Enteric Harmonium

[Light In the Darkness]

So, harmonium blows up in water, which makes it hard to burn allomantically to find out what it would do. But what if it was coated? The mechanism of metal burning isn't well understood, but could an Enteric coating, or even a metal shell, protect a bead of harmonium for long enough for it to be allomantically used? What would the effect be?

As part of the risk analysis, does anyone know what the energy density of harmonium is in a harmonium-water explosion? I think we know about enough to calculate rough numbers, but I don't have the time right now or book access to do any of it.

[Sophrosyne he/him]

I'm almost positive there's a WoB on this, but a cursory glance found nothing. That said I'm pretty sure you'd have to eat through the coating BEFORE you can burn the coated metal in which case *BOOM*.

 

As for risk... [Joking] I mean coat the flacks in oil and let a gold compounder have a go. Could be worse right?
in all seriousness I'm sure there is enough to geuss, but it would be a geuss, I don't recall any no real measurements used at any point. and you'd need SOME to get anything accurate.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Light In the Darkness said:

So, harmonium blows up in water, which makes it hard to burn allomantically to find out what it would do. But what if it was coated? The mechanism of metal burning isn't well understood, but could an Enteric coating, or even a metal shell, protect a bead of harmonium for long enough for it to be allomantically used? What would the effect be?

1 hour ago, Sophrosyne said:

I'm almost positive there's a WoB on this, but a cursory glance found nothing. That said I'm pretty sure you'd have to eat through the coating BEFORE you can burn the coated metal in which case *BOOM*.

Yes, you would have to burn through the outer metal first before you'll be able to burn Harmonium. It's a possible solution to the problem, but still very, very dangerous.

Spoiler

Lurcher

Can you burn a metal wrapped in another metal, if both are Allomantic? Like, the inner metal, could you just burn that before?

Brandon Sanderson

No, you're gonna have to work your way through the outer one.

Lurcher

And what if it was a non-Allomantic metal? The same?

Brandon Sanderson

It's gonna depend on how thick it is, and stuff. But I would say, if you wrap it in a non-Allomantic metal, that's not good for getting to the metal. It's viable, but it just depends on how thick it is, and things like that. Like, sometimes things have been plated to keep the access to the metal off, but usually you would want to do that in aluminum, to make sure.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 22, 2017)

 

1 hour ago, Light In the Darkness said:

As part of the risk analysis, does anyone know what the energy density of harmonium is in a harmonium-water explosion? I think we know about enough to calculate rough numbers, but I don't have the time right now or book access to do any of it.

We have no idea. We only know it's like super-cesium.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said ettmetal is chemically reactive, not nuclear.

The longer answer makes it sound like Harmonium isn't a Lerasium/Atium alloy, but a whole new metal. He described it as "super-cesium," and that its volatility was based on electrons, not on protons or neutrons.

"It is not unstable, it is reactive. So it's like a "super-cesium". It reacts so violently..."

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

3 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said:

So, harmonium blows up in water, which makes it hard to burn allomantically to find out what it would do. But what if it was coated? The mechanism of metal burning isn't well understood, but could an Enteric coating, or even a metal shell, protect a bead of harmonium for long enough for it to be allomantically used? What would the effect be?

As part of the risk analysis, does anyone know what the energy density of harmonium is in a harmonium-water explosion? I think we know about enough to calculate rough numbers, but I don't have the time right now or book access to do any of it.

Actually, I think we sort of have some evidence of what burning Harmonium does from the very first time it is demonstrated.

It has never been explicitly explained, however, mechanical allomancy works essentially the same as human allomancy. Ergo, Harmonium broadcasts innate power from one body (object) to another. 

If a mistborn could burn Harmonium without dying instantly (like...if you made a stone golem into a mistborn) my assumption is that any person or animal it touched would become temporary mistborn, sort of like how (minor stormlight archive spoiler)

Spoiler

radiant squires work.

This is 100% speculation, I have never heard anyone suggest such a concept before, it just makes sense in my head mechanically.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Lewis Nethur

[Duxredux he/him]

We've theorized about this about a year ago here.

Ideas included:

• Coating it in a non-allomantic metal
• Sticking a tube down the throat and trying to just... slide the Harmonium into the stomach and hoping you could burn it before it hits anything that would make it react.
• What seemed to be the simplest and safest testable method is to put the Harmonium in a dietary supplement oil-filled gelatin capsule. The thickness of the gelatin determines how long it takes to get released into the digestives system, so a thick enough coating at it may be able to pass all the way through the digestive tract without breaking down. Have a Misting eat a capsule with a non-reactive metal and see if they can burn it before it passes all the way through the system - if they can, you're good to go, if they can't, don't risk it. It should be straightforward if messy to confirm if/when a gelatin capsule avoids full dissolution.

