Has the Fourth Shard got something to do with the Unoathed?

[Irish Truthwatcher]

Since I've finished wind and truth, I can't help feeling like the unoathed have something to do with "the fourth shard." 

I won't go through every tidbit of what I perceive to be evidence, but I have this gut instinct.

Anyways, after reading a bunch of posts on this thread, I'm fairly convinced that the shard influencing the unoathed is Valor. Her intent seems to line up well with the situation this group find themselves in, stranded and besieged behind enemy lines, sounds fairly valorous to me! I believe that Azir could also be serving as a parallel to Valors own situation. The last beacon of resistance left outside of urithiru in the Rosharan system. While Valor remains the last (hidden) shard left in the system working against odiums influence.

As well as this, I find that Adolin is the perfect character to represent valor within the text. He's brave, an incredible warrior, and explores what it means to do good for the sake of people, not ideals. All of which align with my own interpretation of Valor. I think Valor also works the best thematically as a shard on Roshar. A planet that has seen near constant war for eons. There's a process of elimination to consider too, we'll subtract the shards we already know are invested or splintered, leaving us with... 

1. Valor

2. Invention 

3. Mercy 

4. Whimsy 

5. Reason 

Of these five shards, I find it hard to think of one which is more suitable for the rosharan system than Valor, I can see the possibility that it could be invention or maybe reason, but those are outside bets. 

This is my first post on the forum, so feel free to poke holes in my logic! The Azimir plotline just really got the wheels in my head spinning.

 

Edited January 9, 2025 by Irish Truthwatcher

[Muffinman31715]

I think valor fits really well, but if there is a shard influencing the unoathed, we can narrow down which shard it would be further. If there is a fourth shard on roshar it needs to be one of the two that taravangian could not find when he ascended to odium, otherwise he would know of it. We know Valor is one of these, and while the other one is not confirmed, it’s likely Reason, as we know they managed to hide well enough that other shards like honor could not find them. 

I think that reason could also fit the unoathed as well, less for the situation they are in but more for what they stand for. It seems like they could follow reason rather than oaths, deciding what’s best in the moment based on the facts rather than following some decision they made a long time ago without knowing the situations they would face.

As for Valor, I think it also fits, however Endowment states that she and Valor are the only shards who maintain some degree of separation. I don’t know if Endowment would consider hiding on a planet with three other shards to be separation, but I could also see it being considered separation if Valor is not purposefully interfering, which we have no evidence of until now.

Speaking of interfering, it seems like this 4th shard has not purposefully interfered in anything until now, which is another reason why it could be the shard of Reason, as Brandon has stated that Reason has realized that survival may not be the most important/desirable goal, so it could be that at first it was hiding, but has since decided it needed to do something for some reason and is now interfering through the unoathed.

I don’t know, I like the idea that the unoathed are somehow related to the 4th shard, but I think it could be Valor or Reason for different reasons. (Reason is a really annoying shard name to talk about).

[cosmeredoug_30]

I know a lot of people are talking about Valor or Reason possibly being the fourth shard. Personally I think it's Reason but I can see how Valor fits with Roshar's themes. 

I kind of understood the recovery of the deadeyes to be a result of Ba-Ado-Mishram's release rather than the interference of another Shard? The theme with the sentient Unmade seems to be that they care much more for the neutral parties in the war. Sja-anat wants to 'free' spren from obligation to their oaths, though without them turning fully to Odium. Mishram wants peace in general for everyone, although she has a bias to singers and would choose them if it came down to it. She clearly identified with the actions of the Listeners a great deal, who again are sort of a neutral party. 

So I kind of see the deadeyes' recovery as something Mishram may be influencing as a way to produce spren who understand the faults of Honor intimately while also being against Odium. Spren who can produce the human equivalent of Regals - Shardbearers without surges - since those were the forms Mishram was able to grant. Not to mention that the Unoathed seem to hold greater importance in doing general good and keeping promises - something that probably resonated with Mishram, who was betrayed by everyone.

