Did book 5 affect your feelings of the whole series?

[Sedside she/her]

10 hours ago, cvamoca said:

It's now Shards against Shards and people are just bugs- ants to be crushed, and not important.

Agree with you here. I'm also very much concerned about it taking much more cosmere wide turn. As someone absolutely cosmere unaware (Warbreaker and 2 books of Mistborn) I had hard time reading parts of this book. The whole mess between Shards is also absolutely uninteresting to me. When I was starting reading WoK, I thought it was about people in fantastic circumstances. If I knew it will become a superhero comic about gods, I wouldn't have picked it up.

[Soccorro]

23 hours ago, Geoffray said:

Don't you read my last sentence. I'm going way overboard because of what I read on this board. Sorry if the irony is too subtle...

 

Gotcha! I read your last sentence but I didn’t understand what you mean xD

[Geoffray]

2 hours ago, Sedside said:

Agree with you here. I'm also very much concerned about it taking much more cosmere wide turn. As someone absolutely cosmere unaware (Warbreaker and 2 books of Mistborn) I had hard time reading parts of this book. The whole mess between Shards is also absolutely uninteresting to me. When I was starting reading WoK, I thought it was about people in fantastic circumstances. If I knew it will become a superhero comic about gods, I wouldn't have picked it up.

I don't really agree. Could you please specified what was hard to read due to you lack of cosmere awareness? Because sorry but, knowning who Vasher is or why freeing Odium is a big deal is firstly not really important and secondly explain by Hoid in the book. But let's agree to disagree on this point.

The shard wars is (from my point of view) for the Cosmere on the whole. For Roshar, it's something else entierly (resist to Retribution and to the singer, trying to be better whatever happen, etc.) It's not the whole point of the SA.

On the superhero things, it's already there since the beginning no? I mean, the first arrival of the KR in Dalinar's vision is completly an Avenger arrival. So there is that.

[Leuthie]

21 hours ago, cvamoca said:

As someone who despised ROW, this one was better, but I'm old and think I'm done with the series here.  It's now Shards against Shards and people are just bugs- ants to be crushed, and not important.

A group of 4 people saved an entire population of spren, 1 guy forced a Shard to have to protect himself from all of the other Shards to give Roshar some breathing room, 1 guy with a sword killed Shard's vessel and took up the Shard. Stormlight Archive has shown how much power people have over Shards. 

[MagicMaggot]

You can say that the meta-plot of the cosmere is about the problem of having some 10-16 random guys as unbalanced gods, and finding a solution for it. And yeah, the planet that had 3 of those gods was always gonna be a driving force in that plot. But like @Leuthie said, that hardly makes mortals irrelevant. Whatever the solution for the god-problem will be, it is basically guaranteed to be decided by mortals, and with stuff like Scandial's explosives and Roshar's anti-light I'd be surprised if mortals wouldn't have very deadly leverage over shards, before all this is done. That's why there is such a focus on new techs and magics. 

And yeah, Stormlight arc 2 will likely have a lot of that as well. It will get harder to enjoy the regional plot without enjoying the parts of the meta-plot it touches on. Probably better to be clear about that, when making the decision to continue reading, rather than being surprised and unhappy. 

Edited January 8, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[cvamoca]

On 1/8/2025 at 2:07 AM, Sedside said:

Agree with you here. I'm also very much concerned about it taking much more cosmere wide turn. As someone absolutely cosmere unaware (Warbreaker and 2 books of Mistborn) I had hard time reading parts of this book. The whole mess between Shards is also absolutely uninteresting to me. When I was starting reading WoK, I thought it was about people in fantastic circumstances. If I knew it will become a superhero comic about gods, I wouldn't have picked it up.

This is also me. Elantris, Warbreaker, Dawnshard, 2 Mistborn, 2 Cytoverse books and a few short stories but I really don't understand the shards- how sometimes they are called Rayse or Taravangian (I know Rayse was the previous vessel of Odium, yes) but what absolutely charmed me with The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance was the incredibly interesting yet hostile world of Roshar- the animals, the chasms and rocks and Highstorms and most importantly- the people. The subterfuge and politicking. I love Adolin, Kaladin, Shallon most of the time. I adored Bridge 4. Rock made me laugh.  The Lopen's my spirit animal. Never cared for Dalinar past Oathbringer, or Navani, or psycho Jasnah, but part of that is because I'm an audiobook listener and the annoying breathy voice of Navani when read by the male narrator made my hair curl.

