What does oathpact mean now?

[neshua_kadal he/him]

Finished the book, lots of thoughts, however, I still don't understand the point of the Reforged Oathpact. Previously, Heralds went to Braize to serve as a lock for the fused souls that went there after their bodies died. Hence it made sense that the heralds decided to do this, even if they later realized they could be tortured by all the souls they trap. But now, they sealed something that protects the spren on Roshar. What is that something and how are they sealing it that Taravangian cannot access it? Also why would they ever return if they're sealing a part of power that can be accessed and lifts the lock if they ever return? Wouldn't their return for any reason let Taravangian unmake spren? Yet it seemed like Kaladin was very sure they'll return. I understand they still go to Braize because it pulls the souls, and they may even lock any fused still there, but that's not the primary point of the oathpact now, so what other thing goes there that they seal and by sealing that, protect the spren?

[alder24]

12 hours ago, neshua_kadal said:

Finished the book, lots of thoughts, however, I still don't understand the point of the Reforged Oathpact. Previously, Heralds went to Braize to serve as a lock for the fused souls that went there after their bodies died. Hence it made sense that the heralds decided to do this, even if they later realized they could be tortured by all the souls they trap. But now, they sealed something that protects the spren on Roshar. What is that something and how are they sealing it that Taravangian cannot access it? Also why would they ever return if they're sealing a part of power that can be accessed and lifts the lock if they ever return? Wouldn't their return for any reason let Taravangian unmake spren? Yet it seemed like Kaladin was very sure they'll return. I understand they still go to Braize because it pulls the souls, and they may even lock any fused still there, but that's not the primary point of the oathpact now, so what other thing goes there that they seal and by sealing that, protect the spren?

The Oathpact is a cage forged out of the souls of Heralds. This time, instead of sealing away Fused and Voidspren on Braize, they used their existing Connections to Odium and Honor and used their souls to form a cage around all spren of Roshar. Their souls were still sent to Braize (as that's a part of the Oathpact and something in Braize's core attracts souls to the planet) but I believe if they return, that would not cause the Oathpact to stop protecting spren. Previously, they were tortured and they allowed Fused to return on Roshar, which was bending the Oathpact, this time their minds are protected from the torture and they won't allow to bend the Oathpact, even if they return that will not give Retribution an access to spren's power. I don't think Fused and Voidspren are still affected by the binding as they were previously, it looks like Voidspren remain on Roshar and that means the Oathpact no longer seals them away on Braize. WaT ch 144:

Quote

A ring of ten, in their strength, could bind Retribution in some small way. Could it not?
“… Yes,” Ishar said. “We bear Honor’s power. Much as our Connection to Odium helped us bind him and his spren long ago, our Connection to Honor could let us bind Retribution. In a small way.” The elderly Herald wiped blood from his mouth. “We could maybe prevent him from taking the spren to himself. We could seal away that part of his power, weaken him. Yes … Yes, that could work.”
[...]
“We could perhaps have peace between Returns,” Ishar said. “Instead of torture. Retribution will certainly seek vengeance against us if we bind him, and will attempt to make us break the pact, but if he cannot find our minds…”
 

 

[Isilel]

What I don't understand is, even if the binding is stopping Retribution from destroying them directly, why can't Retribution's agents use Herald-trapping daggers on helpless mindless aspects of the Heralds on Braize?

Or, if his Honor part restrains him from directly ordering it like that, why wouldn't some vengeful Fused do it on their own initiative? 

There are currently at least 2 such daggers that we know  of in the Cognitive Realm, with Felt and Shallan, but there is no reason why there couldn't be more.

[neshua_kadal he/him]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Oathpact is a cage forged out of the souls of Heralds. This time, instead of sealing away Fused and Voidspren on Braize, they used their existing Connections to Odium and Honor and used their souls to form a cage around all spren of Roshar. Their souls were still sent to Braize (as that's a part of the Oathpact and something in Braize's core attracts souls to the planet) but I believe if they return, that would not cause the Oathpact to stop protecting spren. Previously, they were tortured and they allowed Fused to return on Roshar, which was bending the Oathpact, this time their minds are protected from the torture and they won't allow to bend the Oathpact, even if they return that will not give Retribution an access to spren's power. I don't think Fused and Voidspren are still affected by the binding as they were previously, it looks like Voidspren remain on Roshar and that means the Oathpact no longer seals them away on Braize. WaT ch 144:

 

Ok so the connection lets them protect the spren somehow, still, I don't understand why returning from Braize won't open the lock? If it doesn't matter, then why did they go there? Specially, Kal had his OG body, why give that up if going to Braize isn't a requirement, but just a phenomenon that souls are pulled there and immortal souls just go there if they have no bodies.

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

What I don't understand is, even if the binding is stopping Retribution from destroying them directly, why can't Retribution's agents use Herald-trapping daggers on helpless mindless aspects of the Heralds on Braize?

