation, but the amount you're getting from even a Shardpool is not enough to be noticeable. I mean, it is, you can notice it even on our planet if you take a jet that goes fast enough, so it is noticeable but not relevantly noticeable. We're talking about a slippage of a day or so in a year even off of a Shardpool (don't canonize me on that one, I don't have the actual numbers). But that's what we're talking about. There are are chunks of Investiture of deific nature that can cause amounts of time dilation that would be virtually impossible in our universe, without you becoming one with a black hole. There's a story I want to tell, and I don't know if I'll ever get around to telling it, about an entire society that rises and falls in several seconds of time dilation to everyone else. I want to be able to tell stories like that, and you couldn't do that in our universe, but that's part of the reason we have the Cosmere! YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Spoiler Jeremy If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis? Brandon Sanderson No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that. That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people. The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021) 2
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