This is a fine place to leave the Cosmere for me- I'm 61, 20 yrs from now will 81 yr old me still want to know this world? I gave up on ASOIAF because GRRM will never finish his magnum opus and because the last seasons of the show were so, so bad. I think this series in it's attempt to be even more grand has made it so complicated and messy it doesn't hold the interest like the first 2 books did. Wind and Truth was 62 hours of book- that's about 10 hrs longer than needed, IMO. He needs an editor. One who'll question "Do people really, really need to know in such detail how to create a light they can't use anymore? I did, but it turns out it's moot now.

Don't get me wrong- I  enjoyed this book more than the last 1, but given what I know, now's a good place to stop.

Edited January 9, 2025 by cvamoca
needed to title book correctly

[MagicMaggot]

23 minutes ago, cvamoca said:

turns out it's moot now.

That's a pretty bold prediction for books that haven't been written yet. I would certainly bet on the light-related research still being relevant, even crucial, later, even if it it takes some more time to pay off. And it takes an amount of distrust in the author I find baffling to think otherwise. 

Edited January 9, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[cvamoca]

I'm talking about Stormlight. Are Highstorms coming back in the back half? If not- it's moot.

Why do people take it as a personal affront either to them personally or to BS if we dislike where a series is going, or question Brandon? We excoriate GRRM, but let Sanderson off the hook when he's being messy. I hated Rhythm of War- loathed it, but still like Sanderson and the SA.

[MagicMaggot]

16 minutes ago, cvamoca said:

I'm talking about Stormlight. Are Highstorms coming back in the back half?

You're talking about wasted pages that would have needed an editor. But that isn't necessarily about Stormlight itself, it is about making the time spent on research pay off. So:

1. The research isn't only applicable to Stormlight, so even if it is gone forever, it still isn't moot. Especially the anti-Light-research might easily be transferred to anti-Warlight. 

2. The research might actually be able to create Stormlight from Warlight/Towerlight, so Stormlight could still be relevant through that. 

3. Highstorms actually coming back in some form in the later half isn't impossible, either, though less likely. We still have as much SA before us as we have behind us, and a lot can happen in that time, and splinters of Honor are still around.

Edited January 9, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Sedside she/her]

8 hours ago, cvamoca said:

Why do people take it as a personal affront either to them personally or to BS if we dislike where a series is going, or question Brandon? We excoriate GRRM, but let Sanderson off the hook when he's being messy. I hated Rhythm of War- loathed it, but still like Sanderson and the SA.

This is what amuses me too. You can't simply say anything unpopular here, even if it's your feeling or opinion on a character, not a matter of fact, and not get immediately attacked by 2-3 people telling you that you are wrong and this is not true. When people say that they disliked Dalinar's decision and think it is stupid, it seems like highstorms are back. The book says it's brilliant and here's why! Even despite the explanation is spoonfed three times by the book itself.

9 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

And it takes an amount of distrust in the author I find baffling to think otherwise. 

Actually, I do distrust the author now. He has broken almost every single promise he made to me in the first books. There were a lot of things and decisions I thought were strange, but I hoped that they were just a buildup for WaT, it turned out they were not. Also, why should I trust the author who doesn't trust me? I am reading endless spoonfed explanations of what characters feel and why they feel this way and not the other. I am being constantly told not shown everything. So yeah, I don't trust him anymore.

Edited January 10, 2025 by Sedside
typo

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Sedside said:

This is what amuses me too. You can't simply say anything unpopular here, even if it's your feeling or opinion on a character, not a matter of fact, and not get immediately attacked by 2-3 people telling you that you are wrong and this is not true.

Are you surprised that people discuss things on discussion forum?

Being challenged is not the same as being silenced or attacked, if you have an opinion people disagree with, they are free to let you know (within bounds of polite discussion). If you say something not factual, people are also free to challenge that and raise evidence.

If you just want people agreeing with you, you can tag a post 'Support' as Treamayne helpfully reminds people.

2 hours ago, Sedside said:

Actually, I do distrust the author now. He has broken almost every single promise he made to me in the first books.

What promises he made you that were broken? I am genuinely interested in what you thought you would be getting.

To me, the promise was high-fantasy series based around the (relatively common) trope of "Magic coming back", which is exactly what I got.

2 hours ago, Sedside said:

Also, why should I trust the author who doesn't trust me? I am reading endless spoonfed explanations of what characters feel and why they feel this way and not the other. I am being constantly told not shown everything. So yeah, I don't trust him anymore.

