Yet another boring Shard-Dawnshard chart thread.

[adouloumis]

Yes, I know there are a million threads like this one. But there is a reason for that: its fun to make them. So here goes my effort. And now we know all 16 shards and half the Dawnshards so with only two missing pieces we maybe have a real shot at figuring it out.

Presuppositions

1) I assume that the missing two Dawnshards are along the lines of Unite/Bind and Divide/Break. We have no evidence to that and could easily be along the lines of Feel and Think to account for the many Shards that are cognitive concepts. However I think the Dalinar is Unity thing is related to a Dawnshard, so we go with this. Obviously if this is wrong, everything else here is wrong as well. So for the purposes of this thread the 4 Dawnshards are:

Change: "the will and knowledge of a deity demanding that something change, adapt, or become something new"

Exist: "the will and knowledge of a deity demanding that something comes alive, perseveres or remains unchanged"

Unite: "the will and knowledge of a deity demanding that two become one, that something is added or what has been decreed remains bound"

Break: "the will and knowledge of a deity demanding that one becomes two or that something is lessened"

2) I assume that each Dawnshard manipulates a spiritual quantity. Fortune for Change the quantity relating to the future. Identity for Exist since this has to do with the sense of self. Connection of course for Unite. And that leaves Investiture for Break (taking from the era 2 spiritual feruchemical table, this is a very classic line of theorizing). However the allomantic/feruchemical tables are stated to be works in progress, enhanced as Scadrial's understanding of the cosmere increases. So I postulate that this table is wrong and there is a 4th spiritual quantity that is yet unknown to Scadrial. I think that quantity will be related to the Anti-Light creation (and will probably reach Scadrial during the next era). Let's call it Phase (since it is the phase that changes to cause destructive interference with normal Light) and correlate it with the 4th Dawnshard of Break.

3) I assume that Adonalsium was split as following: The 4 Dawnshards split his body of investiture into 4 Clusters, assigning it Intents according to their Commands. Then in order to prevent his chance of reforming the murderers did it again into each cluster. So let's say, after the first splitting they took the Change Cluster and "filtered" it again into 4. So you have the Change-Change Shard, Change-Unite Shard, Change-Exist Shard etc. This is again a very classic line of theorizing and supported by the mural in Aimia.

However, in combination with the 2nd presupposition this leads into the following: There are 4 Shards that their Intent corresponds to a Dawnshard Command and 12 that their Intent corresponds to 2 Dawnshards. If indeed the Dawnshards manipulate spiritual quantities it stands to reason that the 4 Shards with singular Dawnshardic command are each the best at manipulating their respective quantity, while each of the other twelve have some affinity to two of the quanitities but are not the best at anything.

This aims to explain differences between the Shards such as their ability to see the future. If this line of speculation is correct, there will be one Shard that corresponds to Change-Change that will be the best at seeing the future, three more will be better than the others (Change to Exist etc.) and the twelve others will have some capacity but are about the same.

4)This line of thinking provides the limitations I imposed during the characterisation of the Shards in their Dawnshardic components. 

i) Cultivation is better than Honor in future sight.

ii) Preservation is better than Ruin in future sight

iii) Stated in WaT by T-Odium is that Odium and Honor are similar while Ruin and Preservation are different. I assume this means that they belong to the same Cluster

iv) Ruin and Odium both refer to their passion, in italics. I will reference the relevant wob soon but this is deliberate and relevant. While this could be a cultural thing between Ati and Rayse or something else entirely, I take it to assume that they belong to the same cluster.

Another line of speculation that I decided to ignore is how Ruin and Preservation are unable to create by themselves, but able to do so together. Since it is stated that the Dawnshards are the power of creation it would make sense that all 4 Dawnshards are represented between them. I was however unable to make this work.

Assigning Shards to their Dawnshardic components

The reasoning up to here is the part I am most proud of, the individual assignments get messy and are very much subject to interpretation of words. I find myself changing my mind constantly and will continue to do so until we have more information. I will assume that each intent is described in a form of "X in order to Y" eg. "Exist in order to Exist" or "Exist for the sake of Existence". 