Or, if his Honor part restrains him from directly ordering it like that, why wouldn't some vengeful Fused do it on their own initiative? 

There are currently at least 2 such daggers that we know  of in the Cognitive Realm, with Felt and Shallan, but there is no reason why there couldn't be more.

Probably because the souls cannot wield physical weapons just like that. Afterall, everyone on Braize doesn't possess a body when they go there. Unless they travel via Shadesmar, but that'll require a perpendicularity to travel, which doesn't exist on Braize as there is no Shard there.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, neshua_kadal said:

Ok so the connection lets them protect the spren somehow, still, I don't understand why returning from Braize won't open the lock? If it doesn't matter, then why did they go there? Specially, Kal had his OG body, why give that up if going to Braize isn't a requirement, but just a phenomenon that souls are pulled there and immortal souls just go there if they have no bodies.

Truthfully, I don't fully understand the role of Braize in the new Oathpact, however returning to Roshar won't open the lock, simply because previously they agreed to open it after torture, now they are immune to torture and they won't agree, but they can still return to Roshar which is separate from agreeing to open the lock. Fused were torturing Heralds and made them agree to open the lock, which caused another Return, but this time they won't do it. That's how I understand it. We definitely need Brandon to explain this to us.

[neshua_kadal he/him]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Truthfully, I don't fully understand the role of Braize in the new Oathpact, however returning to Roshar won't open the lock, simply because previously they agreed to open it after torture, now they are immune to torture and they won't agree, but they can still return to Roshar which is separate from agreeing to open the lock. Fused were torturing Heralds and made them agree to open the lock, which caused another Return, but this time they won't do it. That's how I understand it. We definitely need Brandon to explain this to us.

Ahan they forced them to agree to open the lock? I always thought it was just the act of heralds returning that caused this, but what you said makes more sense, as even one herald returning caused a desolation. 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, neshua_kadal said:

Ahan they forced them to agree to open the lock? I always thought it was just the act of heralds returning that caused this, but what you said makes more sense, as even one herald returning caused a desolation. 

Yes, it was one of them agreeing to let Voidbringers return to Roshar that made everyone return as well. OB ch 38:

Quote

HOWEVER, IF ANY ONE OF THE TEN AGREED TO BEND HIS OATH AND LET VOIDBRINGERS PAST, IT OPENED A FLOOD. THEY COULD ALL RETURN.

 

[+Child of Hodor]

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

Truthfully, I don't fully understand the role of Braize in the new Oathpact, however returning to Roshar won't open the lock, simply because previously they agreed to open it after torture, now they are immune to torture and they won't agree, but they can still return to Roshar which is separate from agreeing to open the lock. Fused were torturing Heralds and made them agree to open the lock, which caused another Return, but this time they won't do it. That's how I understand it. We definitely need Brandon to explain this to us.

It seems like Braize was always an attractor of investiture with its strange metal core "well of souls". That's just the default setting for some reason and the Heralds took advantage of that to create a cage around it. Even now that the cage is being applied to spren on Roshar it doesn't change default setting of cognitive shadows being pulled to Braize. It's interesting it doesn't pull most Roshar spren there only Cognitive shadows and spren connected to them like Nale's spren. 

Quote

"This may well require you to travel to Braize, and its well of souls, to seal the enemy" Tanavast WaT Ch. 64

"I WAS TOO INTRIGUED BY A THIRD WORLD, MORE DISTANT FROM THE SUN. A COLD, DARK ROCK ... IT HAD A CURIOUS PROPERTY: A CORE OF A STRANGE METAL THAT ATTRACTED INVESTITURE" WaT Ch. 100

 

[b12moguj]

On 12/16/2024 at 4:02 PM, Isilel said:

What I don't understand is, even if the binding is stopping Retribution from destroying them directly, why can't Retribution's agents use Herald-trapping daggers on helpless mindless aspects of the Heralds on Braize?

Or, if his Honor part restrains him from directly ordering it like that, why wouldn't some vengeful Fused do it on their own initiative? 

There are currently at least 2 such daggers that we know  of in the Cognitive Realm, with Felt and Shallan, but there is no reason why there couldn't be more.

I'm assuming the new Oathpact protects against being caged in a gemstone, either they added a patch that prevents being trapped or created a new permanent connection to Roshar that would prevent them from slowly dissipating if caged. This was not done before because such trapping did not exist nor was it anticipated.

What I'm wondering is what about antistormlight (although there no stormlight to create antilight from).

 

And, in any case, what's preventing the heralds from returning immediately and actually help fixing the mess, since there are (in theory) no fused to trap? 

[Nitpicking]

2 hours ago, b12moguj said:

And, in any case, what's preventing the heralds from returning immediately and actually help fixing the mess, since there are (in theory) no fused to trap? 

They haven't done their training montage yet. Haven't you ever seen a movie?