What does trust have to do with 'show don't tell'?

That is completely separate point.


As to the main topic, It seems to me that there are broadly two groups of Stormlight fans:

• Group A: Likes most TWoK and WoR, and less so the next 3 books
• Group B: Likes broadly all, though have complaints to specifics (e.g. writing style) in some books

I'd put myself in group B, personally I find TWoK and WoR to be the weaker books in the series, with Oathbringer the best. I also did enjoy immensely Navani's storyline in RoW, which is somewhat rare (or at least it seemed to me on these forums) as even trying to portray research "onscreen" is quite rare in speculative fiction. WaT to me is reasonable conclusion to what was setup over the previous books, with some twist and turns (didn't expect Dalinar to day for example), so it didn't appreciably affect my feeling on the series so far, no more than previous books.

Edited January 10, 2025 by therunner

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

As to the main topic, It seems to me that there are broadly two groups of Stormlight fans:

• Group A: Likes most TWoK and WoR, and less so the next 3 books
• Group B: Likes broadly all, though have complaints to specifics (e.g. writing style) in some books

They are very different books. The first two are about an ancient evil threatening to destroy a wonderfully rich - though maybe decadent - world.
The next three books show the looming evil actually returning and destroying that world. Other stories would have ended with a last minute heroic saving of the world. In fact Brandon has written that story in The Lost Metal. The first half of the Stormlight archive can be read in many ways, but for the main protagonists of the first two books it is a story of them failing and the world they strove to protect being destroyed.

I am afraid I have to also say that the first two books are in a way more simplistic. Odium is evil, the budding Radiants are good, as they are trying to save something that, though very, very obviously flawed is worth saving.
From Oathbringer onwards that is challenged. Do the Parshendi deserve to win? The question is outright asked and a madman answers it.

Now I could read the first half (SA 1- 5) as a classical tragedy if I wanted to. In that case Jasnah Kholin is Cassandra and the message is that sometimes the extremist is right and you suffer the consequences if you do not listen to them.
Or I could read it as a story of liberation. The alien invaders are beaten and justice is restored, as it ought to be, even at the cost of destroying something rich and beautiful.

Thogh, yes, Rhythm of War and Wind and Truth are in my humble opinion worse books in execution than the earlier three. Hence I personally view Oathbringer as the pinnacle of the first half.

In terms of the progression of the broader story I think Wind and Truth has been a stroke of genius. It looked to me like the Cosmere was about to degenerate into a simple dichtomy of Roshar being the good guys and Kelsier being the evil overlord of the dastardly imperialist Scadrians.
This book has been the turn to the necessary correction.

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They are very different books. The first two are about an ancient evil threatening to destroy a wonderfully rich - though maybe decadent - world.
The next three books show the looming evil actually returning and destroying that world. Other stories would have ended with a last minute heroic saving of the world. In fact Brandon has written that story in The Lost Metal.

Oh am I not saying that the books are the same, just that to me it seems there are those two rather broad categories of readers.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I have to also say that the first two books are in a way more simplistic. Odium is evil, the budding Radiants are good, as they are trying to save something that, though very, very obviously flawed is worth saving.
From Oathbringer onwards that is challenged. Do the Parshendi deserve to win? The question is outright asked and a madman answers it.

I agree with this, basically the first two books set up a simple message, book 3 rug-pulls (original Voidbringers being humans, Kaladin struggling with the fact that Singers are also deserving of protection, etc.) and the last two explore various consequences of that, and continue subverting the more simplistic message.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Thogh, yes, Rhythm of War and Wind and Truth are in my humble opinion worse books in execution than the earlier three. Hence I personally view Oathbringer as the pinnacle of the first half.

I can agree with that.

It felt to me that some moments in RoW and WaT intentioally echo earlier moments, and it rarely worked for me. For example, "You cannot have my pain!" VS "You cannot have my sacrifice".

Edited January 10, 2025 by therunner

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Oh am I not saying that the books are the same, just that to me it seems there are those two rather broad categories of readers.

I am sorry I should have been more explicit. I wanted to say that these categories are the unavoidable outcome of telling two related, but fundamentally different sets of stories. SA 1 & 2 are a prelude to a war, SA 3 - 5 are a war story. It is unavoidable that the readership be divided in their preference based on which kind of stories they like most.

My point was that this does not allow a conclusion back to the quality of the books.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

It felt to me that some moments in RoW and WaT intentioally echo earlier moments, and it rarely worked for me. For example, "You cannot have my pain!" VS "You cannot have my sacrifice".

