Black Holes are naturally forming perpendicularities

[AnthonyC4]

So I was thinking about it, and I thought to myself "Perpendicularities only seem to come about whenever massive amounts of investiture are handled, i.e. like a Shard". And I realized that if matter, energy, and investiture are the same substance, then significant amounts of matter or energy should also be able to create perpendicularities as well. And that to me sounded like a black hole.

If black holes ARE perpendicularities, then that means that the space age has a way of easily transferring between the physical and cognitive realms without relying on a Shardworld. They can be treated as wormholes, which definitely sounds like an intentional design feature. After all, all currently known perpendicularities are on the surfaces of planets, so having some just being out and about in the vastness of space, while also not being as unreliable as temporary perpendicularities, would give a lot of degrees of freedom to traversal in the space age.

Additionally, as a result of the above, I don't really think black holes exist in the cosmere, in the traditional sense. I think perpendicularities form long before escape velocity tends to the speed of light, at which point the mass of the perpendicularity is spread out in multiple realms, reducing the overall gravitational effect in any particular realm.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

1 hour ago, AnthonyC4 said:

So I was thinking about it, and I thought to myself "Perpendicularities only seem to come about whenever massive amounts of investiture are handled, i.e. like a Shard". And I realized that if matter, energy, and investiture are the same substance, then significant amounts of matter or energy should also be able to create perpendicularities as well. And that to me sounded like a black hole.

If black holes ARE perpendicularities, then that means that the space age has a way of easily transferring between the physical and cognitive realms without relying on a Shardworld. They can be treated as wormholes, which definitely sounds like an intentional design feature. After all, all currently known perpendicularities are on the surfaces of planets, so having some just being out and about in the vastness of space, while also not being as unreliable as temporary perpendicularities, would give a lot of degrees of freedom to traversal in the space age.

Additionally, as a result of the above, I don't really think black holes exist in the cosmere, in the traditional sense. I think perpendicularities form long before escape velocity tends to the speed of light, at which point the mass of the perpendicularity is spread out in multiple realms, reducing the overall gravitational effect in any particular realm.

Honestly, and please don't let me change your opinion cause this sounds like a fun mechanic, from a realmatic metaphysics perspective I would be more inclined to think of and treat blackholes as discontinuities between the three realms, almost like the perfect opposite of a perpendicularity. Like...a place where the 3 realms do not intersect at all.

In the PR, that would look like getting crushed by gravity, slowed down in space-time so that cognition (CR presence) is meaningless, and having a future that is simultaneously infinite and perfectly disconnected from everything everywhere.

Approaching it purely in the CR might render one non-sapient or unable to process thought or ever leave, and "touching" it in the SR might consume one's past, present, and future out of existence.

(Your take is definitely more fun than mine though) 

[scientificmotif]

1 hour ago, Lewis Nethur said:

Honestly, and please don't let me change your opinion cause this sounds like a fun mechanic, from a realmatic metaphysics perspective I would be more inclined to think of and treat blackholes as discontinuities between the three realms, almost like the perfect opposite of a perpendicularity. Like...a place where the 3 realms do not intersect at all.

In the PR, that would look like getting crushed by gravity, slowed down in space-time so that cognition (CR presence) is meaningless, and having a future that is simultaneously infinite and perfectly disconnected from everything everywhere.

Approaching it purely in the CR might render one non-sapient or unable to process thought or ever leave, and "touching" it in the SR might consume one's past, present, and future out of existence.

(Your take is definitely more fun than mine though) 

If the 3 realms don't intersect at all at places where black holes exist, then they shouldn't have any effects on other realms at all, besides not being connected to the PR, so approaching where a black hole *would* be in the SR or CR shouldn't do much, unless you need to be connected to the PR.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, AnthonyC4 said:

So I was thinking about it, and I thought to myself "Perpendicularities only seem to come about whenever massive amounts of investiture are handled, i.e. like a Shard". And I realized that if matter, energy, and investiture are the same substance, then significant amounts of matter or energy should also be able to create perpendicularities as well. And that to me sounded like a black hole.

If black holes ARE perpendicularities, then that means that the space age has a way of easily transferring between the physical and cognitive realms without relying on a Shardworld. They can be treated as wormholes, which definitely sounds like an intentional design feature. After all, all currently known perpendicularities are on the surfaces of planets, so having some just being out and about in the vastness of space, while also not being as unreliable as temporary perpendicularities, would give a lot of degrees of freedom to traversal in the space age.

Additionally, as a result of the above, I don't really think black holes exist in the cosmere, in the traditional sense. I think perpendicularities form long before escape velocity tends to the speed of light, at which point the mass of the perpendicularity is spread out in multiple realms, reducing the overall gravitational effect in any particular realm.

Maybe they have a perpendicularity in their singularity? Sounds possible. But black holes still exist in Cosmere and they still behave like regular black holes. If there is a perpendicularity formed in a singularity, you can't reach it, you can't use it. Black holes would not only kill you and rip you to atoms, but also prevent you from ever using a perpendicularity in the very center of it because black holes also bend spacetime in the Cognitive Realm - you just can't get out of a black hole once you cross the event horizon.