The last option should work for the enteric coating you suggested @Light In the Darkness, make the coating thick enough that it is guaranteed to pass all the way through the system, test with a non-lethal metal, and go from there. The real question is how many layers of isolation from the stomach is acceptable for the Spiritweb to be able to utilize the metal.

Burning Harmonium is almost certainly a huge RAFO.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

21 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

We've theorized about this about a year ago here.

Ideas included:

• Coating it in a non-allomantic metal
• Sticking a tube down the throat and trying to just... slide the Harmonium into the stomach and hoping you could burn it before it hits anything that would make it react.
• What seemed to be the simplest and safest testable method is to put the Harmonium in a dietary supplement oil-filled gelatin capsule. The thickness of the gelatin determines how long it takes to get released into the digestives system, so a thick enough coating at it may be able to pass all the way through the digestive tract without breaking down. Have a Misting eat a capsule with a non-reactive metal and see if they can burn it before it passes all the way through the system - if they can, you're good to go, if they can't, don't risk it. It should be straightforward if messy to confirm if/when a gelatin capsule avoids full dissolution.

The last option should work for the enteric coating you suggested @Light In the Darkness, make the coating thick enough that it is guaranteed to pass all the way through the system, test with a non-lethal metal, and go from there. The real question is how many layers of isolation from the stomach is acceptable for the Spiritweb to be able to utilize the metal.

Burning Harmonium is almost certainly a huge RAFO.

I would add to that list:

An Inquisitor with F-cadmium could store all of the moisture in their body while tapping just enough F-gold to remain alert an oriented could probably burn Harmonium just fine. It would just hurt like torture. 

[Duxredux he/him]

27 minutes ago, Lewis Nethur said:

I would add to that list:

An Inquisitor with F-cadmium could store all of the moisture in their body while tapping just enough F-gold to remain alert an oriented could probably burn Harmonium just fine. It would just hurt like torture. 

Well... I did some more poking around and it somewhat depends on how similar Harmonium is to cesium. Cesium is one of the alkaline metals and like all alkalines reacts quite readily to acids - such as the hydrocholric acid in human stomachs. I got this from ChatGPT so take it with a grain of salt, but the energy released from dropping 1 gram of cesium reacting with water will produce around 3-4 kilojoules of energy. This is a fair bit more than the 1.2 kj if you were to drop it into hydrochloric acid, but it's still a significantly exothermic reaction.

Again, it depends on how close the reaction is to cesium, but alkali metals explode in water not just because of the bonds broken and formed, but because the byproduct is hydrogen gas right next a high heat source. Again, accoring to ChatGPT, if you had a stoichiometrically balanced proportion of cesium and water, the volume of products would increase by 124,334% as it gets converted to cesium hydroxide and hydrogen gas. Now this is for water reactions, cesium reacting to hydrochloric acid will still produce hydrogen case but at a greatly reduced ratio, actually reducing volume by around 50%. Neither of those sounds particularly pleasant. 

That's for cesium where Harmonium has been described as a "super cesium". Beyond this it's just extrapolation. I didn't say everything on that list was a good idea, since most have a very poor testing options.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Duxredux
corrected error

[Light In the Darkness]

6 hours ago, Duxredux said:

We've theorized about this about a year ago here.

Thanks for the reference! I’ll read that thread. The gelatin capsule is a good idea, but I wonder if allomancers can burn metals not in the stomach - we know they eventually leave and can be poisonous.

 

Also, I was thinking about this a bit more, and could an alloy of harmonium be more stable? God metals are supposedly a means to entirely new sets of 16 allomantic metals, in addition to the power of the metal alone. Would that be an easier way to gain more information on the effects of raw harmonium?

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Light In the Darkness said:

Thanks for the reference! I’ll read that thread. The gelatin capsule is a good idea, but I wonder if allomancers can burn metals not in the stomach - we know they eventually leave and can be poisonous.

Metals don't have to be in the stomach to be burnable, just be in the body.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/425-youtube-livestream-10/#e13947

Matthew Grady

Does a metal need to be swallowed to be burned? Or can it be injected or snorted?

Brandon Sanderson

It could be either of those two things. Yes. Basically, metal into the body in any way is going to work, generally. There's nothing magical about the stomach, even though it works the best when we talk about it. It's just more intermixing the nature of the metal with your soul in the cosmere, your Spiritual entity, is what gives them that ability.

