How can Taravangian alter memories?

[Ookla the Invariably Tired]

So I just had a thought about this.

In the debate with Jasnah, Taravangian does not say what number she was thinking of, and it is implied that this is due to a lack of ability. However, Taravangian later changes the memories of the population of Kharbranth.

This leads to three possibilities. First, he was lying to Jasnah, and knew what number she was thinking. I don’t think this is very likely.

Secondly, he shouldn’t have been able to change their memories. I don’t like to think this is a continuity error, and Brandon makes almost zero of those, and I can’t think of any that I have seen.

Finally, a more in-universe idea. Are memories somehow different from regular thoughts? At what point does a thought become a memory?

Memories seem to work in a very interesting way. Two interesting instances come to mind: both with Hoid. First, when he meets with Todium at the end of RoW. Todium removes the 3 minutes or whatever from his memory, but he does it by destroying Hoid’s breaths. This was always strange to me; why was Hoid keeping such recent memories, literally things that happened seconds before, in his breaths? I would have imagined he kept older memories in the those breaths. We know that he definitely lost breaths, but why were his memories and even current thoughts in them?

The other moment was when Hod was disintegrated, and his body regrew from some cells. A few thoughts on that. Wat said that Odium vaporized Hoid, turning him into a fine red mist. So, if those cells hadn’t been there, wouldn’t Hoid have regrown from those bits of red mist, whichever one happened to be largest? Sorry that was a small tangent, but with his memories, he had all of his memories when he woke, despite his clump of cells likely having been separate from him for decades or centuries. This gives me the impression that memories are tied to Identity in an interesting way that we haven’t yet seen explored.

This doesn’t resolve the question, and I still wonder how Odium changed all those people’s memories. Any thoughts would be welcome!

 

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, Thalydon said:

So I just had a thought about this.

In the debate with Jasnah, Taravangian does not say what number she was thinking of, and it is implied that this is due to a lack of ability. However, Taravangian later changes the memories of the population of Kharbranth.

He answered this in-text. Just as he changed/stole Wit's memories at the end of RoW - he requires a Connection to directly affect Mortals on Roshar still protected by his Oaths with Honor and Cultivation. WaT Interlude 12:

Spoiler

Cultivation gasped, horror vibrating from her. “Taravangian. No. You can’t.”

“I will weep,” he whispered. “Know that I will weep.”

His avatar closed its eyes, tears leaking down its cheeks. He thought of his family—not only his daughter, dear Savrahalidem, but his grandchildren. Gvori, Karavangia, and little Ruli—whom he’d been forced to use in schemes before. And of course there were his dear friends of the Diagram. Faithful Maben, who sat with her own granddaughter in the morning light, knitting, completely unaware of the incursion force. Mrall, already dead, having tried to protect Taravangian’s family. Adrotagia … she was walking the palace gardens, and assassins crept up behind her.

“I will remember you,” he whispered as the wave surged toward the city, now a hundred feet tall. It was an action he could not have taken anywhere else, for it was too direct an intervention. But Kharbranth … he, as a mortal, had been promised Kharbranth. That still held.

He has a valid Connection to Kharbranth and its inhabitants that allow him to intervene directly there.

Hope that helps.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Ookla the Invariably Tired]

That does, thanks

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Thalydon said:

Finally, a more in-universe idea. Are memories somehow different from regular thoughts? At what point does a thought become a memory?

They are. Memories are a part of your Spirit Web (which I think was even said in WaT), that's why you can alter them if you modify your Spirit Web. Thoughts are just your mind and your Cognitive Aspect working. 

10 hours ago, Thalydon said:

Two interesting instances come to mind: both with Hoid. First, when he meets with Todium at the end of RoW. Todium removes the 3 minutes or whatever from his memory, but he does it by destroying Hoid’s breaths. This was always strange to me; why was Hoid keeping such recent memories, literally things that happened seconds before, in his breaths? I would have imagined he kept older memories in the those breaths. We know that he definitely lost breaths, but why were his memories and even current thoughts in them?

He explained it in the book - he stores fresh memories in Breaths to review them at the end of the day and decide which ones to keep and which ones he can forget. He also stores old memories in his Breaths. It makes sense for Hoid to store his memories immediately in Breaths because he doesn't risk forgetting any detail. WaT ch 14:

Quote

“I’m sorry, I’m sorry,” he said, slumping into the seat beside her stone counter—a natural feature of the room that jutted from the wall. “I have lived a very long time, Jasnah. Longer than a mortal mind can track, so I store memories in something called Breath, an easily accessible—if costly—form of Investiture a person can adopt and, with training, use to expand their soul. I periodically review my memories, deciding what can be jettisoned. In my review just now, I found something unexpected, something terrifying.”

 

Spoiler

Questioner

You talked about how Hoid would never want to go near Nightblood. If he were to be in proximity to Nightblood, would he be, like, Force-pushed away? Like, he wouldn't be able to get close to him?

Brandon Sanderson

No. He would not want to touch him. The thing about Nightblood is... Hoid's one of the few who knows exactly how dangerous this thing is. And beyond that, Hoid depends so much on the memories that he has in his Breaths, and that would be one of the first things that would get sucked out by Nightblood. So if he were to touch Nightblood, he might lose centuries. And this is a big deal to Hoid. So, yes, he could theoretically pick up Nightblood. It would just be a lot more disastrous more quickly for him than it probably would be for others.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

10 hours ago, Thalydon said:

The other moment was when Hod was disintegrated, and his body regrew from some cells. A few thoughts on that. Wat said that Odium vaporized Hoid, turning him into a fine red mist. So, if those cells hadn’t been there, wouldn’t Hoid have regrown from those bits of red mist, whichever one happened to be largest? Sorry that was a small tangent, but with his memories, he had all of his memories when he woke, despite his clump of cells likely having been separate from him for decades or centuries. This gives me the impression that memories are tied to Identity in an interesting way that we haven’t yet seen explored.

If Hoid had no cells, he would have ended up dead. Taravangian completely vaporized his body. It was gone and dead. Without any living body part to attached to, his soul would be gone as well (although he probably could have become a Cognitive Shadow if he wanted). That's why Ulaam kept a few of Hoid's cells alive so his soul could attach to them and start healing. Once again, memories are a part of the Spirit Web so he would have remember everything that had happened. Breaths are Innate Investiture, they stick to the soul so they should also go with the soul and stick to his new body, allowing him to remember everything and not lose any of his precious memories. 

[Nitpicking]

On 12/26/2024 at 8:00 PM, Thalydon said:

Secondly, he shouldn’t have been able to change their memories. I don’t like to think this is a continuity error, and Brandon makes almost zero of those, and I can’t think of any that I have seen.

Brandon has made several major continuity errors, but he edits them out of your memory.