4 minutes ago, Muffinman31715 said:

think that reason could also fit the unoathed as well, less for the situation they are in but more for what they stand for. It seems like they could follow reason rather than oaths, deciding what’s best in the moment based on the facts

This reply showed up while I was mid-reply lmao so I actually really like this idea too. If it was a Shard and not Mishram, I would be inclined to agree with this reasoning. 

[Muffinman31715]

7 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

I kind of understood the recovery of the deadeyes to be a result of Ba-Ado-Mishram's release rather than the interference of another Shard? 

The way I see it, the recovery of the deadeyes and the formation of the unoathed don’t have to be connected. I don’t even think the unoathed need to be involved with a shard or anything. After all, stuff was happening with Adolin and Maya in oathbringer way before the recovery of the dead eyes. Even if the unoathed are only possible through ba-ado-mishrams release and somehow she was healing the dead eyes before she was fully free, I don’t see any reason why she or anyone would have to be involved in the formation of the unoathed. There is obviously some kind of bond from how Adolin and Maya can see through each other’s eyes, but it could be something to do with bonding a shardblade, or just something the spren decides to do. I mean, their name implies that they don’t follow anyone/anything, so I could see them as a group without any kind of shard or higher power leading them, just a group that follows their own moral compass.

I do think that the freeing of ba-ado-mishram made it easier for that bond to form as the dead eyes are now healed, but I don’t know that she is behind it. You also bring up some good points about how she could be influencing the creation of the unoathed, so I could see how that could be the case as well.

However, I do think that if there really is a 4th shard on Roshar, and they are trying to influence things, then it’s likely that they somehow influenced the creation of the unoathed even if they don’t directly facilitate it.

[cosmeredoug_30]

5 minutes ago, Muffinman31715 said:

After all, stuff was happening with Adolin and Maya in oathbringer way before the recovery of the dead eyes

I think I'd much rather that it was this way as it would give more autonomy and choice to people and spren about how their bonds and connections manifest, as choice is obviously a big theme for the Deadeyes. However, I also want there to be some outside explanation as, without it, the magic system becomes very soft. Maybe if it had been leading this way since the start, it would be less jarring but RoW was very enjoyable for me due to the science behind the magic that solidified it as a hard system.

I'm hoping it is some mix, some entity influencing but not causing the creation of the Unoathed. One thing that seems slightly weird is that Adolin won Maya as a youth. I'm not sure how old Adolin actually is but he seems to be in his early 20s. Considering Alethi contexts, my headcanon says Adolin was maybe 14 or 15 when he won Maya, although he could easily have been 17 or 18. Still, there's at least a good 5 yrs or so where Adolin treated Maya the same as he has the whole series, yet their bond only began to form in Oathbringer (I think, may have been WoR). Regardless, something seems to have triggered the Unoathed bond.

And considering Mishram only began manifesting in Shallan's drawings in this book, that makes me think her prison only recently broke. The Spiritual Realm has weird time stuff going on so perhaps Melishi only died in recent years, and so Mishram's prison only broke in recent years, allowing the Unoathed bonds to begin forming. Then again, Shallan's newfound perception of Mishram may have been a result of her advanced oaths rather than the timeline of Mishram's release but I suppose nobody can be sure.

[DSCrankshaw]

Personally, I think the Deadeyes had less to do with Mishram than with Honor's betrayal of Mishram. Thus righting that betrayal began to bring about their recovery.

As for why Maya's recovery began recently, I think it had to do with the fact that Adolin traveled to Shadesmar and met her. He always talked to his sword, always sort of perceived it as alive, but he didn't really begin to understand her until he met her, and began to see her as a person. I think that and his desire to make a Connection with her had more to do with it than any outside force. (Something he is unusually good at doing with everyone.)

[Nitpicking]

12 hours ago, DSCrankshaw said:

As for why Maya's recovery began recently, I think it had to do with the fact that Adolin traveled to Shadesmar and met her. He always talked to his sword, always sort of perceived it as alive, but he didn't really begin to understand her until he met her, and began to see her as a person. I think that and his desire to make a Connection with her had more to do with it than any outside force. (Something he is unusually good at doing with everyone.)

