Make predictions about Era 2's magic system

[Atlas333]

Of all the changes Roshar is going through this one is the most interesting to me - how will the magic systems of Roshar change? This is too big a topic to feel confident predicting which is why I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts.

 

Enlightened Surgebinding - This will become the main magic system of Roshar. Many spren will be affected by the change to the tone of Roshar and will seek out enlightening. This not only allows them to access their powers with war light but also grants them access to one "enlightened" surge and one normal. Will these new surgebinders have oaths? Probably, in my opinion, but maybe the oaths will be different? (This might be better labeled as voidbinding. I honestly have no clue)

Surgebinding - Radiants will continue to recruit and progress through oaths. They will be reliant on artifabrians to convert war light and tower light into stormlight. This will likely make traditional radiants less common as their powers are harder to access. I imagine that we won't see many new radiants of this kind as people begin to prefer enlightened spren.

Fused - I imagine some fused will either be released or seek out antilight. Retribution will begin creating new fused. We don't know much about the process for creating fused so it's possible that new brands could be created but I doubt it (maybe we could see an adhesion fused now?).

Forms of power - While closely related to Fused, I consider forms of power their own magic system. I'm sure there are plenty forms we haven't seen especially as parshendi focused on regal forms during the war. In a time of peace, they may begin experimenting with new spren granting new forms of power. Additionally, Ba-Ado-Mishram may offer forms to singers but I imagine they'd be the same forms we always see.

Old Magic - Cultivation's departure means that boons and curses most likely won't be granted anymore (she could have left the Nightwatcher on Roshar but why would she?)

Fabrials - I imagine fabrials can still be powered via war light but I could be wrong. Maybe they'll learn how to make surge fabrials or they will continue experimenting with Navani's "organic fabrials."

Unoathed - Adolin has shown that plate and blade can be bonded without oaths. These warriors will likely be unique to Azir. 

Heralds - Magically speaking I don't imagine much to change about the Herald's powers.

Unmade - I'm not sure if the unmade are protected under the original oathpact, but I imagine that the power of honor sees the unmade as allies now and won't allow any to be destroyed and as spren are protected I don't predict any new unmade will be created (unless we count the Blackthorn). I wonder if they'll find the Thrill by the end of the time jump.

 

The biggest question (and the one I feel least confident answering), is how will these magic systems interact? I would love to hear other's thoughts.

[DSCrankshaw]

Radiants do appear to be able to use Towerlight without any need of conversion. I don't know whether they can use Warlight or not. If they can, then while it will be harder to get access to, Radiants and Fused can use the same source of power.

I also think that Stormlight will become available in the second arc, possibly from Syl (who seemed like she may have inherited the Stormfather's role), or from one of the splinters of Honor.

[Elder]

17 minutes ago, DSCrankshaw said:

Radiants do appear to be able to use Towerlight without any need of conversion. I don't know whether they can use Warlight or not. If they can, then while it will be harder to get access to, Radiants and Fused can use the same source of power.

I also think that Stormlight will become available in the second arc, possibly from Syl (who seemed like she may have inherited the Stormfather's role), or from one of the splinters of Honor.

I agree radiants are likely quite capable of using Warlight.  I’m significantly less confident in their ability to obtain it, as you have pray to Retribution to get the gems/sphere’s infused.  He may be less likely to give it to enemies. 
I also have questions about the shelf life. If it comes every night, I’m guessing it’s quite short, to ensure everyone’s dependence on Retribution.  He seems to be a very controlling god.  Which suit’s Taravangian’s stated purposes just fine… though that may result in a lot of problems with his reign.

[Atlas333]

22 minutes ago, DSCrankshaw said:

Radiants do appear to be able to use Towerlight without any need of conversion. I don't know whether they can use Warlight or not. If they can, then while it will be harder to get access to, Radiants and Fused can use the same source of power.

Sorry, I meant they’ll need to covert tower light if they want to take it out of the tower

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

Sorry, I meant they’ll need to covert tower light if they want to take it out of the tower

 

Whatever method the Ghostbloods developed for exporting stormlight might prove helpful there. Conveniently, they have a number of high-ranking Ghostbloods as prisoners.

But Radiants should also be able to use Lifelight that Lift can infuse into spheres (as shown in RoW), as an interim step. It wouldn't surprise me if it proves to be less volatile than stormlight. 

But eventually, yea, I hope that Rushu, the flying glove guy from RoW, Huio and hopefully even Vasher get together and figure out how to split Towerlight into stormlight and lifelight.

It would still limit the Radiants in interesting ways, because it was hinted that they don't have that many gems in Urithiru anymore, and now they'd have to go into the world without the chance of a top-up and would have to manage their supplies of investiture very carefully.

That is, once Jasnah figures out how to Transport them out of the Tower bubble in the physical realm.

[Elder]

Lift is the first flash back character of Era 2. She’s also probably the only Radiant (under current conditions) who can operate completely independent of Retribution.  So it makes sense that she’ll go on a quest.