 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

52 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Metals don't have to be in the stomach to be burnable, just be in the body.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/425-youtube-livestream-10/#e13947

Matthew Grady

Does a metal need to be swallowed to be burned? Or can it be injected or snorted?

Brandon Sanderson

It could be either of those two things. Yes. Basically, metal into the body in any way is going to work, generally. There's nothing magical about the stomach, even though it works the best when we talk about it. It's just more intermixing the nature of the metal with your soul in the cosmere, your Spiritual entity, is what gives them that ability.

 

This is actually a really good point. A person who just completed the cinnamon challenge might be able to burn Harmonium too.

Edit: on second thought, coating one's mouth with wax (the bee byproduct, not the man!!!) Might also allow one to hold a piece of harmonium in their mouth to test with. 

Edited November 20, 2024 by Lewis Nethur

[Light In the Darkness]

9 hours ago, Lewis Nethur said:

Edit: on second thought, coating one's mouth with wax (the bee byproduct, not the man!!!) Might also allow one to hold a piece of harmonium in their mouth to test with.

Not sure this would be a good idea; wax isn't very durable, and humans by nature move things around when they're sitting in our moths. This could end very badly far too easily.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

38 minutes ago, Light In the Darkness said:

Not sure this would be a good idea; wax isn't very durable, and humans by nature move things around when they're sitting in our moths. This could end very badly far too easily.

Sorry, that was tongue-in-cheek on purpose. The truth is that humans can never safely burn Harmonium and live, that's the whole point of the reaction with water bit. They might be able to gamble and survive with an uncertain mortality and collateral damage rate if they're sociopathic is all.

If folks wanna know for certain what the metal does without mastering magical mechanics the hard way, or paying a southerner to teach them (and risk being lied to), they're going to have to create a hemalurgic monster that can survive the operation, period. Either some kind of mistborn waterless golem, or an Inquisitor-like creature who can store all the water in their body while being sustained against cell-death artificially.

Every other possible option risks, and will eventually lead, to an explosion of very-nearly atomic scale. Was just making a joke.

[Isilel]

On 11/20/2024 at 4:02 PM, Duxredux said:

Cesium is one of the alkaline metals and like all alkalines reacts quite readily to acids - such as the hydrocholric acid in human stomachs.

 

But Wax specifically mentioned that harmonium is non-reactive with acids, so it is unlike Cesium in this respect. Therefore, it should be perfectly fine if a capsule dissolved in the stomach to allow burning. It would still be a good idea to use a Bloodmaker with significant health stores for the experiment, just in case. Or a kandra.

Actually, a kandra would be a perfect experimental subject, since they can hold harmonium within their body without exposing it to liquid. And IIRC there is a WoB that they could burn lerasium, so harmonium shouldn't be a problem either.

Another thought - what is inside the body is to some degree a matter of perception, right? So, if a human could train themselves to think of inside of their navel as inside their body, could they burn harmonium there? If it has a valuable effect, I could see people doing it or even surgically creating special "pockets" for the purpose.

I am also intensely curious about the feruchemical power of harmonium, which should be much less dangerous to test for, but apparently still wasn't figured out by the Northerners in TLM.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Isilel

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

But Wax specifically mentioned that harmonium is non-reactive with acids, so it is unlike Cesium in this respect. Therefore, it should be perfectly fine if a capsule dissolved in the stomach to allow burning. It would still be a good idea to use a Bloodmaker with significant health stores for the experiment, just in case. Or a kandra.

I think there is water mixed with your stomach acid (you drink it, it mixes, it stays), it would react with Harmonium anyway.

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Another thought - what is inside the body is to some degree a matter of perception, right? So, if a human could train themselves to think of inside of their navel as inside their body, could they burn harmonium there? If it has a valuable effect, I could see people doing it or even surgically creating special "pockets" for the purpose.

I believe it's about proximity to the soul and for that it needs to go inside of your body.

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Matthew Grady

Does a metal need to be swallowed to be burned? Or can it be injected or snorted?

Brandon Sanderson

It could be either of those two things. Yes. Basically, metal into the body in any way is going to work, generally. There's nothing magical about the stomach, even though it works the best when we talk about it. It's just more intermixing the nature of the metal with your soul in the cosmere, your Spiritual entity, is what gives them that ability.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

 

Using Kandra for that is a great idea. But humans might have a shot too - just stop intaking any fluids and wait until your mouth is extremely dry. It might be dry enough so you can hold it inside and burn it without interacting with any water. F-duralumin would probably help a lot - just store as much water as you can, later tap it so you won't suffer from dehydration. It's still a very risky idea, but probably the simplest that could work.

