Yumi and Blackthorn

[WindWaker]

Spoiler Warning: Ending of Yumi and the Nightmare Painter

 

 

In the ending of Yumi, we see her brought back by Painter. Technically though, she died all those years ago when the father machine started up, which means that Yumi herself was probably past to the beyond, leaving only a cognitive shadow that was maintained by the machine. When painter brought her back, her investiture materialized into a copy of Yumi with identical memory.

I mention this because of the ending of WaT where we see Dalinar probably going to the beyond, effectively making him a 100% dead, but curiously, it is also mentioned that Blackthorn still lives on. Given that Dalinar has already Ascended, it’s possible that Blackthorn could exist as a Cognitive Shadow. Could this mean that, with sufficient Investiture, we might see a "copy" of Dalinar brought back, much like Yumi?

[Sheepyshoe]

I think we are for sure seeing a cognitive shadow-esque Blackthorn (should it be a Spiritual Shadow since he’s coming from the Spiritual realm?), which is apparently possible because Physical Realm Dalinar imprinted Spiritual Realm Vision Blackthorn with his memories. Possibly similar to how Tanavast imprinted the Stormfather with his memories. 
 

To your point of will we see Dalinar as we know him be brought back… based on Yumi, and what we’re seeing with Blackthorn, it seems possible but I don’t know if would make sense with his journey and sacrifice.
 

 

[alder24]

39 minutes ago, WindWaker said:

Spoiler Warning: Ending of Yumi and the Nightmare Painter

In the ending of Yumi, we see her brought back by Painter. Technically though, she died all those years ago when the father machine started up, which means that Yumi herself was probably past to the beyond, leaving only a cognitive shadow that was maintained by the machine. When painter brought her back, her investiture materialized into a copy of Yumi with identical memory.

I mention this because of the ending of WaT where we see Dalinar probably going to the beyond, effectively making him a 100% dead, but curiously, it is also mentioned that Blackthorn still lives on. Given that Dalinar has already Ascended, it’s possible that Blackthorn could exist as a Cognitive Shadow. Could this mean that, with sufficient Investiture, we might see a "copy" of Dalinar brought back, much like Yumi?

There are two different ways of explaining what Cognitive Shadows are, both are valid - the first one is that they are a copy made out of investiture while their soul passed into the Beyond, the other is that their soul becomes invested enough to prevent them from passing into the Beyond. Which one is true, we don't know, different characters would have different opinions. 

It seems to me that on Komashi the second explanation is more in line with what was said in the book. When the Father Machine was turned on, everyone was consumed by it and their souls were spit out as a Cognitive Shadows (the Shroud) that was anchored by the Machine. Yumi and Yoki-Hijo were the same, the difference is they were invested so highly that they broke free of the Father Machine. Yumi already was a Cognitive Shadow when the Painter brought her back, but she didn't pass into the Beyond yet. She stopped herself before that was completed - she wasn't a copy (or a copy of a copy), it was the same Yumi who defeated the Machine.

Blackthorn lives on, because Dalinar interacted with a simulated Blackthorn and made him self-aware. That version of him is not a Cognitive Shadow, it's a self-aware piece of investiture that took the form of Blackthorn. Dalinar on the other hand passed into the Beyond, where Shards can't reach him and he can't be made into a Cognitive Shadow anymore - it has to be done before passing, you have to invest the soul before it goes to the Beyond. Now Dalinar can't return. I don't think Yumi's situation is comparable to that of Dalinar and Blackthorn.

Spoiler

Questioner

I think there's a flaw in my understanding of Cognitive Shadows. I assume that... they would have more visibility into the Cognitive Realm, like a Herald would be able to see spren more easily, that kind of thing. Is that incorrect?

Brandon Sanderson

That is incorrect. A Cognitive Shadow simply means a copy of the Cognitive side made by a deep amount of Investiture. And everybody has a Cognitive side. Basically it's a fake soul. Or, fake is the wrong term. Fake is the wrong term. Even in-world they don't know if it's really them or not. It is Investiture has replaced the Investiture that is fleeing from them as they die, or enhancing it in some way to keep it around. So some Cognitive Shadows trapped on the Cognitive Realm are going to be-- have a lot of Cognitive-- I mean, they're there, right? But some Cognitive Shadows inhabiting a body in the same way that your mind inhabits your body, the way the cosmere works... So a Herald is going to feel like they are alive just like-- but their soul has been somehow transformed. It's not really transformed, it's been reproduced or copied by an injection of Investiture...

And I'll say for the purpose of the recordings, I haven't canonized any of that terminology that I just used about Cognitive Shadows. I'm just talking about it, I'm not necessarily saying that this is how you are supposed to refer to it. You can refer to it however you want. I've often used the metaphor of how fossils get made. When a fossil is made there is a pattern and it is slowly replaced with another substance that is stronger and more endurant, and has the shape of it, but is it still the bone? When you have a fossil bone is it the dinosaur bone? In most cases no, but yes. It's the ship of Theseus sort of thing again. Is this the bone or is it not? Is this the soul? Is this the person or is it not? That's the same sort of thing is happening with Cognitive Shadows. And it's happening on all three Realms to an extent, though of course the body is not. The body stays. It's happening on two Realms. It's happening Spiritually, mostly Cognitively.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

[WindWaker]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

It seems to me that on Komashi the second explanation is more in line with what was said in the book. When the Father Machine was turned on, everyone was consumed by it and their souls were spit out as a Cognitive Shadows (the Shroud) that was anchored by the Machine. Yumi and Yoki-Hijo were the same, the difference is they were invested so highly that they broke free of the Father Machine. Yumi already was a Cognitive Shadow when the Painter brought her back, but she didn't pass into the Beyond yet. She stopped herself before that was completed - she wasn't a copy (or a copy of a copy), it was the same Yumi who defeated the Machine.

Blackthorn lives on, because Dalinar interacted with a simulated Blackthorn and made him self-aware. That version of him is not a Cognitive Shadow, it's a self-aware piece of investiture that took the form of Blackthorn. Dalinar on the other hand passed into the Beyond, where Shards can't reach him and he can't be made into a Cognitive Shadow anymore - it has to be done before passing, you have to invest the soul before it goes to the Beyond. Now Dalinar can't return. I don't think Yumi's situation is comparable to that of Dalinar and Blackthorn.

 

Huh, that makes a lot of sense. So in this case, if Blackthorn was made self-aware, will it be a separate individual? 

[Texside he/him/his]

5 hours ago, WindWaker said:

Huh, that makes a lot of sense. So in this case, if Blackthorn was made self-aware, will it be a separate individual? 

That's my understanding. I think it would be like Taravangian loaded Dalinar from an earlier save with different choices.

[alder24]

17 hours ago, WindWaker said:

Huh, that makes a lot of sense. So in this case, if Blackthorn was made self-aware, will it be a separate individual? 

Yes, Blackthorn is a separate individual with many memories that Dalinar gave him.