You're sort of implying that Adolin will become the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith. (She's the megaspren who presumably accepted Edgedancer Oaths. Adolin is bound to an Edgedancer spren. Connection is the characteristic of Bondsmiths.)

[DSCrankshaw]

Perhaps. Connection isn't just a Bondsmith thing. Bondsmiths can manipulate Connections, but everyone forms Connections. Forming them is something Adolin is good at, which implies he'd be a good Bondsmith, but not necessarily that he will be.

It is true that many of the weird things that happen around him, such as forming a new type of bond with Maya, bonding with his Shardplate, creating a bond with the lost Shardblades, even bonding with Gallant when Rhyshadium aren't supposed to accept new riders, seem like Bondsmith things. But the way he goes about it, by forming relationships, caring for those around him and winning them over,  doesn't look very supernatural. Perhaps we are seeing a more organic form of Bondsmithing.

Edited December 31, 2024 by DSCrankshaw

[Nitpicking]

7 hours ago, DSCrankshaw said:

It is true that many of the weird things that happen around him, such as forming a new type of bond with Maya, bonding with his Shardplate, creating a bond with the lost Shardblades, even bonding with Gallant when Rhyshadium aren't supposed to accept new riders, seem like Bondsmith things. But the way he goes about it, by forming relationships, caring for those around him and winning them over,  doesn't look very supernatural. Perhaps we are seeing a more organic form of Bondsmithing.

There's the thing the Sibling always worries about: consent. Ishar in particular was forcing Connection a lot, but even artifabrians were doing small-scale versions with lesser spren.

Maybe Adolin could become a Bondsmith the Tower could wholeheartedly support. If it had a heart.

[Irish Truthwatcher]

On 12/29/2024 at 10:01 PM, Muffinman31715 said:

 

Speaking of interfering, it seems like this 4th shard has not purposefully interfered in anything until now, which is another reason why it could be the shard of Reason, as Brandon has stated that Reason has realized that survival may not be the most important/desirable goal, so it could be that at first it was hiding, but has since decided it needed to do something for some reason and is now interfering through the unoathed.

 

That's a good point! Maybe Reason has come to the logical conclusion that acting is the only way to survive at this stage of the game. Sort of like an end to the Shards appeasement of Odium. ( Slight tangent here but the whole reaction to Odiums release really reminded me of the build up to WW2 in our own universe.) This also made me think about how Tanavast described Roshar. He put a lot of emphasis on how Roshars creation was based around equations and that sort of thing, that kind of symmetry could've pulled a shard like Reason towards the system.

[Duneye]

Personally, I would love to see Valor show up and be the 4th shard. Of all the shards, Valor makes the most sense to me to back the Unoathed since they were literally standing against insurmountable odds before the deadeyes saved the day. Infiltrating the palace while the enemy surrounds them, every one of the people on that mission embodied valor to a T. But the more I think about it the less it makes sense. If Valor is the 4th shard, why would they wait so long to interfere? Kind of goes against their Intent IMO.

Reason, on the other hand, would make far more logical sense as the 4th shard. Getting involved in the conflict between Honor and Odium would be dangerous, and Reason would stay out of it because of that. I also think that Reason would seek Roshar out in particular because of the fourth moon which was apparently made of some kind of "super aluminum" that blocks even Shards' vision. It would make a perfect hiding place for them to wait out and avoid any inter-shard conflicts. In my head canon, as soon as the 16 took up their shards Reason ran directly to Roshar, sequestering themselves inside the fallen moon before Honor and Cultivation even show up. Maybe they spent all that time hiding gazing into the Spiritual Realm, trying to make sense of their future-sight. Maybe they felt the brief battle between DHonor and TOdium, or saw the possibility of the Shards fighting and were worried another event like the shattering of Natanatan would happen and their hiding place would be revealed, so now they're getting involved covertly

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

My issue with any Shard other than our 3 main peeps in Roshar is that there's no effects that we've ever seen manifest on the planet in any way. Even if the Shard was hiding, having that much Investiture means that power will manifest somewhere even if the vessel is deliberately masking its presence. Having another Shard in Roshar, whoever it is, would require either pushing nearly all of their power into the Spiritual Realm or having a base outside the system and likely out the way of any sapient species. If they are doing that much to hide that leaves no power to influence the conflict in any meaningful way. Plugging into a magic system and modifying something that already exists would be easier than cobbling up something from scratch but still probably something Herald level to accomplish, hard for something like that to go under the radar.

