You must not trust yourself with me.

[Stark he/him]

We have been theorizing how this book will end, and if Sanderson will stick the landing.  A lot of us have theorized that the good guys will not win.  Not necessarily lose, but not win.  Pulling a victory against a godling, even a nascent one dealing with it's predecessors bad ideas, in only ten days is a tall order.  It also sets up the next five books, and potentially some cosmere wide conflicts in later eras, once the planets start to mingle.

So how do the heroes fail to secure a win?  Or achieve a tie?

Quick interlude: I hate spoilers.  Especially implied spoilers before a book has even been released.

Spoiler

Esquire just released an article on this book, where they quote Brandon saying it is the biggest swing of his career, that will make or break him.  He has been quoted saying that the last 200 pages of this book will have us cheering or screaming.  And many places liken this to his Endgame, where famously the Avengers pulled a costly victory out of a resounding loss.

There are enough references there to imply what's going to happen at a level I dislike as it verges on outright spoilers.  But that is relevant to this idea.

I think the key to this is the contract Hoid created to bind Odium.  He wrote that contract quickly, with the input of dragon friends and Jasnah, but it was still Hoid who wrote it.  And Hoid who could have slipped a detail or two in that Jasnah might have missed, and Dalinar definitely did, as I don't recall Dalinar having time to read the contract.  

The problem here is that Hoid is not playing for the same stakes as the Rosharans, and his objective may be parallel to theirs, but it is not the same.  Hoid even stipulated that the win condition maintains Odium as a Rosharan problem, rather than a Cosmere problem. 

From Words of Radiance

Quote

And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen.

I don't think Hoid is the villain, but I think he is playing chess while the Rosharan's fight for their lives.  He is about to sacrifice a rook (Tower -> Kholin analog) to trap a king.  I think they Rosharans are aware that they should not trust Hoid, but have to because of his knowledge, and as a result they are trusting him too much.  I think Hoid set this up to sacrifice them.  And that will be the twist that has us screaming. 

 

Because saving Roshar does not accomplish Hoid's goal of keeping Odium contained.

[Master Silver]

I read an interview this week that someone did with Brandon, and it seemed like they were saying a dead god was the real villain. This could make a lot of sense. Honor chose to plunge Roshar into an eternal war for the sake of His dive ego... I mean honor. He invested the 10 best humans on earth with loads of stormlight and kept knitting them back together so they could be tortured eternally. They only way to truly win this war is a complete genocide of a species. And on top of all of that Odium may actually be the hero the cosmere needs to be rescued from a bunch of broken gods and Honor is stopping that from happening.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

4 hours ago, Stark said:

I think the key to this is the contract Hoid created to bind Odium.  He wrote that contract quickly, with the input of dragon friends and Jasnah, but it was still Hoid who wrote it.  And Hoid who could have slipped a detail or two in that Jasnah might have missed, and Dalinar definitely did, as I don't recall Dalinar having time to read the contract.  

I thought the contract was written by Hoid but then discarded as unusable. And then Odium and Dalinar made their own terms, which the Sibling was able to generate into a written out document, no? I think Hoid would not have been able to add anything in that wasn't explicitly agreed to by Dalinar and Odium.

Quote

“We have to reread the agreement between him and Dalinar,” Wit said. “Now.”

Jasnah had a copy. After Dalinar and Odium had agreed upon the terms, the Sibling had been able to quote for them the exact wording. They indicated that an agreement between gods wasn’t quite a contract, but it could be written out as one.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

Ah, yes, your hidden quote confirms the theory I have held for a long, long time. I would give Aharietiem or at least a partial shattering like the Shattered Plains a 50% chance of happening in Book 5. Now that I have seen this quote, that edges things up a notch, especially for a full-blown Aharietiem. They keep talking about the Tranquiline Halls and going back to Ashyn. I'm thinking that could be the 2nd half of the story. That and traveling Shadesmar and the cosmere.

[alder24]

On 12/4/2024 at 3:00 PM, Stark said:

I think the key to this is the contract Hoid created to bind Odium.  He wrote that contract quickly, with the input of dragon friends and Jasnah, but it was still Hoid who wrote it.  And Hoid who could have slipped a detail or two in that Jasnah might have missed, and Dalinar definitely did, as I don't recall Dalinar having time to read the contract.  