The whole setup is an echo. I am sorry, but we need to be clear about this. The whole war is to the Radiants like the chasm runs to Bridge Four.

You fight. If you win the battle, the enemies you killed will be back. And in a steady cadence some of your mates won't return. Until, one day, they will return without you.
Only that this time there is no Kaladin to give them hope and eventually lead them to freedom. Kaladin breaks. Yes, he overcomes the breakage, but Kaladin Stormblessed ends Rhythm of War with a pyrrhic victory. He is spent. SA 3 - 5 are the story of a war being lost.

Even Wind and Truth cannot fundamentally alter that. We can discuss whether it ends in a bitter defeat of the Radiants or some kind of inconclusive peace arrived at an insane cost, but a glorious victory it is not.

And that leads to the structural issuess of SA 3 - 5

1. the story about the horrors of war was already told
2. they are a sequence of books about a war that refuse to show us the war. We see the very start and the very end.
3. they are very cruel books. SA 1 - 2 are stories of hope. The others are not. Most popular stories feature a setback in the middle. The first half of SA is the very opposite. Arguably the high point is the rediscovery of Urithiru. It is not enough. Then the tower becomes radiant again in Rhythm of War. Yet ... it ... is ... not ... enough.

SA 4 - 5 are not an echo of SA 1 - 2/3, but they revert it. Sure they are similar, but that is not an echo in the strict sense. Brandon sets up a beautiful garden and then he systematically burns the plants, smashes the benches and salts the earth it stood on. You see the beauty again. But not in a good way. Sure it did not work. It was not supposed to.

[Aredor]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Most popular stories feature a setback in the middle. The first half of SA is the very opposite.

Counter to that, I'd say that the end of wind and truth, and to an extent both RoW and OB, are the setback of a greater whole. We need to remember that this is merely book 5 in a 10-book series. Yeah, it's the end of arc 1, but it's a much reduced impact(?) of an arc. Instead of something like Era 1 that ends quite dramatically and finally, this ends in a massive cliffhanger. Regarding this series as a ten-book one rather than two five-book series is something that I think is very important to narritavely understanding this series. 

Besides this one point, I agree with your quite well stated beliefs. 

[therunner he/him]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The whole setup is an echo. I am sorry, but we need to be clear about this. The whole war is to the Radiants like the chasm runs to Bridge Four.

You fight. If you win the battle, the enemies you killed will be back. And in a steady cadence some of your mates won't return. Until, one day, they will return without you.

Hmm, interesting perspective. It does make sense to view it like that.

Quote

SA 3 - 5 are the story of a war being lost.

I would say even from SA1 it is the story of war being lost, because every book is ended in worse position then it began.

• TWoK: Battle of Tower is a disaster. Dalinar survives, and Kaladin escapes. But Dalinar loses most of his army, and gets only bridgecrews in return.
• WoR: Protagonists lose the Battle of Narak, Singers/Fused/Odium return, though they find Urithiru.
• O: Battle of Theylen field is won and Coalition is saved, but Jah Kaved/Khabranth/Skybreakers switched sides.
• RoW: Tower is saved, but anti-light has gotten into hands of Fused.
• WaT: Losses everywhere.

The war began the moment Gavilar encountered Listeners, it's just that humans didn't know it, which is what caused them to lose. They were fighting from position of ignorance.

I think we just don't notice it as much, because in the first few books, the cost is not paid by the protagonists, but the cost is there. Also, individuals are getting stronger (Radiants progressing) but as a whole, their forces are being depleted faster than Odiums.

Quote

And that leads to the structural issuess of SA 3 - 5

Here I (somewhat) disagree

Quote

1. the story about the horrors of war was already told

2. they are a sequence of books about a war that refuse to show us the war. We see the very start and the very end.

Having smaller element  of the story be variation on the same theme is perfectly valid choice.
And the larger story of SA1-5 is less about horrors of war, as you say, the books don't actually show war that much.

They are about conflict, between emotions and bonds. Characters struggle with they want to do, vs what they should do. Kaladin most prominently in book 2, Dalinar throughout the series, Venli...

Taravangian also, but unlike the protagonists he only claims to do what he should do/must do, but it is always in service of what he wants.

Quote

3. they are very cruel books. SA 1 - 2 are stories of hope. The others are not.

I disagree, To me all the books are about hope.

Oathbringer is very much of hope, hope and compassion stays Jasnah's hand, hope that he can be something better lets Dalinar refuse Odium.

