Disappointed in wat a take back of oathbringer

[cvamoca]

On 1/4/2025 at 8:37 PM, MagicMaggot said:

...if any of that is the alternative, I'll take the Mary Sue any time. I like Adolin as he is now. I think a lot of readers do. And I think all of these suggestions would be hard to pull off without making me dislike the character. Creating drama and new character weaknesses during the plot, as you are suggesting here, is quite different from giving us characters that come with these weaknesses and learn to overcome them. I certainly wouldn't enjoy Shallan's and his relationship more, if there only was more drama and conflict in it, eating up the pages. I'm not saying that there isn't potential for good stories in following the fall as well as the rise of a character, but I can tell you that that's not what I read Sanderson for. 

Could there have been some more stumbling blocks in Adolin's road, without making it needlessly dramatic? I guess so. But I didnt miss any. And well, with the end of the world and all that going on, I kinda don't mind having a character around where I know that things are gonna be fine. Though I can't even really say that for Adolin, since he wasn't really far down on many "character most likely to die this book"-lists.

Adolin became one of my favourite characters- because, he is kind. I think about how he became Kaladin's friend, by being kind and treating him honourably.  He loved his Ryshadium Sureblood, he talked to his blade, outside of being a womanizer and justifyingly slaying Sadeas, he has always had a good moral compass. Better than his father's. When he did wrong he admitted to himself at least that he'd done wrong. (I think Sadeas killing, while brutal was absolutely justified given how many times he tried to kill a Kholin family member)

One of my favourite things about him was his fashion sense. It tickled me constantly. I think why he became a favourite is Brandon gave him WAY more personality than say Jasnah or Renarin.  I didn't know anything about Jasnah's personal life until she had a relationship with Hoid. I knew much more about Adolin...I'm glad he survived this first 5 novels.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

On 1/11/2025 at 11:47 AM, cvamoca said:

Adolin became one of my favourite characters- because, he is kind. I think about how he became Kaladin's friend, by being kind and treating him honourably.  He loved his Ryshadium Sureblood, he talked to his blade, outside of being a womanizer and justifyingly slaying Sadeas, he has always had a good moral compass. Better than his father's. When he did wrong he admitted to himself at least that he'd done wrong. (I think Sadeas killing, while brutal was absolutely justified given how many times he tried to kill a Kholin family member)

One of my favourite things about him was his fashion sense. It tickled me constantly. I think why he became a favourite is Brandon gave him WAY more personality than say Jasnah or Renarin.  I didn't know anything about Jasnah's personal life until she had a relationship with Hoid. I knew much more about Adolin...I'm glad he survived this first 5 novels.

Agree with all of that except calling him a womanizer he had many women who he courted, but none he's never been depicted as someone who was using women for sex or taking advantage of women for sex and then dropping them... he just couldn't relate to any of the women in the Alethi court and their Alethi ways

[boonboon]

It wasn't Adolin acting like a complete retard around women

Quote

Adolin picked his up and studied it. He smelled it, sipped it, then nodded in satisfaction and dismissed the servant with a parting smile. He watched the woman’s backside as she retreated.

Shallan raised an eyebrow at him, but he didn’t seem to notice that he’d done anything wrong.

It was just whole ten warcamps of non-relatable Alethi women and their Alethi ways 

Different books indeed

[Treamayne]

On 1/11/2025 at 2:47 PM, cvamoca said:

outside of being a womanizer and justifyingly slaying Sadeas, he has always had a good moral compass.

1 hour ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Agree with all of that except calling him a womanizer he had many women who he courted, but none he's never been depicted as someone who was using women for sex or taking advantage of women for sex and then dropping them... he just couldn't relate to any of the women in the Alethi court and their Alethi ways

40 minutes ago, boonboon said:

It wasn't Adolin acting like a complete retard around women

It was just whole ten warcamps of non-relatable Alethi women and their Alethi ways

Different books indeed

Maybe consider defining your terms to ensure all sides understand the context of the comment?

To me, "Womanizer" has a distinct connotation of casual relations, often with a negative end. Wiktionary defines it as:

Quote

1. A [man] who habitually flirts with and seduces, or attempts to seduce, women.

By my understanding, Adolin would more accurately be called a "lech" (though, that is also a slang term) since, from what we know of his relationships, it was more of a "wandering eye" or lack of attentiveness rather than a desire for a carnal relationship devoid of friendship or romance (which is indicative of "womanizer" - e.g. (very old refernece) Richard Kline's performance as Larry on Three's Company would be a "typical womanizer").

I'm not sure thay any participant in the discussion was implying that Adolin was just persuing a physical relationship with the women he "courted" - everybody was just using different terms to describe the same behaviour, then disagreeing on those terms themselves rather than the behaviour being described.

Just one opinion.

[boonboon]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Maybe consider defining your terms to ensure all sides understand the context of the comment?

To me, "Womanizer" has a distinct connotation of casual relations, often with a negative end. 

By my understanding, Adolin would more accurately be called a "lech" (though, that is also a slang term)

I agree that he wasn't a womanizer by definiton, I just didn't like the reasoning. I think it's dishonest to say "he couldn't relate to the Alethi women and their Alethi ways", because he's definitely treated them poorly. Especially considering that he treated Shallan the same way and the only thing that kept them together was her clinginess due to her childhood trauma.

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, boonboon said:

I think it's dishonest to say "he couldn't relate to the Alethi women and their Alethi ways",

Concur, I also disagree with this statement.

9 hours ago, boonboon said:

Especially considering that he treated Shallan the same way and the only thing that kept them together was her clinginess due to her childhood trauma.

Sorry, but I disagree here. He looked once at another female on their very first date. By the time they go to visit the menagerie together, I can recall of no other instances where he is looking at other women while spending time with her - and it is more likely in their exchanges that Shallan is the one bringing up his prior relationships, not him.

Unfortunately, I thought it was the author's attempt at humor - that very much did not feel like humor (definitely not as funny, to me, as Pattern's interactions with them-as-a-couple).

Interstingly, it seems his primary fault in WoK and early WoR was an inability to understand his partner's needs or account for how his actions affected them - yet that is what drew them together in Oathbringer. He started understanding Shallan's needs and how he could be there for her when she needed him; which led to her monologue in the aftermath of the battle of Thaylen Field (OB Ch 121)
 

Spoiler

“Oh? And is that what women are supposed to seek in a mate? Is it in the Polite Lady’s Handbook to Courtship and Family? The Bekenah edition, maybe? ‘Ladies, you can’t possibly marry a man if he can’t fly.’ Never mind if the other option is as handsome as sin, kind to everyone he meets regardless of their station, passionate about his art, and genuinely humble in the weirdest, most confident way. Never mind if he actually seems to get you, and remarkably listens to your problems, encouraging you to be you—not to hide yourself away. Never mind if being near him makes you want to rip his shirt off and push him into the nearest alleyway, then kiss him until he can’t breathe anymore. If he can’t fly, then well, you just have to call it off!”

She paused for breath, gasping.

“And…” Adolin said. “That guy is … me?”

“You are such a fool.” 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[boonboon]

26 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

“Oh? And is that what women are supposed to seek in a mate? Is it in the Polite Lady’s Handbook to Courtship and Family? The Bekenah edition, maybe? ‘Ladies, you can’t possibly marry a man if he can’t fly.’ Never mind if the other option is as handsome as sin, kind to everyone he meets regardless of their station, passionate about his art, and genuinely humble in the weirdest, most confident way. Never mind if he actually seems to get you, and remarkably listens to your problems, encouraging you to be you—not to hide yourself away. Never mind if being near him makes you want to rip his shirt off and push him into the nearest alleyway, then kiss him until he can’t breathe anymore. If he can’t fly, then well, you just have to call it off!”

She paused for breath, gasping.

“And…” Adolin said. “That guy is … me?”

“You are such a fool.” 

I have some thoughts on this monologue, but I'm not sure I can properly convey them. Let me just say I partially agree with the first part of this post and bring up a quote from there.

 

Quote

The problem is that the reasons sound hollow. Can she not come up with something more specific? I mean, Adolin has some really good qualities that are his own but none of the ones she mentions couldn't be applied to Kaladin as well.

Though I think we are going to have to agree to disagree anyway. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

2 hours ago, boonboon said:

I agree that he wasn't a womanizer by definiton, I just didn't like the reasoning. I think it's dishonest to say "he couldn't relate to the Alethi women and their Alethi ways", because he's definitely treated them poorly. 

I'm not sure I see the issue here and I don't see any dishonesty in my statement.

The passage you quote is him admiring a random woman who he had no real interactions with, while I was talking about the many women he courted in the Court. Regardless, neither of them rise to the concept of womanizing. 

He treated the women of the Court poorly not intentionally, based on all the instances we see, but because he does not relate to or seemingly have anything in common with them or the way they acted/related to him. That seemed to have lead him to inaction or forgetfulness or a lack of importance to the relationships on his part, more than malice in his interactions.

We the readers, never get the sense that he ever did anything morally wrong or scandalous, but that the women felt slighted because he didn't engage or follow through enough with them.

Did he treat them "poorly"? I guess according to the social expectations of the Alethi Court and how the women expected him to court them. But to me it wasn't a moral failing on his part and doesn't define how he is going to interact with women in the future or have any meaning for how he might act with women while he and Shallan are in different realms, which is how people seem to be arguing it. 

[MagicMaggot]

3 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

We the readers, never get the sense that he ever did anything morally wrong or scandalous, but that the women felt slighted because he didn't engage or follow through enough with them.

Did he treat them "poorly"? I guess according to the social expectations of the Alethi Court and how the women expected him to court them. But to me it wasn't a moral failing on his part and doesn't define how he is going to interact with women in the future or have any meaning for how he might act with women while he and Shallan are in different realms, which is how people seem to be arguing it. 

I agree that that is most likely the author's intention here. But I also think there is a glaring plausibility issue with so many of the ambitious ladies of a feudal court caring too much that the good-looking, fashionable, sports-champion, Shardbearer, heir to a Highprincedom, and cousin to the King, gave them some minor slights and awkward moments during courtship. And when there is such an implausibility in the world-building, people tend to fill in the blanks themselves, which in this case would likely include some more serious kinds of misbehaviour in Adolin than mere inattentiveness. Since it's not on the page it goes nowhere, but I would put some of that on Sanderson. 

Edited January 13, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, boonboon said:

Though I think we are going to have to agree to disagree anyway

I can certainly agree to disagree. In fact, I'll agree to disagree some more:

5 hours ago, boonboon said:

first part of this post

That list (with my observances):

Quote

• Handsome as sin
  • Both, but only for those that can look past his brands for Kaladin (which in status-concious Alethkar is not likely to be many, but we don't see those viewpoints)
• kind to everyone
  • Adolin, not Kaladin. In fact, I would argue that Kaladin is actively unkind to everyone until/unless he "adopts" them into his "circle"
• passionate about his art
  • Adolin, not Kaladin. Kaladin is passionate about his work, not his art. Kaladin doesn't even have "art" but, for example, let's look at Practicing.
  • He refuses to practice or teach the Spear in WoK (except in the most abbreviated/circumlocutious ways - leaving things to Teft once a weapon is in-hand). In WoR he even admits to straining plausibility in finding excuses to dodge Sigzil and his promise to practice lashings It takes 1/3 of the book for him to start and 2/3 of the book to even care about procticing Lashings. That i shardly "passion for his art"
• humble in a confident way
  • Ish. I would not describe Kaladin this way, but I admit I can see an arguement for doing so. Maybe closer to 'Confident in a slightly humble way'?
• he gets her
  • Adolin, not Kaladin. Not even a little. They shared one discussion of confidences during the Highstorm in WoR and he still does not get Shallan - he just happens to know some of her secrets but he can't see her though his Tien hangups.
  • He does understand her Humor better than Adolin though - but reducing Shallan to only her humor to justify this bullet point is disingenuous to both of them.
• listens to her
  • Neither of them before the OB trip through Shadesmar. After, Adolin not Kaladin. Kaladin is far too obsessed with trying to make sure everybody listens to him for him to truly listen to others. Especially pre-RoW.
• encourages you to be you and not hide yourself away
  • Adolin, Not Kaladin. Kaladin even says to both himself and her "How can you hide your pain and smile. I want to do that." He's not interested in Shallan's progress, or Shallan being herself instead of her masks - he just wants to have a mask too (see below*)
• being near him makes her want to rip his shirt off
  • Both

The things is, Kaladin was never really attracted to Shallan. Syl may have wanted him to be, but he only knew that she made him feel like Tien without ever realizing that it is part of the Lightweaver Resonance to have that effect on others (such as Shallan's first interactions with Vathah's band).

 

*Shallan's Masks:

Spoiler

WoR Ch 71

Quote

She had been broken.

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

“How?” he asked.

She shrugged lightly. “Helps if you’re crazy.

OB Ch 99:

Quote

Something felt warm within him at being near her. Something felt right. It wasn’t like with Laral, his boyhood crush. Or even like with Tarah, his first real romance. It was something different, and he couldn’t define it. He only knew he didn’t want it to stop. It pushed back the darkness.

“Down in the chasms,” he said, “when we were trapped together, you talked about your life. About … your father.”

“I remember,” she said softly. “In the darkness of the storm.”

“How do you do it, Shallan? How do you keep smiling and laughing? How do you keep from fixating on the terrible things that have happened?”

“I cover them up. I have this uncanny ability to hide away anything I don’t want to think about. It … it’s getting harder, but for most things I can just…” She trailed off, staring straight ahead. “There. Gone.”

“Wow.”

“I know,” she whispered. “I’m crazy.”

“No. No, Shallan! I wish I could do the same.”

She looked at him, brow wrinkling. “You’re crazy.”

“How nice would it be, if I could simply shove it all away? Storms.” He tried to imagine it. Not spending his life worrying about the mistakes he’d made. Not hearing the constant whispers that he wasn’t good enough, or that he’d failed his men.

“This way, I’ll never face it,” Shallan said.

“It’s better than being unable to function.”

“That’s what I tell myself.” She shook her head.

WoB:

Quote

Questioner

In Stormlight, with Kaladin and his brother Tien, is there a connection or a reason why, whenever his brother finds a rock, that keeps coming up several times?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So, there's a couple themes going on here. One is just the subtle theme that Tien tends to find beauty in things that Kaladin finds dull. That's, of course, kind of the metaphor. But Tien also was a budding Lightweaver, and he saw color and light a little bit differently than other people did. And he has the same general effect that you'll see Shallan having on people, which is how the Lightweaver views you influences a little bit more how your mood is, and things like that... And there is a magical element to that, as well. There's both a metaphoric reason and an in-world reason.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

 

 

Edited January 13, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[boonboon]

Ahh, why are you dragging me into this? 

I warn you, formatting will make your head hurt.

Quote

• kind to everyone
  • Adolin, not Kaladin. In fact, I would argue that Kaladin is actively unkind to everyone until/unless he "adopts" them into his "circle"

Depends on the definition of 'kindness', I think.

I don't remember any examples of his 'unkindness', at least after WoR. I remember though that he was the only person hesitant about killing singers before the 'Human are Voidbringers' reveal.

“I’ve seen war, Brightness. I’m a soldier. Problem is, Ideals have expanded my focus. I can’t help but see the common men among the enemy. They’re not monsters.”

Quote

• passionate about his art
  • Adolin, not Kaladin. Kaladin is passionate about his work, not his art. Kaladin doesn't even have "art" but, for example, let's look at Practicing.

If we focus on 'his art', then yes, but I think the 'passionate' part is the most important. And there are multiple instances of Shallan mentioning passion regarding Kaladin. Bolding mine.

1. "He stared into her eyes. So intense. She felt a shiver meeting that expression. This was a man of passion."

2. "It was … kind of a full sketch of Kaladin’s face, with passionate eyes.."

3. "Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were—or what you did—you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

He was. Like the wind and rocks were."

Quote

• he gets her
  • Adolin, not Kaladin. Not even a little. They shared one discussion of confidences during the Highstorm in WoR and he still does not get Shallan - he just happens to know some of her secrets but he can't see her though his Tien hangups.

Kaladin:

1. "The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she’d been doing. He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her."

2. "Smile. I need you to smile.

I need what happened to be all right. Something that can simply roll off me.

Please.

“Well…” Kaladin said. “I’m glad we … took a stab at this anyway.” He smiled.

It was all right. Just another day, another infiltration."

3. "It was sometimes difficult to treat Shallan’s personas as three distinct people, but it was what she seemed to prefer."

4. Not only humor, Kaladin also shares or, at least, understands her scientific interest. The 'crem strata' scene in WoR, the 'luckspren' scene on the honorship in OB.

5. Wdym can't see her through his Tien hangups? Kaladin knows exactly how broken she is, he gets it completely. Yes, he wasn't aware that her coping method causes even more problems, but Adolin wasn't too, not until Shallan explicitly told him. 

Adolin:

I'll quote a post from the same thread. It's also suitable for the 'listens her' part.

"Though he might listen to the words she says, he also has exhibited many times he's tone deaf to noticing how she's feeling (e.g. when she was distressed about learning the sword and disassociates into Radiant; when she's distressed over learning Kaladin killed Heleran), and I would even argue that their most intimate conversation - where Shallan admits to her fractured personas and Adolin tells her he killed Sadeas - shows tone deafness as well, despite the fact that he seems to come to the correct conclusion (they are both lying to the world.)  He turned a topic which was very personal and distressing to Shallan into a conversation about himself.  Is that really listening?"

Quote

• encourages you to be you and not hide yourself away
  • Adolin, Not Kaladin. Kaladin even says to both himself and her "How can you hide your pain and smile. I want to do that." He's not interested in Shallan's progress, or Shallan being herself instead of her masks - he just wants to have a mask too (see below*)

This one is very debatable with plenty of wiggle room and different interpretations, I'll just mention a few things, you prob know them anyway.

There are some arguments about Adolin treating Veil as a different person (e.g. becoming drinking buddies with her, or saying “You’re not my wife.” to her in RoW) and involuntarily putting a pressure on Shallan to fulfill her "Alethi Brightness" role, therefore inhibiting her reintegration.

And Kaladin does not explicitly encourage her, but we have two parallels hinting that Kaladin is helpful (beneficial? I don't know) for Shallan's mental health.

1. "The Girl Who Stood Up"/The honorship scene parallel in OB, where standing Shallan = strong Shallan, sitting Shallan = weak Shallan. And it is Shallan, because she "needed to draw that." Adolin's POV:

"Just ahead of him, Shallan seemed to change. It was in her bearing, the way she stopped resting lightly on one foot, and stood solidly on two feet instead. The way her posture shifted."

2. The bar scene / Kaladin's 4th ideal scene with Syl in RoW.

• “I’m not sure if I can help,” Kaladin said. “I can barely keep a handle on my own problems these days.” 

  “You being here helps,” Radiant said.

• She held to him, and shook as she spoke. “I’ve forgotten the Words. I’m supposed to help you, but I can’t. I…"

  “You are helping,” Kaladin said, “by being here.”

Quote

• being near him makes her want to rip his shirt off
  • Both

It's a personal preference, but I'm not very fond of Shallan's sudden off-putting obsession with sex. I'd like to think it's only a part of her "Brightness Shallan" persona she plays for Adolin. Kaladin deserves something a bit more tasteful (Syl's chullhead vagina, for example )

Edited January 13, 2025 by boonboon

[RedBlue]

7 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

He treated the women of the Court poorly not intentionally, based on all the instances we see, but because he does not relate to or seemingly have anything in common with them or the way they acted/related to him. That seemed to have lead him to inaction or forgetfulness or a lack of importance to the relationships on his part, more than malice in his interactions.

We the readers, never get the sense that he ever did anything morally wrong or scandalous, but that the women felt slighted because he didn't engage or follow through enough with them.

Did he treat them "poorly"? I guess according to the social expectations of the Alethi Court and how the women expected him to court them. But to me it wasn't a moral failing on his part and doesn't define how he is going to interact with women in the future or have any meaning for how he might act with women while he and Shallan are in different realms, which is how people seem to be arguing it. 

Broadly, I agree with you.

Adolin does make some pretty bad faux pas in WoK. He takes one of the women he’s courting with him on his investigation of the broken saddle strap, and that’s the ‘date.’ She was unimpressed — fair enough. Adolin repeatedly put his dates right at the bottom of his priority list, and when the latest young lady had enough of that, he moved on to the next one as though his dates were interchangeable.

This is pretty shoddy behaviour by anyone’s standards, not just the Alethi Court. If he’s not serious about dating, he could just not do it. He doesn’t have to waste these women’s time.

To Adolin’s credit, he sorted himself out. Once Shallan caught his attention, he put in some effort, spent quality time with her, and stopped his more questionable habits.

Overall, I think Adolin in WoK was a young man who needed to learn some social graces. Which he proceeded to do. It’s hard to see that as a precursor to cheating.

 

5 minutes ago, boonboon said:

It's a personal preference, but I'm not very fond of Shallan's sudden off-putting obsession with sex. I'd like to think it's only a part of her "Brightness Shallan" persona she plays for Adolin.

Incidentally, I think it’s neat that a female character gets to be depicted as liking sex without it being portrayed as shameful or weird. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

6 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

I agree that that is most likely the author's intention here. But I also think there is a glaring plausibility issue with so many of the ambitious ladies of a feudal court caring too much that the good-looking, fashionable, sports-champion, Shardbearer, heir to a Highprincedom, and cousin to the King, gave them some minor slights and awkward moments during courtship. And when there is such an implausibility in the world-building, people tend to fill in the blanks themselves, which in this case would likely include some more serious kinds of misbehaviour in Adolin than mere inattentiveness. Since it's not on the page it goes nowhere, but I would put some of that on Sanderson. 

This is a great point in that the ladies of the Court shouldn't have been put off by his inattentiveness/faux pas. 

That said, I can also see it more as a commentary about the women own levels of self-centeredness that they allowed those to put them off of such an eligible bachelor given a couple of facts. First being that he was only "courting" women of eligible rank within the Dahn system for the heir to a Princedom who are therefore highly ranked women in their own rights. Second being that despite all his failures, Shallan was immediately ostracized by the women of the Shattered Plains of Rank because she was in a Causal with Adolin/competition, so they must have still felt him "landable" by one of them even if it was on a round 2 or something. If they were really "done with him" they wouldn't have cared about Shallan's arrival nearly as much. 

Except Danlan, she was a Diagram plant the whole time. 

2 hours ago, RedBlue said:

This is pretty shoddy behaviour by anyone’s standards, not just the Alethi Court. If he’s not serious about dating, he could just not do it. He doesn’t have to waste these women’s time.

I agree with you on what you're saying, though I think here he's doing what is expected of him. He's the young bachelor heir to a Princedom, he's expected to Court women, so he does. He just isn't very good at it because he doesn't care that much about it like he does other things in his life. 

2 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Overall, I think Adolin in WoK was a young man who needed to learn some social graces. Which he proceeded to do. It’s hard to see that as a precursor to cheating.

Much more succinctly put than I managed  

I think my biggest issue is people now assuming Adolin will cheat because he and Shallan are separated because of what I consider to be a complete misreading of his WoK/early WoR interactions with women other than Shallan. 

He MIGHT do something he'll regret in the months/years he and Shallan are apart, we'll have to see where the narrative takes us in the back half. But I don't think it will be because he's been secretly jonesing to do that in his soul because of a monologue about Ideals/Oaths vs promises in WaT and his earlier womanizing. 

[MagicMaggot]

4 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

That said, I can also see it more as a commentary about the women own levels of self-centeredness that they allowed those to put them off of such an eligible bachelor given a couple of facts. First being that he was only "courting" women of eligible rank within the Dahn system for the heir to a Princedom who are therefore highly ranked women in their own rights. Second being that despite all his failures, Shallan was immediately ostracized by the women of the Shattered Plains of Rank because she was in a Causal with Adolin/competition, so they must have still felt him "landable" by one of them even if it was on a round 2 or something. If they were really "done with him" they wouldn't have cared about Shallan's arrival nearly as much. 

I don't disagree, but I'd say that takes about as much headcanon as claiming misdeeds by Adolin. It's a way of explaining the situation that requires going beyond the text, and making assumptions about Alethi women and dating practices that aren't really spelled out. Could the women  have been all ego? Sure, but wouldn't they have mothers and fathers that would pressure them to try again for those highprince grandkids and those royal connections? Could the women still have been after Adolin, even when Shallan got her foot in? Sure, but if it is relevant to the characters, one would expect it to be something you would notice while reading, isn't it? 

I personally would assume that Sanderson really, really didn't want to write about all the background girls of the camps having catfights to get some oh-so-desirable man, since that could easily go into very cringey cliches. But I don't think he very convincingly avoided it.  

Don't get me wrong, I am fine with the result. But if one is looking for flaws in the writing of Adolin and his relationship I do think this one is a fair place to look. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

This is a great point in that the ladies of the Court shouldn't have been put off by his inattentiveness/faux pas. 

That said, I can also see it more as a commentary about the women own levels of self-centeredness that they allowed those to put them off of such an eligible bachelor given a couple of facts.

I always thought it was implied (but not stated) that some/most of these brightladies were looking for an excuse to "reject" the Kholin name that was rapidly becoming anathema to the Poltical scene of the Shattered Plains (ref: Danlan/Inkima conversation at the winehouse in WoK). At least, the was the only thing that made sense to me as to why so many of them had such extreme reactions to minor grievances (though the sisters' problem might not have been quite as minor). 

 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

42 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I always thought it was implied (but not stated) that some/most of these brightladies were looking for an excuse to "reject" the Kholin name that was rapidly becoming anathema to the Poltical scene of the Shattered Plains (ref: Danlan/Inkima conversation at the winehouse in WoK). At least, the was the only thing that made sense to me as to why so many of them had such extreme reactions to minor grievances (though the sisters' problem might not have been quite as minor). 

 

That's an interesting take on it that I hadn't considered before!

There is maybe a bit more textual support for the state of the Kholin house politically at the start of WoK that might support this idea generally. I'd never considered this side of it before, but it's certainly as plausible but still headcannon as anything else!

2 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

I don't disagree, but I'd say that takes about as much headcanon as claiming misdeeds by Adolin. It's a way of explaining the situation that requires going beyond the text, and making assumptions about Alethi women and dating practices that aren't really spelled out. Could the women  have been all ego? Sure, but wouldn't they have mothers and fathers that would pressure them to try again for those highprince grandkids and those royal connections? Could the women still have been after Adolin, even when Shallan got her foot in? Sure, but if it is relevant to the characters, one would expect it to be something you would notice while reading, isn't it? 

I personally would assume that Sanderson really, really didn't want to write about all the background girls of the camps having catfights to get some oh-so-desirable man, since that could easily go into very cringey cliches. But I don't think he very convincingly avoided it.  

Don't get me wrong, I am fine with the result. But if one is looking for flaws in the writing of Adolin and his relationship I do think this one is a fair place to look. 

Fair points and I agree about the second note about Sanderson trying to avoid those cliches and maybe failing. At the same time, I think some of this can be attributed to the fact that at the start of writing the series, Adolin was not planned to be a primary character like he became through the course of the first 5 books. 

It could well be that the failings in characterization of Adolin in WoK and how well his relationships of his are/not fleshed out has more to do with a lack of original plan than a failure to execute on Sanderson's behalf. Maybe a good question for Brandon if someone wants to ask that rather than a magic system interaction question some time!

[agrabes]

I think it's best to put the Kal/Ad/Shal love triangle behind us, but I can't resist throwing in my two cents:

I think it is slightly too harsh to call Adolin a womanizer, but also - Sanderson's style (especially back then) is to really stay away from talking about sex.  I think you could reasonably imply that Adolin had sex with a few of his suitors over the years, based on his behavior.  But mostly, he was just a guy doing what most would do in his situation - taking advantage of the fact that he can get any woman he wants whenever he wants.  And none catch his eye to make it worth it to him to settle down.  I would argue that's even true with Shallan for quite a while - he only goes along with it because he's formally tied down.  So, not necessarily a womanizer but not a paragon either.

In my opinion, Kaladin did have true feelings for Shallan and did understand her better than Adolin in most areas, prior to their marriage.  The one thing he didn't understand was the way she dealt with her trauma because the one thing he wanted (to set down his burdens for a bit) was the thing that was making Shallan worse and worse.  I don't think that Adolin somehow saw Shallan better than Kaladin, but in that one area he did understand her better.  And then, Kaladin chose to move on after Shallan and Adolin got married.

I do think that in RoW, Adolin and Shallan got some real romance scenes that made it feel like they'd grown into their relationship.  I bought it at that point.

So my view - Shallan and Kaladin were a better match as the characters were in WoR, but Shallan changed in Oathbringer so they were not a good match anymore.  And then by RoW, Adolin came to truly care about her and they developed a real relationship.

[Treamayne]

29 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Sanderson's style (especially back then) is to really stay away from talking about sex.  I think you could reasonably imply that Adolin had sex with a few of his suitors over the years, based on his behavior. 

I'm sorry, but I find that unlikely. In a society that required two 50+ year old adults to be chaperoned and not left alone (Dalinar and Navani) because it was unseemly, I doubt Adolin was finding alone-time with any of the women he courted. Even WoK Ch 18 points out his date with Jenala was attended by her Handmaid to make sure they were not alone.

[Returned he/him]

Even if a society proscribes something that doesn't mean it never happens. Jasnah and Hoid, for example, didn't really hew to the courtship-and-chaperones idea. Intercourse seems like something Adolin would have avoided (his position would have made an accidental pregnancy a huge issue) but I would be surprised to find that he'd had no intimate interactions at all. The rich and influential should have a lot of space to break convention, especially if they can do so discreetly. Adolin was happy enough to flout Vorin prohibitions on certain games, for example.

Real-world societies have demanded things like staying faithful within a marriage and not having sex outside of a marriage, but it's hardly rare that some individuals just want a good time and ignore those. Sanderson's writing has avoided the whole subject almost entirely until WaT, where it was... less than elegant, I felt. I guess that whether or not those sorts of activities happen but only off-screen or if the characters by and large do not have that dimension to them at all is up to the reader.

Edited January 14, 2025 by Returned

[agrabes]

On 1/13/2025 at 8:12 PM, Treamayne said:

I'm sorry, but I find that unlikely. In a society that required two 50+ year old adults to be chaperoned and not left alone (Dalinar and Navani) because it was unseemly, I doubt Adolin was finding alone-time with any of the women he courted. Even WoK Ch 18 points out his date with Jenala was attended by her Handmaid to make sure they were not alone.

I mean - in similar real world societies with similar courtship rituals people found a way.  Adolin was never much of rule follower.  I don't think he was having sex with each and every one of the women, but to me it was implied he'd probably done it a few times.  Not in a predatory way, just in the way that most teenagers want to have sex and he would have had the opportunity.  I think that Adolin has also changed as a character since WoK - I think if the Adolin of WaT were single he would be super serious about the courtship and only meet with candidates he really thought would work as a match for him and make a serious attempt at marriage.

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I mean - in similar real world societies with similar courtship rituals people found a way.  Adolin was never much of rule follower.  I don't think he was having sex with each and every one of the women, but to me it was implied he'd probably done it a few times.  Not in a predatory way, just in the way that most teenagers want to have sex and he would have had the opportunity.  I think that Adolin has also changed as a character since WoK - I think if the Adolin of WaT were single he would be super serious about the courtship and only meet with candidates he really thought would work as a match for him and make a serious attempt at marriage.

Understood. I'm not saying you should change your headcanon - I'm only saying that your interpretation was not supported by the text.

While I would not say Adolin (or Renarin) were the most devout of Vorins presented in WoK - to me, the way they reacted to Navani trying to be alone with Dalinar, and the way we actually see Adolin interact with his ex-girlfriends does not indicate a typical "sex first" young adult persona. His story about the "sword" makes it seem to me that he was mostly just oblivious to body language (and conversational subtext) - both the "messages" he was sending with his behaviour and the ones he received.

[agrabes]

42 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Understood. I'm not saying you should change your headcanon - I'm only saying that your interpretation was not supported by the text.

While I would not say Adolin (or Renarin) were the most devout of Vorins presented in WoK - to me, the way they reacted to Navani trying to be alone with Dalinar, and the way we actually see Adolin interact with his ex-girlfriends does not indicate a typical "sex first" young adult persona. His story about the "sword" makes it seem to me that he was mostly just oblivious to body language (and conversational subtext) - both the "messages" he was sending with his behaviour and the ones he received.

I think it's fair to disagree with my conclusion but I don't think you can say "it's not supported by the text."  That implies it's completely wrong and just something I like to imagine despite evidence to the contrary.  It's not explicitly written in the text - I'm not arguing that it is.  But, my interpretation is definitely supported by the text.  There are plenty of things written in WoK and WoR which a reasonable person would interpret the same way I did.  Adolin's personality definitely makes it reasonable to believe he would sneak off and have sex with one or more of his suitors.  He doesn't have to be "sex first" to have sex with one of dozens of women who throw themselves at him over a period of multiple years.  He would have to be pretty much asexual or have strong religious or other moral convictions not to.  We know he isn't asexual nor does he hold strong moral convictions at the time of WoK - so it's reasonable to think he did.   

Your position is also supported by the text - the text never says he did have sex with anyone.  It's completely silent on the issue - which is Sanderson's typical writing style when it comes to sex especially in his earlier books.  Unless Sanderson ever provides an explicit WOB, it's all just speculation.  That's the whole point of this discussion - I'm telling you what I think and you tell me what you think.  Maybe one of us changes the other's mind but probably not and that's fine.  But you have no more standing than I do.  Virgin Adolin is just as much a headcanon as sexually active Adolin.

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, agrabes said:

I think it's fair to disagree with my conclusion but I don't think you can say "it's not supported by the text."  That implies it's completely wrong and just something I like to imagine despite evidence to the contrary.  It's not explicitly written in the text - I'm not arguing that it is.  But, my interpretation is definitely supported by the text.  There are plenty of things written in WoK and WoR which a reasonable person would interpret the same way I did.  Adolin's personality definitely makes it reasonable to believe he would sneak off and have sex with one or more of his suitors.  He doesn't have to be "sex first" to have sex with one of dozens of women who throw themselves at him over a period of multiple years.  He would have to be pretty much asexual or have strong religious or other moral convictions not to.  We know he isn't asexual nor does he hold strong moral convictions at the time of WoK - so it's reasonable to think he did.   

Your position is also supported by the text - the text never says he did have sex with anyone.  It's completely silent on the issue - which is Sanderson's typical writing style when it comes to sex especially in his earlier books.  Unless Sanderson ever provides an explicit WOB, it's all just speculation.  That's the whole point of this discussion - I'm telling you what I think and you tell me what you think.  Maybe one of us changes the other's mind but probably not and that's fine.  But you have no more standing than I do.  Virgin Adolin is just as much a headcanon as sexually active Adolin.

I'm sorry I marginalized your opinion. That was not my intent - I was just trying to say "no direct evidence."

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I'm sorry I marginalized your opinion. That was not my intent - I was just trying to say "no direct evidence."

It's not as serious as all that - appreciate the reply and happy debating!

[cvamoca]

Ok, womanizer really isn't what I meant- as once he's with Shallon he's committed to her. But he still likes to look. So does my husband and looking is fine, just nothing more than that. We make it a joke, I'll point out a jogger and say she's pretty Ger. Naw, don't care for her hair, he'd say. Or words to that effect. I know it's objectifying a woman he doesn't know and won't ever meet, and that is wrong but we are also humans, and my husband and I joke about his enjoyment of "Loopers" women who ran a loop around our town. His ex girlfriend would get mad if he even liked a woman on TV, so I wasn't going to be like that. 26 yrs together thus far.

My Mom might have said Adolin's an old rip or letch, except he isn't old or particularly lecherous.