teknopathetic he/him Posted November 28, 2024 Posted November 28, 2024 (edited) In Rhythm of War, one of the underrated developments was Venli discovering Cultivation and Odium's merged Rhythm of "Freedom" [not exactly the name but this is as close as Venli gets] Quote The tone snapped into her mind, Cultivation and Odium mixing into a harmony, and it thrummed through Venli. She opened her eyes as power spread from her through the stones. They began to shake and vibrate to the sound of her rhythm, liquid, forming peaks and valleys in time with the music. The floor, ceiling, and walls before her rippled, and a trail of people formed from the stone. Moving, alive again, as they strode away from pain, and war, and killing. Freedom. The stones whispered to her of freedom. Rock seemed so stable, so unchangeable, but if you saw it on the timescale of spren, it was always changing. Deliberately. Over centuries. She had never known her ancestors, but she knew their songs. She could sing those and imitate their courage. Their love. Their wisdom. In Winds and Truth, we have so many characters yearning for Freedom from their promises or positions 1. Nohadan goes on and on about how people should have the freedom to leave their positions. 2. The Oathgates realizing they wanted freedom after being locked for so long in their position. 3. The Sibling and Navani trying to find ways to give more freedom to fabrial spren. 4. Sja-Anat wanting freedom for her and her children. 5. The Wind was locked away, and seems to have vanished along with the heralds (who are the epitome of oath-horror) Is this book building upon a series-long theme regarding freedom from bonds? Are we getting hints that cultivation and Odium merged is actually an amazing thing? Is freedom from oaths what Roshar needs to counter-balance the harms of Oaths? Anyone else picking up on this as well? Edited November 28, 2024 by teknopathetic 5
Ewery1 Posted November 29, 2024 Posted November 29, 2024 In my view the driving theme of the Cosmere is how each of the Shards alone without the context of their 15 counterparts are bad. Context is what allows you to make well informed & considered decisions. Ruin & Odium without moderation are clearly bad - but so is Preservation, who supported the Lord Ruler because he engineered an autocracy which kept things stagnant and unchanging for a thousand years. And thus, I think this book is about how the divine command of Honor - to make and keep bonds - by itself is also bad. Freedom is important and the ability to end a bond if it was made in an ill considered manner is a right I believe we should all have access to. I definitely think you have the right idea - but I think it goes further than this. What is Cultivation without moral understanding? The will to grow and change is not a good in and of itself. These attributes are not meant to be alone, though neither are they evil when considered in context and with moderation. Odium is Passion, and I believe him when he says as much. It can be good to be angry when it is righteous. It is what makes us change. 9
BinarySecond Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 On 11/29/2024 at 12:48 AM, Ewery1 said: In my view the driving theme of the Cosmere is how each of the Shards alone without the context of their 15 counterparts are bad. Context is what allows you to make well informed & considered decisions. Ruin & Odium without moderation are clearly bad - but so is Preservation, who supported the Lord Ruler because he engineered an autocracy which kept things stagnant and unchanging for a thousand years. And thus, I think this book is about how the divine command of Honor - to make and keep bonds - by itself is also bad. Freedom is important and the ability to end a bond if it was made in an ill considered manner is a right I believe we should all have access to. I definitely think you have the right idea - but I think it goes further than this. What is Cultivation without moral understanding? The will to grow and change is not a good in and of itself. These attributes are not meant to be alone, though neither are they evil when considered in context and with moderation. Odium is Passion, and I believe him when he says as much. It can be good to be angry when it is righteous. It is what makes us change. I love this because I agree. Right now it's fair to think of the shards as shards but I think it's very unrealistic that Adonalsium has 16 different types of power that all balanced each other out. It's more likely that the shattering created these faceted elements of the whole but once reunited it will be much more functional. 1
agrabes Posted December 3, 2024 Posted December 3, 2024 On 11/28/2024 at 2:55 PM, teknopathetic said: In Rhythm of War, one of the underrated developments was Venli discovering Cultivation and Odium's merged Rhythm of "Freedom" [not exactly the name but this is as close as Venli gets] In Winds and Truth, we have so many characters yearning for Freedom from their promises or positions 1. Nohadan goes on and on about how people should have the freedom to leave their positions. 2. The Oathgates realizing they wanted freedom after being locked for so long in their position. 3. The Sibling and Navani trying to find ways to give more freedom to fabrial spren. 4. Sja-Anat wanting freedom for her and her children. 5. The Wind was locked away, and seems to have vanished along with the heralds (who are the epitome of oath-horror) Is this book building upon a series-long theme regarding freedom from bonds? Are we getting hints that cultivation and Odium merged is actually an amazing thing? Is freedom from oaths what Roshar needs to counter-balance the harms of Oaths? Anyone else picking up on this as well? I think you're both right and wrong here. Right in that I think a theme of the series will be understanding that locking in commitments just for the sake of locking them in is not a good thing in and of itself. There are a lot of examples we see in the books of how Honor and its concept of sticking to commitments and oaths can be a bad thing and like you said the Heralds' predicament and Honor's lack of understanding about is the prime example. Szeth's main arc which the story should be focused around also fits - he murdered dozens of people just because he felt his honor required him to do it and now he is punishing himself for those crimes because he also feels like his honor requires him to view himself as a terrible person. So it's being set up to be a major theme of this book I think. We will also probably learn the secret of why Honor shattered and I think it has something to do with this theme. But - I don't think that the segment you quoted is implying that Odium+Cultivation=Freedom. I don't know/remember the wider context of this quote, but it reads to me more like Venli being tempted to just run off and ignore everything else going on. Like a sinister type of freedom - you can go off and be free for a while until the world burns down around you kind of thing. Conceptually too - I don't think that works (Cultivation + Odium). Cultivation is the concept of growing, improving, and changing. Positive (developing others to reach their full potential) and Negative (scheming to make others growth in a direction that serves your own personal ambitions). Odium calls himself Passion but I think he's been more accurately described in the series as a god's sense of divine wrath - the part of a monotheistic god that considers itself above all others and demands complete respect and obedience and is willing to destroy entire nations if they don't comply. This is implied to be the reason why Odium wants to destroy all other shards (both Rayse and Taravangium) because its fundamental nature is to feel it can be the only one. I think if Cultivation and Odium were to merge (which is probably very difficult considering the nature of Odium is to not want to merge) then the result would not be freedom, but tyranny. It might create a shard named "Control" or something like that - developing people but only in the very specific path that serves itself and not caring about the results for others.
Shuffel Posted December 4, 2024 Posted December 4, 2024 On 11/28/2024 at 3:55 PM, teknopathetic said: In Rhythm of War, one of the underrated developments was Venli discovering Cultivation and Odium's merged Rhythm of "Freedom" [not exactly the name but this is as close as Venli gets] In Winds and Truth, we have so many characters yearning for Freedom from their promises or positions 1. Nohadan goes on and on about how people should have the freedom to leave their positions. 2. The Oathgates realizing they wanted freedom after being locked for so long in their position. 3. The Sibling and Navani trying to find ways to give more freedom to fabrial spren. 4. Sja-Anat wanting freedom for her and her children. 5. The Wind was locked away, and seems to have vanished along with the heralds (who are the epitome of oath-horror) Is this book building upon a series-long theme regarding freedom from bonds? Are we getting hints that cultivation and Odium merged is actually an amazing thing? Is freedom from oaths what Roshar needs to counter-balance the harms of Oaths? Anyone else picking up on this as well? Cool theory. The biggest freedom you are missing is the end of slavery, both parah and human slaves.
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