Black holes also aren't that common. The closest black hole to Earth is around 1,600 light years away, Cosmere is a small star cluster made out of around 100 stars, which is comparable to an open cluster which spans max 30 light years in diameter. It's very unlikely that you would have so many black holes in Cosmere that they could be used as a reasonable way to move between star systems. 

And that might also be a casual breaking of causality. From the outside frame of reference a person falling into a black hole takes an infinite amount of time to reach singularity. So if you went into a black hole, somehow survived and use the perpendicularity in its singularity and then somehow come out on Roshar for example, others would be able to theoretically witness two versions of you - the one that's still falling towards the singularity and will never reach it and the one that's just came out of that singularity. They would see an effect without a cause - sounds like a causality violation to me. But on the other hand every FTL, Shadesmar included, violates causality in the same way so...

Spoiler

Stuart Eliason

If a planet was orbiting a black hole, would time be distorted in the Cognitive Realm in that area the same way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Good question. And in fact, if you could get enough Investiture, it will do the same thing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

the other Nathan

If a large group of Windrunners lashed enough mass towards a single point, could they create a black hole?

Brandon Sanderson

Offhand, I think that would be theoretically possible, though in practicality impossible. We'd need [Peter Ahlstrom] to do some math.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there a center to the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

There isn't a center in the cosmere... I keep calling it a dwarf galaxy but I think they decided it's a cluster, instead of a dwarf galaxy.

Overlord Jebus

Even a dwarf galaxy is still really big.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, still too big. So we had to call it a cluster. Because we only wanted like what, we came up with 50 or 100 stars? So it's a cluster. Or a really dwarf galaxy.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

You talked about Mistborn being the space traveler ones. I was wondering if you were going to utilize some of the speed bending into that, into the travel with it?

Brandon Sanderson

You will see what I do when I do that... The biggest problem is, for you physics majors, how we make sure that we're not breaking causality... So breaking causality is kinda my big no-no. For instance, I have right now that moving between Oathgates goes at the speed of light. But technically we still break causality, right, with Shadesmar stuff... But the issue--the way we can do it in Shadesmar is because it breaks causality, but there is so muc-- Like if you were able to go into Shadesmar, move at the speed of light, come out like, you could break causality but it's, in practice, impossible, because the difference is so slight.

We also break causality with the Spiritual Realm, but I can control that.

Questioner

Also you can just kind of like, mulligan that off.

Brandon Sanderson

...If we were having instant speed, communication and things like that... yeah if we have an ansible, that's how we're not breaking causality. How we're not doing the train thought experiment which breaks my brain...

So that's the big thing I have to worry about once we get to the Mistborn era, the space travel and stuff. Like, right now I don't break causality, or at least if I do, it is indiscernible to human ability to realize it. Once we get to actual space travel, and actual FTL, then I want to have rules in place, even if it is just like the rule for red shifts. On speed bubbles, where I say, "Yeah it just doesn't happen." Letting you know. But it would be no fun. Even if it's just that. But I at least want to have that in hand.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

[DrPhysics he/him]

On 11/19/2024 at 11:13 AM, AnthonyC4 said:

"Perpendicularities only seem to come about whenever massive amounts of investiture are handled, i.e. like a Shard". And I realized that if matter, energy, and investiture are the same substance, then significant amounts of matter or energy should also be able to create perpendicularities as well. And that to me sounded like a black hole.

Having investiture, matter, and energy all be different forms of the same thing tells us that you could create a black hole out of investiture (because it would bend spacetime around it just like you could make a black hole out of light if you got enough of it together), but that doesn't mean that a black hole will be a perpendicularity. 
 

• Black holes would bend the physical realm, but that doesn't mean the physical realm will get closer to one of the other realms. 
• Perpendicularities don't act like black holes. We don't see time dilation or increased gravitational forces around them at a noticeable level, so that means connecting the realms with investiture doesn't bend things like (or doesn't require the same physics as) a black hole.
• Black holes aren't traversable - you can't go into one and come out somewhere else. There are other things that bend spacetime (like the Ellis Wormhole) in a way that you can use it to cross from one point to another, but those aren't black holes.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

On 11/19/2024 at 4:30 PM, scientificmotif said:

If the 3 realms don't intersect at all at places where black holes exist, then they shouldn't have any effects on other realms at all, besides not being connected to the PR, so approaching where a black hole *would* be in the SR or CR shouldn't do much, unless you need to be connected to the PR.

Let me explain:

When I say they don't intersect at all, I mean that, the effect on the principles of reality for being close to a blackhole in one realm, render the normal human elements of the other realms completely meaningless.

Being sucked into a blackhole in the physical realm is equivalent to being unable to think, and having an infinite and also meaningless future. IE: one ONLY exists in the physical realm.

Being sucked into a blackhole in the cognitive realm is equivalent to having no detectable physical presence and being completely divorced from time, space, or Connection of any kind.

Touching a blackhole in the spiritual realm is like having every record of one's existence imploded out of reality as if one never existed, never could exist, and is not real in any conceivable sense of the word. No thought. No body. No nothing. Just information that is infinitely trapped while simultaneously never having been real to begin with. A singularity. A defiance of every physical law of reality at the most basic level.

At least...that's how I read it.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

This whole thread makes me head hurt in that fun Cosmere sort of way

Ok, that's all, carry on.

Edited November 22, 2024 by JohnnyKaizen