I’m betting she’s sent to find the Nightwatcher in order to field a bondsmith who can help them continue to operate free of Retribution.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

Lift is the first flash back character of Era 2. She’s also probably the only Radiant (under current conditions) who can operate completely independent of Retribution.  So it makes sense that she’ll go on a quest.

I’m betting she’s sent to find the Nightwatcher in order to field a bondsmith who can help them continue to operate free of Retribution.

Before we are getting ahead of ourselves, how about we answer the most fundamental question: What are the goals of the Knights Radiant after the Stormfall?

• there will be no more Desolations
• Retribution rules according to a treaty. Do they really want to break it?
• the population of Roshar will not exactly love them after their leader losing them the war

And, much worse

• Other Shards will see Roshar as Retribution's home system. They will fight Roshar as a whole.

[Elder]

42 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Before we are getting ahead of ourselves, how about we answer the most fundamental question: What are the goals of the Knights Radiant after the Stormfall?

• there will be no more Desolations
• Retribution rules according to a treaty. Do they really want to break it?
• the population of Roshar will not exactly love them after their leader losing them the war

And, much worse

• Other Shards will see Roshar as Retribution's home system. They will fight Roshar as a whole.

- it kinda is a desolation already.  Still.  Geography is rearranged. Infrastructure crippled.  Kingdoms fallen.  Meteorological chaos.  After 10 years, I imagine they’re barely thinking about recovery.
- Retribution is kinda hardwired by both the combined intent of his shards, his own plans prior to stormfall, and his economic system of investiture towards tyranny.  And our first book is about a Edgedamcer (Remmembering all those people who the new system will be oppressing) who has a propensity for breaking rules.  Yes. The treaty will be broken.  Plus we just had a book about how Oaths are not the ultimate virtue. 
 

you’re also assuming the Radiants will be the ones taking initiative.  My money is on Retribution subtlety goading them into violating the Treaty/contract do that he can unleash retribution upon them.

- I expect a certain amount of mixed feelings from the population of Roshar.  Whole can of worms there.  Worth its own thread.  Suffice to say, there will be room for discontent under the Tyranny of Retribution.  But yes, winning hearts and minds will be a struggle.  Good obstacle for heroes to overcome.

- yup.  But our heroes may or may not know that. Not unlike Kelsier’s crew having no idea what the Lord Ruler did for Scadrial.  May not stop them even if they find out.  Since Retribution’s plans and intent is to go to war with them anyway, they probably will want to stop him.

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by Elder

[+Oltux72 he/him]

11 hours ago, Elder said:

- Retribution is kinda hardwired by both the combined intent of his shards, his own plans prior to stormfall, and his economic system of investiture towards tyranny.

Outright tyranny? How? Retribution carries Honor around as a component. Certainly he will rule. And he will not brook expressions of dissent. But outright tyranny? Can he do such things as arbitrary arrests or just take away posessions? I doubt it. Too much honor.

[Njvodin]

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Outright tyranny? How? Retribution carries Honor around as a component. Certainly he will rule. And he will not brook expressions of dissent. But outright tyranny? Can he do such things as arbitrary arrests or just take away posessions? I doubt it. Too much honor.

Honor's power only sees Oaths being kept as satisfactory, so if someone breaks an Oath (if it's taken extremely literally, then breaking the law can be seen as breaking an Oath), then Retribution will have no issue in bringing, well, retribution. 

That being said, Honor's power is somewhat alive, so it may learn that such an extreme, exclusive outlook isn't strictly right, so eventually, maybe by the second era, the power is more restrictive on Retribution

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 minutes ago, Njvodin said:

Honor's power only sees Oaths being kept as satisfactory, so if someone breaks an Oath (if it's taken extremely literally, then breaking the law can be seen as breaking an Oath), then Retribution will have no issue in bringing, well, retribution.

Exactly. But now look at it from the perspective of the common people of Alethkar or Herdaz. Sure, Retribution can have you crucified for shoplifting. Yes he can have you conscripted to fight some offworlders.

Your local lord, however, can also have you executed for minor crimes. He could conscript you for fighting some other noble lord.
At least Retribution cannot have you jailed on trumped up charges just to leave you to rot in prison waiting for a trial indefinitely postponed.

Retribution does not tell you that the god all your ancestors believed in is dead. Retribution does not just give your enemy what he wants. Retribution does not fight for a year for a result he could have had then. Retribution did not lose the war. Retribution brings peace.

Who is better?

[Isilel]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Retribution brings peace

 

We shall see. Odium wanted his legions to be hardened and practiced for his conquest of the cosmere.

We have no idea if all of the nations that allied with him had the wit or the desire to stipulate peace in their agreements. I bet that the current leaders of Jah Keved, for example, did not.

There is also perpetual darkness that should really lead to a nuclear winter. Perpetual rain that should ruin crops.