Small problem with this, Hoid's contract was rejected in the end. Odium couldn't have kept its terms. While Dalinar ultimately agreed to keep Odium trapped on Roshar, it wasn't because he trusted Hoid (he didn't), but he trusted Honor. Dalinar and Odium created new terms that weren't made by Hoid at all. Hoid couldn't have slipped anything into the final terms. 

RoW ch 112:

Quote

[Wit's terms]
“By this, if my champion wins,” Odium said, “then Roshar is mine? Completely and utterly. And if yours wins, I withdraw for a millennium?”
[...]
“Very well,” Dalinar said. “But as the terms state, if your champion is defeated, it isn’t only you who must withdraw for a thousand years. The Fused must go with you, locked away again, as well as the spren that make Regals. No more forms of power. No more Voidspren.” The light pulsed inside Odium and he turned his eyes back toward the horizon.
“I … cannot agree to this.”
“The terms are simple,” Dalinar said. “If you—”
“I said I cannot agree,” Odium said. “The Everstorm has changed everything, and Cephandrius should have realized this. Singers can adopt Regal forms powered by the Everstorm. The Fused are free now; they can be reborn without my intervention. The Oathpact could have imprisoned them, but it is now defunct. I am literally unable to do as you ask, not without destroying myself in the process.”
[...]
Who do you trust more? Wit, or the god of anger?
It wasn’t really in question. He didn’t trust Wit much, but he didn’t trust Odium at all. Besides, if Honor had died to trap this god here on Roshar, Dalinar had to believe the Almighty had done so for good reason.
[new terms]
Odium waved dismissively at the contract Wit had drawn up. “No more talk of delays, of sending me away. Of half measures. We have a contest of champions on the tenth of next month,” Odium said. “At the tenth hour.”

But yeah, you're right - Hoid doesn't play fair with Rosharans and he will sacrifice them if necessary. He can't be trusted. Some in recent chapters did start to question why Rosharans have to deal with Odium and why it can't be others Shards problem. 

[Stark he/him]

On 12/4/2024 at 9:22 AM, Master Silver said:

I read an interview this week that someone did with Brandon, and it seemed like they were saying a dead god was the real villain. This could make a lot of sense. Honor chose to plunge Roshar into an eternal war for the sake of His dive ego... I mean honor. He invested the 10 best humans on earth with loads of stormlight and kept knitting them back together so they could be tortured eternally. They only way to truly win this war is a complete genocide of a species. And on top of all of that Odium may actually be the hero the cosmere needs to be rescued from a bunch of broken gods and Honor is stopping that from happening.

I mean, I do not have a super hard time coming to terms with the idea that 16 people who decided to kill god, take his powers for their own and rule in his place are entirely altruistic.  Maybe their reasons were justified.  Maybe they had good intentions.  

But immediately after, many of them broke their oaths of non-interference to each other and ignored the rules they put in place.  They have squabbled and killed each other.  Finding out that every one of the original 16 was at best a self interested neutral party, at worst an egotistical maniac who thought they could do better than god?  That would not surprise me.

In the letters between Hoid and Frost, Rayse was listed as the worst of the 16.  No one mentioned whether the best of them was actually any good.  And so far, what we have seen of the others is not super encouraging.

Heck, Cultivation and Honor abandoned the singers in favor of humans, for a reason we don't know yet.

Still, don't trust Hoid.  And it would not surprise me if he decided to be the Scar to Dalinar's Mufasa at the end of this book.  Tears in his eyes or no.

[Calten_Gnomercy]

I’ve considered this too.

 

Even his relationship with Jasnah throws me for a loop. I just don’t believe he’s into it for the “right” reasons. It reminds of of Ico (Star Lords father) with how he went from planet to planet trying to procreate. Always killing the women.

The other thing, is I can’t recall a future version of Hoid where anyone currently involved in Roshar see him in a negative light. Specifically thinking about Sigzil in Sunlit man. There’s no animosity between them. 
 

I have to imagine Sigzil would know if Hoid set them all up. Maybe he wouldn’t. I dunno.

 

RAFO!