Besides, something like the UnOathed could be accomplished without any Shardic intervention as long as Connection is there. Humans have been pushing the boundaries of Honor's power even before Tanavast fell. 

That being said, the 4th Moon did fall. There is something there. A Shard could have been lurking using some method by which we have yet to be introduced. I don't like it but I don't have to. If I must pick a Shard, I'd go Valor over Reason. Adolin has 0 connection to anything that resembles Reason. He has been valorous many times, has been since he was a kid. Is that enough to form a Connection? Maybe. At least more than Reason IMO.

[Irish Truthwatcher]

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

 

Besides, something like the UnOathed could be accomplished without any Shardic intervention as long as Connection is there. Humans have been pushing the boundaries of Honor's power even before Tanavast fell. 

 

 This is the best argument against a fourth shards presence on Roshar to be fair. But I feel like there are some clues towards the presence of a fourth shard particularly in wind and truth, that can't be ignored. Notums description of a feminine voice encouraging him to make the leap into the physical realm, the description of the investiture binding together the plate of the unoathed, there was also the description of the bravery Taravangium felt when he killed Rayse, that description always stood out to me as odd. 

However I actually think another argument for the presence of a fourth shard on roshar is a mathematical one, there is an obsession with symmetry in the Rosharan system, the whole planet is one big equation, there's just something in the back of my mind that tells me based on this, along with the four pure tones of the Chasmfiends, that there has to be at least an avatar of a fourth shard present in the system.

[RedBlue]

I feel like getting Valor involved in the Unoathed would be contrary to Adolin’s character arc in WaT.

In this book, Adolin digs into the reason he hasn’t bonded a spren. It’s not just a lack of opportunity — Adolin has had four books to make an opportunity — it’s that Adolin fundamentally takes issue with formalised systems of oaths. He respects that it works for other people, but he doesn’t want a rigid framework or rules imposed on a bond by a third party (a Shard or representative of a Shard). He wants to make promises on his own terms, and the humans or spren those promises are made to can accept them on their own terms.

The Connections between the Unoathed and their Blades and Plate seem naturally occurring. It grew organically from Adolin and Maya’s relationship, according to cosmere natural laws.

I think adding a Shard to the mix at this point is unnecessary, and undermines some of Adolin’s growth to an extent. 

[DSCrankshaw]

4 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I feel like getting Valor involved in the Unoathed would be contrary to Adolin’s character arc in WaT.

In this book, Adolin digs into the reason he hasn’t bonded a spren. It’s not just a lack of opportunity — Adolin has had four books to make an opportunity — it’s that Adolin fundamentally takes issue with formalised systems of oaths. He respects that it works for other people, but he doesn’t want a rigid framework or rules imposed on a bond by a third party (a Shard or representative of a Shard). He wants to make promises on his own terms, and the humans or spren those promises are made to can accept them on their own terms.

The Connections between the Unoathed and their Blades and Plate seem naturally occurring. It grew organically from Adolin and Maya’s relationship, according to cosmere natural laws.

I think adding a Shard to the mix at this point is unnecessary, and undermines some of Adolin’s growth to an extent. 

I agree. The Unoathed, at least as they initially appear, can be naturally explained by Adolin forging a Connection with Maya, and she in turn renewing her Connections with the Radiant spren whom she knew before the Recreance, in particular the Lost spren who had no other Connection, not even to human Shardbearers. Then they could use that Connection to come to the physical realm, similar to the Nahel bond, or perhaps more like the Shardblade-Shardbearer bond, but stronger, because the spren were willing partners. As I said previously, making Connections is not just a Bondsmith thing, though you could look at it as an organic form of Bondsmithing.