And possibly a sudden lack of or a severe  drop off in ambient investiture leading to the dying of flora and fauna that depends on it and isn't actively tended by people. Also, epidemics, since that same ambient investiture was suppressing the spread of infectious diseases. Etc.

Plenty of scope for the application of Radiant powers to make things better, IMHO.

 

[Elder]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. But now look at it from the perspective of the common people of Alethkar or Herdaz. Sure, Retribution can have you crucified for shoplifting. Yes he can have you conscripted to fight some offworlders.

Your local lord, however, can also have you executed for minor crimes. He could conscript you for fighting some other noble lord.
At least Retribution cannot have you jailed on trumped up charges just to leave you to rot in prison waiting for a trial indefinitely postponed.

Retribution does not tell you that the god all your ancestors believed in is dead. Retribution does not just give your enemy what he wants. Retribution does not fight for a year for a result he could have had then. Retribution did not lose the war. Retribution brings peace.

Who is better?

the Local Lord vs Retribution? Both are bad.  And under the current system, the local lord will be upheld.  And there’s plenty of wiggle room where despots can abuse their power legally.  Rule of law, contracts, oaths, can all be exploited, as the last book has illustrated.

The difference between Retribution and your local lord is: the local lord is a lot easier to replace, or you can leave.  
 

and a god whose stated goal is interstellar war cannot be described as bringing peace.  Retribution will always bring further retribution.

Thinking about it, thanks largely to Honor’s constraints upon him, Odium has been largely operating as Retribution would which is why he was able to entice the Shard of Honor. The bonds of Honor are now integrated, so, other than the ability to leave Roshar, nothing really has changed.  Still the same hatred, still the same plans, still the desire to destroy all rivals.  Now he just wants to impose honor while he does it.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Elder

[Herald of the Wind]

 

Quote

A dark tempest that would blanket the land. All would wither unless they used his Light to grow and thrive. They would have to rely on him for everything.

I don't think retribution will be anything close to a pleasant god, even to people who support him. He isn't a tyrant, he is what they aspire to be. He will have no shortage of rebellions, the whole Mink plot in Herdaz seems to set that up for the back half.

I don't think stormlight is infact gone. Syl is now storm mother, and let's not forget the quote "Honor is not dead, so long as he lives in the hearts of men". I could actually see Retribution being unable to attack the Knight Radiants fighting back against him directly so long as they follow their oaths from the radiants and Honor. Honor demanded Retribution uphold the terms even though Dalinar broke them. Honor will demand the Knights be allowed to follow their oaths. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pray directly to Honor to refill stormlight into gems at midnight. Or worst case stormlight will return once the heralds and Syl return.

I think Honor might actually be one of the harder shards to work with. Especially given how it has a budding consciousness and was told by Dalinar to watch and learn. Plus with Ba-Ado threatening to take one or both shards and the shard of honor seeming to be slow to trust humans I actually see Retribution as less functional than Harmony. It probably has very specific things the shards will work together on but any deviation from those will split the shards quickly.

[DSCrankshaw]

4 hours ago, Lorewarden said:

I don't think stormlight is infact gone. Syl is now storm mother, and let's not forget the quote "Honor is not dead, so long as he lives in the hearts of men". I could actually see Retribution being unable to attack the Knight Radiants fighting back against him directly so long as they follow their oaths from the radiants and Honor. Honor demanded Retribution uphold the terms even though Dalinar broke them. Honor will demand the Knights be allowed to follow their oaths. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pray directly to Honor to refill stormlight into gems at midnight. Or worst case stormlight will return once the heralds and Syl return.

I actually think you're right about that. Though I think I prefer Stormqueen rather than Stormmother, in keeping with how Kaladin described her: "In a moment, she wore something very different. A regal gown, fit for ... for a queen."

One other thing I'm not sure of is whether there will be peace, truly. It may be that Retribution will order it, but we see from Rayse's negotiations with Dalinar that he wasn't sure the Fused would obey him. In the past, border skirmishes between and within countries were common, even in times of peace. I wouldn't be surprised if Azir faces border skirmishes with human and singer enemies.

[Herald of the Wind]

4 hours ago, DSCrankshaw said:

I actually think you're right about that. Though I think I prefer Stormqueen rather than Stormmother, in keeping with how Kaladin described her: "In a moment, she wore something very different. A regal gown, fit for ... for a queen."

One other thing I'm not sure of is whether there will be peace, truly. It may be that Retribution will order it, but we see from Rayse's negotiations with Dalinar that he wasn't sure the Fused would obey him. In the past, border skirmishes between and within countries were common, even in times of peace. I wouldn't be surprised if Azir faces border skirmishes with human and singer enemies.

I don't particularly like Storm-mother either but it follows the naming convention.

I don't think Retributions lands will be peaceful even without rebellion. He has to train his Army somehow. I see it similar to how the Alethi fought themselves and anyone else for next to made up reasons.