You could also try coating Harmonium in another burnable metal, best would be duralumin. You have to burn through the outer layer first before burning Harmonium, but I think once you make a hole in the coating, you should be able to start burning parts of the inner metal. That's why duralumin would be the best option because the moment it happens, you would burn everything at once, preventing Harmonium from interacting with water at all. 

Spoiler

Lurcher

Can you burn a metal wrapped in another metal, if both are Allomantic? Like, the inner metal, could you just burn that before?

Brandon Sanderson

No, you're gonna have to work your way through the outer one.

Lurcher

And what if it was a non-Allomantic metal? The same?

Brandon Sanderson

It's gonna depend on how thick it is, and stuff. But I would say, if you wrap it in a non-Allomantic metal, that's not good for getting to the metal. It's viable, but it just depends on how thick it is, and things like that. Like, sometimes things have been plated to keep the access to the metal off, but usually you would want to do that in aluminum, to make sure.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 22, 2017)

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

...

You could also try coating Harmonium in another burnable metal, best would be duralumin. You have to burn through the outer layer first before burning Harmonium, but I think once you make a hole in the coating, you should be able to start burning parts of the inner metal. That's why duralumin would be the best option because the moment it happens, you would burn everything at once, preventing Harmonium from interacting with water at all. 

After thinking about it a little more, this might actually work great. Like, if the Harmonium began burning the exact moment that the outer layer was burned off, you could potentially simulate an Investiture equivalent of a modified Leidenfrost effect. The atoms should be burned off allomantically faster than they can achieve physical contact at their interface with their environment as long as the transition from burning the insulating layer to burning Harmonium is seamless. At least by my figuring; I haven't been in a chemistry lab for a very long time though.

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

You could also try coating Harmonium in another burnable metal, best would be duralumin. You have to burn through the outer layer first before burning Harmonium, but I think once you make a hole in the coating, you should be able to start burning parts of the inner metal. That's why duralumin would be the best option because the moment it happens, you would burn everything at once, preventing Harmonium from interacting with water at all. 

14 minutes ago, Lewis Nethur said:

After thinking about it a little more, this might actually work great. Like, if the Harmonium began burning the exact moment that the outer layer was burned off, you could potentially simulate an Investiture equivalent of a modified Leidenfrost effect. The atoms should be burned off allomantically faster than they can achieve physical contact at their interface with their environment as long as the transition from burning the insulating layer to burning Harmonium is seamless. At least by my figuring; I haven't been in a chemistry lab for a very long time though.

My two cents on the matter is that this might not be the best idea. You’re getting someone who is potentially a mistborn (perhaps a duralumin gnat can burn harmonium, but there’s no way to test it before doing this) to burn an unknown metal at extremely high power. Think about the consequences of duralumin steelpushing without pewter. Or the consequences of tin or iron. Without knowing what harmonium does, you could be causing a massive explosion even if you do burn the metal correctly. 

[Light In the Darkness]

On 11/22/2024 at 5:47 AM, alder24 said:

You could also try coating Harmonium in another burnable metal, best would be duralumin. You have to burn through the outer layer first before burning Harmonium, but I think once you make a hole in the coating, you should be able to start burning parts of the inner metal. That's why duralumin would be the best option because the moment it happens, you would burn everything at once, preventing Harmonium from interacting with water at all. 

So, I was thinking about this, and I think it would have the opposite effect of what we want. The Harmonium would be unavailable as a store until the duraluminum is burned all the way through, which it would all burn up in an instant - that's how duraluminum works - but the harmonium wouldn't be exposed until after that, so it wouldn't be burned by the duraluminum flash, I think. So it would be exposed for a hot second and the results might not be great, and I think you would probably end up with no duraluminum assistance. So it depends on the speed of the burn-flash and such things, but the results are likely not as clean as we've been wishing here. I think another coating, one that's thinner in terms of allomantic reserve isolation and that doesn't completely prevent burning the covered metal, would be wiser and safer.

 

On 11/20/2024 at 5:47 AM, alder24 said:

We have no idea. We only know it's like super-cesium.

I thought we have rough potential measurements; we know a rough ingot size for the lab explosion, I think, which was much stronger than the water one, and we know the explosion that Wayne causes with the water-reaction is larger than any other human-made one, and I think the rough size of those harmonium pieces. Between those sizes and explosions I think we have enough to make some energy equivalence estimations; I just don't have the equations or the books in front of me. Anyone?