Rhythm of War is also of hope, Navani hopes to work with Raboniel to end the war, and in the end in the smallest of ways succeeded (when Raboniel defended her against Moash, enabling Navani to bond the Tower). Kaladin inspires hope in people of Urithiru (the Shash symbol).

And Wind and Truth is also about hope, we even get a monologue on that in the beginning. Dalinar does what he does because he hopes it will enable better solution then just prolonging the cycle of Desolations. Adolin stakes everything on hope, and is rewarded when Maya returns. Sigzil gets everything on a crazy gambit and it works.

It is telling that the one character who loses in the worst fashion with no silver lining (Jasnah) is the one who explicitly denounces hope.

Hope is more important when things are going poorly not less, in certain languages there is a saying "Hope dies last", because it is important to hold on to it.

Quote

Most popular stories feature a setback in the middle. The first half of SA is the very opposite

Well, SA1-5 are only half of the story, so of course they don't necessarily follow that structure.

When looking at how the series as whole will be, end of SA5 is the middle, and then the setback is placed appropriately.

SA5 was never the endpoint of the full story, only a pause. It can be considered the end of the Dalinar's story, story that began the night Gavilar died and Dalinar decided to seek out Nightwatcher, and yes it is a tragic story. It is also an endpoint for Kaladin's character development, he has overcome his demons, and is now finally in a healthy place.


 

Edited January 11, 2025 by therunner

[+Oltux72 he/him]

38 minutes ago, therunner said:

• WoR: Protagonists lose the Battle of Narak, Singers/Fused/Odium return, though they find Urithiru.

Yes. That was the last time Odium could have been stopped at least temporarily. If the battle of Narak had gone better for the Alethi, Dalinar might have stopped the Everstorm then and there.

41 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think we just don't notice it as much, because in the first few books, the cost is not paid by the protagonists, but the cost is there. Also, individuals are getting stronger (Radiants progressing) but as a whole, their forces are being depleted faster than Odiums.

I am afraid I have to say that this is hindsight speaking. That is the basic conundrum which became fully clear only in Oathbringer.

43 minutes ago, therunner said:

I disagree, To me all the books are about hope.

Oathbringer is very much of hope, hope and compassion stays Jasnah's hand, hope that he can be something better lets Dalinar refuse Odium.

Psychologically and thematically, yes. I was imprecise. I should have said that until the Battle of Narak hope had a much better foundation in reality than afterwards.

45 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well, SA1-5 are only half of the story, so of course they don't necessarily follow that structure.

When looking at how the series as whole will be, end of SA5 is the middle, and then the setback is placed appropriately.

 

4 hours ago, Aredor said:

Counter to that, I'd say that the end of wind and truth, and to an extent both RoW and OB, are the setback of a greater whole. We need to remember that this is merely book 5 in a 10-book series. Yeah, it's the end of arc 1, but it's a much reduced impact(?) of an arc. Instead of something like Era 1 that ends quite dramatically and finally, this ends in a massive cliffhanger. Regarding this series as a ten-book one rather than two five-book series is something that I think is very important to narritavely understanding this series.

Well, I must say that I believe that Retribution has been introduced to stay. Hence I am biased.
Wind and Truth has destroyed so much, that even if things can improve, the whole cannot be fully fixed anymore. The Stormfather is dead. Cultivation has fled.

Hence, like it or not, I believe the next arc will be about how to survive the change and how to reintegrate with a Roshar ruled by Singers. And in addition, Shallan in an act of supreme stupidity Dalinar tolerated has started a war with Scadrial. Frankly he should have arrested her on a charge of treason.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

Having smaller element  of the story be variation on the same theme is perfectly valid choice.
And the larger story of SA1-5 is less about horrors of war, as you say, the books don't actually show war that much.

It is a perfectly valid choice, but a choice with drawbacks.

In particular Brandon is managing to write multiple books whose foreground topic is war, but refuses to write much about war in SA 4 and 5. That is understandable, as he already did write about war in form of the story of Bridge Four, but he still made a promise he did not keep. Even when he writes about war, we get a sanitized version.
For instance the refugees we see do not suffer from malnutrition or epidemics and we see little of the general lawlessness war brings with itself and its consequences.

Instead Rhythm of War  is essentilly a retelling of "Die Hard" and "Oppenheimer". I personally loved seeing Navani applying scientific principles, but I am aware that that is a minority preference.
Yes, we got Jasnah turning into the Radiant equivalent of carpet bombing with napalm, but even in that regard SA 1 & 2 were better. You see the issue? The first two books and to an extent Oathbringer have war, but the books about a war do not (Kaladin fighting in Urithiru is not war, that is a single man's fight - a different thing).