Now the fact that they were able to continue after Retribution's formation broke normal Shardblades and Shardplate may require more explanation. Maya thinks it's a side effect of what the Heralds did, but that sounds like a guess, and I'd like to propose an alternate theory:

• Before giving up Honor, Dalinar thought of those with whom he was Connected showing honor in ways the Shard Honor couldn't understand.
  • "'Almost ...' Dalinar said. 'The power needs time to learn, and ways to experience the lessons to change, but I can't give them either. [...]' The answer was so close. Today, Dalinar had seen true honor. As Adolin stood for Azir, and Renarin set right a terrible wrong. As Jasnah picked herself up from failure, and Shallan rose above what had been done to her. And Kaladin ... Blood of my fathers, Dalinar thought, realizing. Kaladin will preserve a piece ... That's what we need ..." (WaT, Chapter 142, p. 1277), 
• After he gave up Honor, Dalinar told the Shard that it needed to learn, but that he couldn't be the one to teach it. 
  • "There are still lessons to learn, stories to tell, but you cannot learn them with me. For you are not Honor. Not yet. Honor is far more than an oath kept. Learn, see, and remember me, Dalinar told it. Ask yourself why." (WaT, Chapter 143, p. 1283)
• Finally, as Taravangian took up Honor, Dalinar saw pieces of it break off unexpectedly.
  • "Go, Dalinar said. Watch. Learn. The power accepted Taravangian at Dalinar's urging. Though interestingly, a few small pieces of it split off and fled. Dalinar had not expected that." (WaT, Chapter 143, p. 1284)

Where did those Splinters of Honor go? Most people think they went to reforge the Oathpact, to form Kaladin's Honorspear, and to empower Syl, but I'd like to propose that they went to all the people Dalinar was thinking of, whom he believed could teach Honor about other forms of honor. Kaladin was one of them, but so were Shallan, Jasnah, Renarin and Rlain, and ... Adolin. So I suspect that the Unoathed may be empowered by a Splinter of Honor that wishes to learn what honor means without Oaths.

Edited January 5, 2025 by DSCrankshaw
Changed formatting, added cites.

[Nitpicking]

You just gave me my Crank Theory of the Day!

Shallan recombining with her alters is foreshadowing of various Splinters rejoining with Honor, bringing back all the lessons they learned as spren. The new, less rigid Honor will be the combination of all those spren with the new consciousness that is now part of Retribution.

And that is foreshadowing of the Iriali being right, and all things recombining to create their One.

[Arkangel]

I don't have any ideas about a fourth Shard but, whatever it is, I believe Endowment is working behind the scenes. Is it just coincidence that Vasher, Vivenna, and Nightblood are all on Roshar at this point in time? While Vivenna's part in the story hasn't been too vital, Vasher has had a massive influence on Kaladin and, IMO more importantly, Adolin - especially considering the training which helped him fight Abidi. Nightblood, of course, has been instrumental in multiple massive plot moments since his inclusion in Stormlight. I don't believe that Endowment would have an avatar Invested on Roshar (it's not impossible, though) but she may be allied with whichever Shard is.

[MagicMaggot]

19 minutes ago, Arkangel said:

I believe Endowment is working behind the scenes. Is it just coincidence that Vasher, Vivenna, and Nightblood are all on Roshar at this point in time?

I feel that would really undermine the WaT finale. If other Shards were already working to help, creating Retribution to bait them certainly sounds like a misfire. So I don't believe she herself is involved.

And well, Vasher took Nightblood, and Vivenna came hunting for it, so there isn't really much of a mystery why all three were there.

There certainly are some mysteries about Vasher, also known as Gavilar's scholar, who brought anti-voidlight to Roshar, and who for some reason took Nightblood to that world, just to abandon it. But I don't think that implies shardic intent. Endowment's gifts are usually no-strings-attached, aren't they? 

[Arkangel]

3 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

I feel that would really undermine the WaT finale. If other Shards were already working to help, creating Retribution to bait them certainly sounds like a misfire. So I don't believe she herself is involved.