So in order of descending certainty:

Honor: Unite for the sake of Unity

The divine sense of oaths and laws, even natural ones. Honor again and again binds others, even other Shards to agreements, he makes sense as the master of Connection.

Cultivation: Exist for the sake of Change

The divine sense of boundless growth. She is better at future sight than Honor and this makes sense if Change is one of her Dawnshardic components, allowing her an affinity for Fortune.

Ruin: Break for the sake of Breaking

The mindless force of entropy, devoid of any reason to destroy other than destruction itself. If the presuppositions are correct this would make him also a master of Phase, the best at annihilating other investiture through anti-Light (anti-mists?).

Odium: Unite for the sake of Breaking

Hatred unites people but its always towards the lessening of something. This also puts Odium into a Cluster with both Ruin and Honor, sharing a Dawnshardic component with each.

Autonomy: Break in order to Exist

I do not claim to understand what Autonomy as a divine sense even means, but this seems very much in alignment with what she does, breaking herself into avatars.

Whimsy: Change for the sake of Change.

In my opinion this feels very much fitting for the Shard of Whimsy, though I could easily see this reversed with Culti.

Preservation: Change for the sake of Existence

This one I admit is a tad of a strech, that Preservation is part of Change. I think the more natural fit would be Exist for the sake of Existence. But I tried to fit this with my presupposition 4ii and I think that makes sense, since Preservation does take actions and is not a complete force of stasis as Ruin says. This classification puts him both at being better than Ruin at future sight while also making them completely independent in terms of Clusters, so it would make sense for Harmony to have trouble keeping them both.

Reason: Exist for the sake of Existence

Ok, hear me out. Consider it from a Cartesian perspective: "I think therefore I am". To exist can mean to persevere but also can mean to become aware. I think it makes some sense that the exist^2 Shard is the one referencing sentience. Also I think it makes sense if this is the Shard that tries to hide and survive, perhaps the Vessel tried to name the Shard Reason, but the actual Intent being something else and leading to cowardly behaviour.  

Endowment: Exist in order to Unite

If we consider this Unite more in the sense to increase, to make something more, then I think this fits Endowment well. From here on these streches will be common, but I think that even if we saw the actual answer then some stretching is going to be required in order to fit all these terms and words neatly.

Devotion: Unite to Exist

This makes sense to me as the sense of love, how we need to come together and how necessary it is for all of us.

Now for the real spec: For the following Shards we know close to nothing and can only guess at what they try to do. Thus I assigned them in vibe-based fashion but I hold no attachment over these. If anyone has any idea that makes sense that would be very helpful.

Dominion: Exist to Break

To assert dominance over others can be seen as breaking/lessening them.

Mercy: Change for the sake of Unity

To me mercy does imply a temporal aspect, an evolution from a state of non-forgiveness to one of well mercy, so it can be seen as change for the sake of bringing people together.

Invention: Break to Change

Breaking down the old to create something novel seems in line with what this Shard does in creating mega-structures.

Valor: Break for the sake of Uniting

To be valorous is to becoming more after being less, so I am going with this (honestly the last 3 are almost random)

Ambition: Unite for the sake of Change

Unite in to bind more things to you (Sorry guys, I will rethink this tomorrow, I have been at this for 5 hours and  words have lost all meaning).

Virtuosity: Change for the sake of Breaking

Perhaps some artsy explanation? I do not understand Virtuosity.