In fact Wind and Truth goes so deeply into the metaphorical that it has very little plot. Parts of the book are literally a discussion on philosophy substituted for a plot. I bow to Brandon because he did that so well that I found it interesting, but again - a minority taste I am afraid.

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I have to say that this is hindsight speaking. That is the basic conundrum which became fully clear only in Oathbringer.

Well, yes.

We are judging the previous books on the basis of what we know happened later.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Psychologically and thematically, yes. I was imprecise. I should have said that until the Battle of Narak hope had a much better foundation in reality than afterwards.

Ah, fair enough. On that we are in agreement it seems.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, I must say that I believe that Retribution has been introduced to stay. Hence I am biased.
Wind and Truth has destroyed so much, that even if things can improve, the whole cannot be fully fixed anymore. The Stormfather is dead. Cultivation has fled.

Fair enough, though I don't think so. Why I think that is three fold:

• It was introduced that power can leave Vessel
• It was setup that Power of Honor will be learning
• (out of Stormlight) Harmony will likely change to Discord

So I think the setup is that power of Honor will be learning, and will end up either leaving Taravangian, or will shift the Intent to something more benign. Though this is likely only for the near end of the series.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Hence, like it or not, I believe the next arc will be about how to survive the change and how to reintegrate with a Roshar ruled by Singers.

I think that will be large theme yes, Renarin+Rlain, and fact that Renarin will be one of main characters cements that.

But I don't think that will be all there will be to it, as Herelds will also get more focus, suggesting certain role.

Quote

And in addition, Shallan in an act of supreme stupidity Dalinar tolerated has started a war with Scadrial. Frankly he should have arrested her on a charge of treason.

Not really, if anything, Ghostbloods started that first, with their meddling. Plus Rosharan cell was on verge of going rogue.

The call Shallan had with Kelsier was mostly cordial, more establishing that Roshar should be off limits to them.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It is a perfectly valid choice, but a choice with drawbacks.

Perfectly fine opinion to have.

Quote

In particular Brandon is managing to write multiple books whose foreground topic is war, but refuses to write much about war in SA 4 and 5.
...
Yes, we got Jasnah turning into the Radiant equivalent of carpet bombing with napalm, but even in that regard SA 1 & 2 were better. You see the issue? The first two books and to an extent Oathbringer have war, but the books about a war do not (Kaladin fighting in Urithiru is not war, that is a single man's fight - a different thing).

I disagree on that. War takes many forms, not just battles.

RoW was in effect a siege from within, plus the opening chapters were an entire military operation (evacuation of Hearthstone), and there is the Emul offensive as you mention.

WaT is basically nothing but war, what with Battle of Azir, and Battle of Shattered Plains, where we see both full Invested battle and also how even non-Invested soldiers can hold with good tactics.

Quote

For instance the refugees we see do not suffer from malnutrition or epidemics and we see little of the general lawlessness war brings with itself and its consequences.

Well, epidemics have at least the explanation in the heavily Invested nature of Roshar, even though I admit that can be considered copout. But frankly these details are omitted in most epic high fantasy.

He primarily focuses on how war traumatizes mentally, and that is a theme that is heavily explored, including with the refugees in RoW.

Quote

Instead Rhythm of War  is essentilly a retelling of "Die Hard" and "Oppenheimer". I personally loved seeing Navani applying scientific principles, but I am aware that that is a minority preference.

Somewhat, though there is more than just that.
Happy to see someone concrete who also loved Navani's storyline.

Quote

In fact Wind and Truth goes so deeply into the metaphorical that it has very little plot. Parts of the book are literally a discussion on philosophy substituted for a plot. I bow to Brandon because he did that so well that I found it interesting, but again - a minority taste I am afraid.

Oddly, though I agree that a lot of book is more about philosophy, I also think it is the most plot heavy to date, and to some extant to detriment of overall quality.

Interesting how we can have such different read of it.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Oddly, though I agree that a lot of book is more about philosophy, I also think it is the most plot heavy to date, and to some extant to detriment of overall quality.

Interesting how we can have such different read of it.

Here, I think we come to the core issue of Wind and Truth. If we look at the plot lines

• Azimir: Good old decision by combat. Strategy features. But not philosophy.
• Shattered Plains: The combat aspect is in the end rendered superfluous. It is solved by a legal and political trick.
• Thaylenah: Nothing is really done. It is resolved by talking
• Cleansing of Shinovar: Subverted. In a sense Szeth was really truthless.
• Dalinar's plotline: He doesn't really do anything until the very end. He views visions of things being done.

And the last point is important. If you view the visions in the Spritual Realm as plot, yep, extreme amounts of plot. If you see them as a gigantic lore dump, little immediately meaningful plot in the book.

I can give no logical reason for one or the other view.

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Here, I think we come to the core issue of Wind and Truth. If we look at the plot lines

• Azimir: Good old decision by combat. Strategy features. But not philosophy.
• Shattered Plains: The combat aspect is in the end rendered superfluous. It is solved by a legal and political trick.
• Thaylenah: Nothing is really done. It is resolved by talking
• Cleansing of Shinovar: Subverted. In a sense Szeth was really truthless.
• Dalinar's plotline: He doesn't really do anything until the very end. He views visions of things being done.

And the last point is important. If you view the visions in the Spritual Realm as plot, yep, extreme amounts of plot. If you see them as a gigantic lore dump, little immediately meaningful plot in the book.

I can give no logical reason for one or the other view.

All you write is true, I'll just offer some of my additional perspectives on few of these

• Azimir: Also some small amounts of philosophy/strategy: introduces Sun Maker's gambit, both develops and challenges Adolin's perspective on what is right, setups Azir for Arc 2
• Shattered Plains: I don't see the combat as superfluous, but I can see why you can see it that way. It shows the sometimes victory is not possible, and you have to involve a third party and think sideways (later echoed with Dalinar)
• Cleansing: I'd say double subverted. Szeth both was Truthless, Desolation didn't (yet) come back and there was no Unmade, that is the subversion. But then it is shown that Ishar was corrupted by Odium's Investiture (which is at least part of the Unmaking process), so in a sense there was Odium's influence. Basically, Szeth was somewhat right, and somewhat wrong, which I think nicely plays into his core problem.

I view many of the above as 'plot', including Jasnah (as it sets her up for her character arc in Arc 2 presumably), but again, that is just my opinion on the matter, and I can see your angle.

As a sidenote, I enjoy this discussion quite a bit, you gave me some interesting perspectives to think about.

Edited January 12, 2025 by therunner

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I view many of the above as 'plot', including Jasnah (as it sets her up for her character arc in Arc 2 presumably),

It is plot, but

• it is not plot about war in the strict sense
• it is secondary plot. Presumably it will become important. In Wind and Truth only setting Ba-Ado-Mishram free mattered in a peripheral sense
• almost everything is subverted, indeed doubly so - for no good reason. At least no good reason apparent to a reader now. (Except the Jasnah plot)

I am sorry, but Brandon wrote a series of five books about a war. They included a prelude to war, the start of the war and the end.

Suppose you wrote about WW1. Your series has the assassination in Sarajevo, the Battle on the Marne and then you switch to the failing German offensive of 1918 and the subsequent armistice. You see the issue? It is structural.

21 hours ago, therunner said:

He primarily focuses on how war traumatizes mentally, and that is a theme that is heavily explored, including with the refugees in RoW.

And again that is a structural problem, because he had already done so. If the bridge runs of The Way of Kings don't convey that message, nothing will. The message had been delivered - with triplicate carbon copies.
Seriously, that book was Brandon's version of "All quiet on the Western Front". No need to add any message on the horrors of war. In fact if you do, you'll bore the reader, worse, you risk undermining the masterpiece you already wrote.

And that leads back to Wind and Truth. It is about a clash of ideas. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is put into a book that should be about a clash of armies or superheroes.

There is no logical reason given for Dalinar's conviction that there will be no physical battle. And I am sorry, that is a plot hole, plain and simple. Instead we get Dalinar viewing visions. Try as I might, this is not true plot. Nobody is acting. These are basically recordings that are viewed.

Now, sure that is not the only thing that happens in the book. But it is the core of the book.

As I write this, I am beginning to wonder why the book worked so well. And it did. I spent a weekend with an unhealthily low amount of sleep on it.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

There is no logical reason given for Dalinar's conviction that there will be no physical battle. And I am sorry, that is a plot hole, plain and simple.

I wouldn't say so, not having a logical reason for something is not a plot hole, just human nature.
Dalinar conviction is that the battle will be superfluous, because well, why would being so much smarter and knowledgeable than him play it straight?

Ascending to the same level as Odium, or at least getting better understanding of both him and Honor, was something he hoped would close the gap.

Edit: accidentally submitted before finishing

Quote

I am sorry, but Brandon wrote a series of five books about a war. They included a prelude to war, the start of the war and the end.

Suppose you wrote about WW1. Your series has the assassination in Sarajevo, the Battle on the Marne and then you switch to the failing German offensive of 1918 and the subsequent armistice. You see the issue? It is structural.

I simply don't agree that the series was primarily about war, war was an aspect of it, but not the core.

The battles we do see challenge protagonists in some way, which not every battle will.

Quote

And again that is a structural problem, because he had already done so. If the bridge runs of The Way of Kings don't convey that message, nothing will. The message had been delivered - with triplicate carbon copies.
Seriously, that book was Brandon's version of "All quiet on the Western Front". No need to add any message on the horrors of war. In fact if you do, you'll bore the reader, worse, you risk undermining the masterpiece you already wrote.

Bridge crews never fought, it was very different sort of stress to what soldier would experience.
It is horrible yes, but in different way than what e.g. fall of Kholinar is.

Quote

And that leads back to Wind and Truth. It is about a clash of ideas. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is put into a book that should be about a clash of armies or superheroes.

I always saw the series as clash between ideas, not just armies/superheroes fighting.

And frankly, everything not in SR is just three battles:

• One fought with just strength of arms (Azir)
• One fought with arms and subterfuge/misdirection (Narak)
• One fought not with arms, but with words (Theylen)
  • Negotiations are important part of any conflict, if you can strip your opponent of allies without fighting, that is the best move you can make.

 

Edited January 12, 2025 by therunner

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

I wouldn't say so, not having a logical reason for something is not a plot hole, just human nature.

Not if dozens of people who have a good reason to say something stay silent.

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

Dalinar conviction is that the battle will be superfluous, because well, why would being so much smarter and knowledgeable than him play it straight?

Because it would work. The need to demonstrate your own superior intellect is a weakness independent of other capabilities. Rayse may have been so vain. As soon as you know that Rayse is no longer the vessel, assuming anything is just stupid.

[therunner he/him]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Not if dozens of people who have a good reason to say something stay silent.

Dalinar is challenged on that decision, they just also know that once he decides on something, they won't change his mind.

Quote

Because it would work. The need to demonstrate your own superior intellect is a weakness independent of other capabilities. Rayse may have been so vain. As soon as you know that Rayse is no longer the vessel, assuming anything is just stupid.

If you mean against Rayse, then yes, there it would likely "work", though it would again just prolong the cycle of Desolations.

Once you know Rayse is no longer the vessel, knowing capabilities of the Shard and looking for other options becomes much more important than previously.

[Aon Tia she/her]

On 1/10/2025 at 12:16 PM, therunner said:

As to the main topic, It seems to me that there are broadly two groups of Stormlight fans:

• Group A: Likes most TWoK and WoR, and less so the next 3 books
• Group B: Likes broadly all, though have complaints to specifics (e.g. writing style) in some books

I'd put myself in group B, personally I find TWoK and WoR to be the weaker books in the series, with Oathbringer the best. I also did enjoy immensely Navani's storyline in RoW, which is somewhat rare (or at least it seemed to me on these forums) as even trying to portray research "onscreen" is quite rare in speculative fiction. WaT to me is reasonable conclusion to what was setup over the previous books, with some twist and turns (didn't expect Dalinar to day for example), so it didn't appreciably affect my feeling on the series so far, no more than previous books.

agree with you completely. 

I too feel that Twok for me, although a great book to start a seroes, but is my least favourite. The scale is smaller with promise to become bigger as series progresses which is exactly what it was supposed to be. OB is my ultimate favourite book followed by book 2,4 & 5 as very close 2nds. 

I too loved the Navani Science part in RoW although while reading it also I knew that a lot of the readers might not enjot it as much as I did. and thats fair too. 

At the end, every one is entitled to their own opinions, and as the fandom grows, there will always be many who will love the series and many who will not. 

Going more cosmere forward as the series progresses is what I expected and wanted from the SA books. 

Changing the whole ecosystem of Roshar, magic system etc which is so much loved by the readers, is a big risk that he took, I think it paid off. 

On 1/10/2025 at 12:16 AM, cvamoca said:

I did, but it turns out it's moot now.

 Anti-light research could easily be the building blocks of anti-investiture research and will be useful everywhere in the cosmere. Ghostbloods have the research, they are not restricted to Roshar, they can continue the work on it and make use of it going forwards.