And well, Vasher took Nightblood, and Vivenna came hunting for it, so there isn't really much of a mystery why all three were there.

There certainly are some mysteries about Vasher, also known as Gavilar's scholar, who brought anti-voidlight to Roshar, and who for some reason took Nightblood to that world, just to abandon it. But I don't think that implies shardic intent. Endowment's gifts are usually no-strings-attached, aren't they? 

Fair point. It may just be chalked up to Fortune as to their being in all of the right places at the right times. That said, if Endowment wasn't directly involved in their being on Roshar, she'll definitely be paying attention to them now.

[TheoreticalMagic]

My belief that its Reason and not Valor that's already on Roshar is because I think narratively, there's a lot more to work with - given Hoid's intent to go seek out Valor and recruit her to help in the fight against Retribution - if he has to actually track her down and take her with him to Roshar instead of his search for her leading him right back to where he always intended to end up anyway.

On a related note, I think it also makes a lot of narrative sense for Reason to have been drawn to Roshar for the same reasons that Honor spoke of it appealing to him....the mathematical shape of it appealing to him on a fundamental, creative level.....like if there's one Shard above all others I could imagine FIRST seeking out Roshar or seeing it appealing to them when first surveying the cosmere after newly Ascending and seeking a place to settle....its Reason. So I could see Reason having settled on Roshar (or at least near it, like on the fourth moon) long before Honor showed up, let alone Cultivation and Odium....and a big part of why it never revealed itself was it was TRYING to abide by the original agreement between the Shards. To self-isolate. It was there first, but if it Reasoned that revealing itself even if to stake a claim and try and get Honor to leave could still be counted by its Power as a violation of the Shards' agreement and weakening it...much like Kor acknowledged in one of Honor's flashback chapters that every instance of gods violating their agreements weakened them to a degree or opened them up to attack....it could have decided its best bet was to just hunker down and wait out all the other Shards that arrived in system.

I have MUCH more trouble imagining Valor adhering to the isolation policy if present on Roshar all along, bearing witness to everything Odium and the others did....because I think that Shard's power would have been one of the most accommodating in the face of its Vessel trying to break the isolation policy and intercede in a Shard conflict....because it would be in accordance with Valor's Intent to help Honor protect mortals IMO, or take a side in a war that threatened all. And since we know that Valor at some point did reach out to Endowment, even if without interacting with her directly....idk, maybe its just a hunch, but I find it far easier to reconcile Reason's presence thus far than Valor's. Especially since we know wherever Valor is, Endowment DID do something to help her, even though she didn't go there directly....and I do think if Valor had been on Roshar at that time, or in that system, Endowment's view of things on Roshar and the conflict with Rayse would have been a lot less....distant than how she regarded it when discussing it with Hoid in their communications.

She treated it as a total abstract to her, and if she'd been involved (even distantly) in doing SOMETHING involving the Rosharan system in order to help Valor, I think there would be a different tone to how she talked to Hoid about Roshar. Because if she had been involved in things there, to any degree whatsoever, she'd either be a) hypocritical when accusing Hoid of having any involvement, and she strikes me as someone who views hypocrisy as a very big deal, or b) she'd be a bit more smug and possibly alluding to the idea that "you know, you don't HAVE to meddle or be present directly in order to play a role in things on Roshar or mess with Odium's plans. Not that I'd know anything about it. I'm just speaking hypothetically of course."

If that makes sense?

So yeah, I'm a big proponent of a fourth Shard being in system already and getting ready to be more directly involved, but that's my (latest) case for why its Reason rather than Valor. Too many things add up in favor of Reason for me, whereas the only real nods towards it being Valor is her thematic relevance to a conflict of this magnitude (which could apply equally to just the idea that she'll BECOME a player in the conflict, just as easily by being a late arrival as by having been present all along) and the fact that nobody knows where she is presently (which again, also applies equally to Reason anyway).

[rabidhexley]

Quote

Personally, I think the Deadeyes had less to do with Mishram than with Honor's betrayal of Mishram. Thus righting that betrayal began to bring about their recovery.

