Did Gavilar really speak with the Stormfather in the prologue?

[dr0w_ranger]

The entity Gavilar spoke with in the prologue did not sound or behave like the Stormfather despite being called that. I have finished WAT and still remain unconvinced that this was indeed the Stormfather. We know Odium was also searching for a champion, and thats one of my theories of what it was. I also thought it could be Ishar seeking his own champion, which would tie in very nicely with the end of ROW and his madness. I know the Stormfather/Tanavast admitted to speaking with Gavilar and pointed out his faults but there was no direct reference to the prologue.

Also, there is an exchange in the prologue which states - "You must take this, Gavilar said to the Stormfather. They must not get it Tell..my brother..HE must find the most important words a man can say..." "No, the Stormfather said, tough a hand took the sphere. Not him. I'm sorry Gavilar. I made that mistake once. I will never trust your family again" - well we know the Stormfather picked Dalinar anyway, and we know he knew Dalinar is a good choice.

So What is this thing speaking to Gavilar? 

Edited December 23, 2024 by dr0w_ranger

[logicless.bt]

Unfortunately, the Stormfather himself tells Dalinar that he spoke to Gavilar in WaT. I was on the Storm faker side for a long time, but it has been disproven

[alder24]

4 hours ago, dr0w_ranger said:

The entity Gavilar spoke with in the prologue did not sound or behave like the Stormfather despite being called that. I have finished WAT and still remain unconvinced that this was indeed the Stormfather. We know Odium was also searching for a champion, and thats one of my theories of what it was. I also thought it could be Ishar seeking his own champion, which would tie in very nicely with the end of ROW and his madness. I know the Stormfather/Tanavast admitted to speaking with Gavilar and pointed out his faults but there was no direct reference to the prologue.

Also, there is an exchange in the prologue which states - "You must take this, Gavilar said to the Stormfather. They must not get it Tell..my brother..HE must find the most important words a man can say..." "No, the Stormfather said, tough a hand took the sphere. Not him. I'm sorry Gavilar. I made that mistake once. I will never trust your family again" - well we know the Stormfather picked Dalinar anyway, and we know he knew Dalinar is a good choice.

So What is this thing speaking to Gavilar? 

Let the Stormfaker theory die, Ishar was an Unmade-faker, who chose Szeth as a new Herald around 2 decades before Gavilar was assassinated. It was the Stormfather and he confirmed it. He also confirmed that he lied to Dalinar and that he had his own plans and Dalinar Ascending to Honor was not a part of it. 

In Gavilar's prologue the Stormfather noticed that Dalinar has a potential so this explains why the Stormfather went back on his words. He couldn't find anyone else who would fit better and once he saw that Dalinar wanted to change and become more than he was by visiting the Nightwacher, he started giving him visions the night before he went to the Valley.

WaT prologue:

Quote

He has potential you do not see, that one.
“Dalinar? Of course he does. If I can keep him pointed the right direction, he will burn down entire nations.” Gavilar simply had to ply him with alcohol the rest of the time, so that he didn’t burn down this nation.
He could be more than you think.

WaT ch 22:

Quote

I WILL NOT GIVE YOU ANSWERS, DALINAR. The Stormfather’s voice grew softer, smaller. You were supposed to be better than this. You were supposed to be better than your brother.
“My brother?” Dalinar said, frowning.
He was arrogant. I knew it. I’ve watched both of you for a long time. Even at his worst though, Gavilar didn’t strive for godhood. Why, Dalinar? Why must you seek this?
[...]
“So which is it, Stormfather?” Dalinar demanded. “Is it impossible, or merely implausible? Is it wrong, or is it the only way to unite people, as I’ve been trying all along?”
It …
This is not my plan.
“Your plan?” Dalinar pushed. “I thought this was Honor’s plan. You said he charged you to find people for the visions—so they could prepare for the coming dangers. You’re filling a role, just like me.”
You have no idea what you’re talking about.

WaT ch 49:

Quote

“So like your brother,” the Stormfather whispered. “So arrogant.”
“Why do you have an opinion on Gavilar?” Dalinar asked, confused. “Did you interact with him?”
The Stormfather seemed to come more alert at this, as if he’d said something wrong. Revealed something.
[...]
“What are you afraid of?” Dalinar asked. “Stormfather? What lies have you been telling me!”
Only the ones, the Stormfather said in his mind, that you deserve.

[dr0w_ranger]

I dont think any of this confirms its the real Stormfather though. Why would he not trust Gavilar's family, what is the secret there? Surely he is not just saying that he would not trust them because Gavilar was not suitable, as he had not committed or given Gavilar anything at that point. I think Brando Sando is deliberately playing us, and i think the paragraphs @alder24 quotes further prove the theory that it was NOT the Stormfather. Had he been there when Gavilar died, do you really think Brando Sando would miss the opportunity to use that? That this is the only reference he would make to the link between the spren and Gavilar? I remain strongly unconvinced. Who could it be if it were not the Stormfather or Ishar though? Taravangian or Rayse? WOA implies Rayse spent a lot of time looking for a champion and only quotes Dalinar, Kaladin and Moash as possibilities.

[alder24]

24 minutes ago, dr0w_ranger said:

I dont think any of this confirms its the real Stormfather though. Why would he not trust Gavilar's family, what is the secret there? Surely he is not just saying that he would not trust them because Gavilar was not suitable, as he had not committed or given Gavilar anything at that point.

It's very definite to me. WaT clearly proves that there was no Stormfaker. Gavilar showed his true self to the Stormfather and he was an arrogant, deceiving, power hungry and selfish man - that's the reason why the Stormfather said to dying Gavilar that he won't trust his family again. And the Stormfather didn't trust Dalinar, they kept fighting and arguing, the Stormfather was lying to him and hiding information from him. The way the Stormfather behaved in WaT matches perfectly how he behaved with Gavilar. They are the same people.

The Stormfather gave a lot to Gavilar, they'd spent years together, he gave them vision, lots of information and most importantly he gave him the chance to become his champion. Gavilar failed him and was exposed himself as a crem.

30 minutes ago, dr0w_ranger said:

Had he been there when Gavilar died, do you really think Brando Sando would miss the opportunity to use that? That this is the only reference he would make to the link between the spren and Gavilar?

Just like he made Jasnah confront Shallan for joining Ghostbloods or made Shallan confront Kaladin for killing Helaran, or how Adolin was forced to face the consequences of killing Sadeas, or how he used Moash or El to their full potential in WaT - oh wait, he didn't. Brandon doesn't always fully explore all opportunities he sets up, it's nothing new that Gavilar and Dalinar were another wasted opportunity. It happens, there is only so much he can fit into the book, unfortunately some things had to be skipped.

[coolsnow7]

On 12/23/2024 at 6:08 AM, dr0w_ranger said:

I have finished WAT and still remain unconvinced that this was indeed the Stormfather.

The year is 2054. Brandon has completed the Cosmere, with the final prologue to the Stormlight Archive being Gavilar’s death from the Stormfather’s perspective. He’s written a 3,000 page autobiography of the Stormfather with 7 chapters devoted to the events leading up to the night in question as well as a more detailed version of their dialogue. Later in the series we find out that Gavilar had these conversations in a room lined with aluminum so that no one could have interfered with their bond even if they knew about it. And in the final Cosmere installment, a 20,000 entry Encyclopedia of the Cosmere, Brandon includes a special 40 page essay entitled “There is no Stormfaker, You Storming Airsick Jabronis. Stop Doing Drugs!”

And despite all those efforts, the first response to the essay on www.17thshard.com is a post entitled “Stormfaker: was Brandon hiding one last secr-“ which was apparently cut off as the poster was writing mid-overdose on a mixture of horse tranquilizers and copium.

Edited December 25, 2024 by coolsnow7