 

So tl;dr is the following table (underscored the parts that are almost certainly wrong):

Cluster of Exist

Exist for the sake of Existing: Reason, master of Idenity

Exist for the sake of Change: Cultivation, affinity to Identity and Fortune

Exist for the sake of Unity: Endowment, affinity to Identity and Connection

Exist for the sake of Breaking: Dominion, affinity to Identity and Phase

 

Cluster of Change

Change for the sake of Change: Whimsy, master of Fortune

Change for the sake of Existing: Preservation, affinity to Fortune and Identity

Change for the sake of Unity: Mercy, affinity to Fortune and Connection

Change for the sake of Breaking: Virtuosity, affinity to Fortune and Phase

 

Cluster of Unite

Unite for the sake of Unity: Honor, master of Connection

Unite for the sake of Existing: Devotion, affinity to Connection and Identity

Unite for the sake of Change: Ambition, affinity to Connection and Fortune

Unite for the sake of Breaking: Odium,  affinity to Connection and Phase

 

Cluster of Break

Break for the sake of Breaking: Ruin, master of Phase

Break for the sake of Existing: Autonom, affinity to Phase and Identity

Break for the sake of Changing: Invention, affinity to Phase and Fortune

Break for the sake of Uniting: Valor, affinity to Phase and Connection

 

Some additional points of disprovability of this theory, apart from the pressupositions, as any theory should have:

1) The capabilities of future sight etc. of the Shards are due to their vessel's intelligence/ability

2) The pattern of one Shard being the best at something (let's say future sight) followed by six who have some affinity for it and nine who have none, is not observed.

So thanks for reading and hope that yet another thread of the same old topic is not too dreadful. Now I am going to stop procrastinating and go write the paper in physics I have due, instead of speculation in fantasy metaphysics.

Looking forward to your answers!

 

[Qianweilian He/him]

The problem is, it feels like "break" and "change" aren't really that different. It might make since if we can 10 or 16, but I feel like 4 can be divided up more.

[Dalluminum he/him]

On 12/20/2024 at 12:34 PM, adouloumis said:

Mercy: Change for the sake of Unity

Oooh, I like this one.

All in all, great theory, I love it. I love the whole "spiritual quantity affinities" thing, it really seems to fit well with what we know right now.

As soon as I read the line about Reason in WaT, I was like "Ooh, time to go update all the Shard speculation threads," and then we got another Dawnshard name-drop and I had to resist putting the book down and immediately theorising.

Also, "Whimsy, master of Fortune" made me laugh for no reason.

[Telemakus]

I have to preface that I know very little about the cosmere and read Rhythm of War first. I read Sanderson for a light break from other stuff. I started reading from the beginning to confirm a theory. It isn't fantasy, it's science fiction. When we apply Clark's law it makes a lot of sense. Two highly advanced civilizations that we would consider magical find a planet they both want to an extreme degree. This is x thousands of years ago.  They essentially destroy each other and have been fighting in one way or another ever since. The fight in one part is who got there first.

The broken plains with the connected ruins of domes indicate where one of the civilizations landed.  Shard armor and swords are advanced nanotechnology.  There is a character of a hologram generated by a senile AI who's programming has been corrupted and hardware is no longer self repairing. The wind is an out of control weapon.

Somewhere along the line a weapon was developed that "broke" the boundary of a universe that is more quantum than ours thus generating spren. Syl says as much in either Radiance or Oathbringer, I can't remember which. Syl is just a fluttering potential until thought of as an individual and given a personality. That's what spren are, quantum potentiality. 

The legends shape what the spren are and what they can do. The spren disappeared when the Knights Radiant disbanded as they were not longer needed so they returned to their potential state until needed again. The emotions the have are placed on them are those of the Knights because they believe that's how they would have felt. 

The mystical properties of the shards were also placed by legend. At one point in history there were armies so equipped. Time has buried all but a few. There origin has been lost so legends explain them. 

That's enough for now.

 

[thegreatdolphini]

I have not thought a ton about this but based on some of my own thoughts and previous charts I've seen I think the most likely breakdown is this:

 

• Exist:
  • Preservation
  • Endowment
  • Reason
  • Virtuosity
• Change:
  • Ruin
  • Cultivation
  • Invention
  • Ambition
• Bind:
  • Honor
  • Dominion
  • Devotion
  • Autonomy
• Feel:
  • Odium
  • Valor
  • Mercy
  • Whimsy

The only one I'm not really sure about is Virtuosity, I don't have any good ideas of where to place it and I just had an extra spot in Exist.