 

This is similar my personal thought. The shattering of that oath had widespread cataclysmic effects on the underlying investiture of Roshar, and literally caused the shard to spit out its vessel. 

 

My working personal hypothesis on the underlying theory is that Honor basically served as the anchor Connection for spren on Roshar. When spren bond with a Radiant they're primary Connection becomes with the Radiant through the bond. Unbonded spren still have an inherent Connection to Honor, so they're safe, but either because of the betrayal or lack of a vessel, there is nothing actively maintaining that Connection.

 

The breaking of oaths seems like it's traumatic in any case, but when Honor was still in place the spren could naturally recover from the process. With the betrayal of Mishram and death of Tanavast, the underlying connection to oaths and Honor became damaged, preventing the spren from being able to recover from the process on their own.

 

This is also the clue as to how Maya was able to begin healing by forming a Connection to Adolin. The problem with deadeyes is that they lack Connection due to the death of Honor, they are Connection-less balls of Investiture, deathless but unable to heal. By reforging Connection they are able to begin healing. Now that the betrayal of Mishram has been righted (and because in a way Honor is "whole" again), the deadeyes are now able to recover from broken oaths again.

 

I feel like there is a some sort of parallel between what happened to the deadeyes and what happened to the Elantrians during the incomplete Shaod. Elantrians seem to be born by people forming a Connection to the land, but were similarly messed up by that Connection becoming harmed. They didn't lose their minds (immediately), but Elantrians aren't entirely composed of Investiture and have physical brains. But the whole "turn into a zombie version of yourself" seems somewhat similar.

Edited January 8, 2025 by rabidhexley

[TheoreticalMagic]

4 hours ago, rabidhexley said:

I feel like there is a some sort of parallel between what happened to the deadeyes and what happened to the Elantrians during the incomplete Shaod. Elantrians seem to be born by people forming a Connection to the land, but were similarly messed up by that Connection becoming harmed. They didn't lose their minds (immediately), but Elantrians aren't entirely composed of Investiture and have physical brains. But the whole "turn into a zombie version of yourself" seems somewhat similar.

This is my thought as well. I don't think the Unoathed had anything to do with the supposed fourth Shard, whether its Valor or Reason, but instead had to do with the concept of Redemption, which could be seen as falling under the purview of Honor, as a form of reclaiming Honor. It was talked up as a big theme in the final chapters, as the reforging of the Oathpact, the release of Bo-Ado-Mishram and Dalinar's validation of Tanavast's original choice to betray the power of Honor to do what he believed was right.....were all forms of redemption, and all carried the SPIRIT of Honor.

And Adolin's realization of promises being a kind of Honor that's distinct from oaths (in his eyes)....and the fact that when trying to explain his position to the deadeyes, they were cited as seeming relieved that "he got it," and they didn't have to try to explain how they felt to him, given that they were still having difficulty with speech and communicating their thoughts.....all of that suggests that Adolin basically just got on the same page with them, and they were aligned in Intent when they went into that fight....which mirrors how the power of Honor wanted to be UNDERSTOOD and that was the key to Dalinar Connecting to it in the first place. Understanding WHY something matters so much to someone else and WHY its important to keep or break a promise to them (and think too how all of this coincided with Adolin letting go of his resentment of his father and sort of freeing both his parents from his childish expectations of them being perfect, looking for the Honor in how they behave rather than obsessing about the idealized Honor he associated with how he thinks they SHOULD have behaved) - understanding yourself, your enemies and your allies, as well as those you wish to protect seems to be at the heart of forging Connections with Honor....or at least, the new/young awareness of Honor.

And so in my opinion the orange-red fiery glow was a new AVENUE towards Connecting with Honor, an Honor reclaimed. The whole idea of the Unoathed - coinciding with Adolin's (and the deadeyes') choice to uphold promises as more vital to behaving Honorably than strictly adhering to Oaths at all costs - IMO suggests that all of that was about them discovering a new way to tap into the power of Honor without needing Oaths....because Oaths are not the only way to carry Honor.

Edited January 9, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic