Thoughts and theories - Shards, Wit's Stories, Nohadon, Honor, etc.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

I've been doing a lot of re-reading in tandem with these new chapter releases, and I have a few thoughts I need to get down into words. Let me know what you think about each of these points or if you have better ideas that would fix the holes in these theories:

• Story of Roshar's Moons - one moon swaps places with a mortal, that mortal then gets pregnant with a baby from one of the other moons
  • I've seen speculation that perhaps Cultivation swapped with someone temporarily who then got pregnant from Honor, and this could have caused a division between the vessel and the shard because of a potentially broken oath. I could see this being the case, and perhaps this opened the window for Odium to 'kill' Honor
    • There's also room for the question of what happened to the kid - maybe an ancestor of Kaladin's family and that's why Lirin is so weirdly obsessed with Honor (he seriously acts like an honorspren, it's wild)? I know Brandon has said there's no special background or lineage for Kaladin though so unfortunately this is probably not the case
• The new epigraphs from the in-world Way of Kings include references to abdication. Could the Way of Kings story actually parallel Tanavast's journey? Is it possible (due to his conflict with both his shard's Intent and potentially with Cultivation upon her return) that Tanavast chose to abdicate his position as a Shard and selected someone else to take his place?
  • My latest thought is that he may have given the shard to Nohadon before Odium's attack and that he stepped down to be a normal person for a while
  • We know that Honor acted differently in his last days and was obsessed with the oaths more than usual - could this be due to Nohadon's different interpretation of the Shard's intent or perhaps because he was overpowered by the shard?
  • Did Tanavast then write the Way of Kings under Nohadon's name while he was still alive on the earth? Telling his own story but from the perspective of an earthly monarch instead of a god to make it more relatable to mortals?

Quote

Wetlander

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

Hoser

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

Hoser

So he could have survived the Splintering...

Brandon Sanderson

He could have survived the Splintering.

Hoser

...as a mortal...

Brandon Sanderson

Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...

Hoser

...passed away in his sleep...

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

• Brandon answers explicitly that Tanavast is dead on more than one occasion. But he also says that the Stormfather is Honor's Cognitive Shadow in a strange way.... And when asked if Nohadon is dead, Brandon just RAFO's immediately.
  • I propose that Nohadon was the one holding the shard when it was splintered (or perhaps Tanavast passed it to him at some point in the process since splintering is a 'slow burn' death
  • Ultimately, the Cognitive Shadow that is attached to the Stormfather is Nohadon, and not Tanavast
    • This also explains the strange Nohadon vision that Dalinar had - it was Nohadon taking a little more direct action when it was needed to help nudge Dalinar in the right direction
• To make this even messier and more interesting: What if Nohadon was bonded to the Stormfather as a bondsmith (Brandon has repeatedly RAFO'd whether Nohadon was a bondsmith). And what if he and SF saw that Honor was struggling (maybe due to a conflict with his shard's intent?), so they devised a plan:
  • Somehow trick Tanavast into giving up the power so Nohadon could take over, but this turned out badly and that is what allowed Odium to splinter Honor? Could this be what the Stormfather means when he talks about "our shame"??

Thoughts? Feel free to tear this apart, I know it's a bit out there, but I feel like there could be something to it, even if it is a bit of a mess of semi-contradicting possibilites haha but I could see some combination of these coming together to form the proper storyline perhaps.

[Slayd_07]

Man, I wasn't on board at first, but this whole Tanavast/Nohadan swap theory is growing on me. There's a really nice sense of narrative logic to it, it's hard to explain - but it lines up in a cool way. Maybe Nohadan really just wasn't cut out to hold Honor, and discovering that makes Dalinar doubt that he could take up Honor without loosing himself and causing another calamity in the vein of the Recreance?

But hey, from the preview chapters, we know that Honor actually wasn't splintered. Or at least, the bulk of his power is still intact and un-splintered. That's weird. We've seen time and time again that Shards will always splinter other, adversarial Shards if they get the chance - it'd just be stupid to leave that much power available to potentially oppose them again. Something weird has to have happened - why not an emergency pickup by Nohadan, in the vein of Kelsier in SH?

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

24 minutes ago, Slayd_07 said:

Man, I wasn't on board at first, but this whole Tanavast/Nohadan swap theory is growing on me. There's a really nice sense of narrative logic to it, it's hard to explain - but it lines up in a cool way. Maybe Nohadan really just wasn't cut out to hold Honor, and discovering that makes Dalinar doubt that he could take up Honor without loosing himself and causing another calamity in the vein of the Recreance?

But hey, from the preview chapters, we know that Honor actually wasn't splintered. Or at least, the bulk of his power is still intact and un-splintered. That's weird. We've seen time and time again that Shards will always splinter other, adversarial Shards if they get the chance - it'd just be stupid to leave that much power available to potentially oppose them again. Something weird has to have happened - why not an emergency pickup by Nohadan, in the vein of Kelsier in SH?

Great points! I wonder if Honor (whether it was T-Honor or N-Honor) set that power aside in the spiritual realm with specific requirements that have to be met in order for someone to take it? Sort of a Sorcerer's Stone situation - only someone who wants it for the right reasons or (from the preview chapters) doesn't want it at all can actually take it up? Sounds like something Kaladin might do..... "Storms, I guess if I have to take it to save other people then I will" THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED and BOOM Kaladin becomes Honor?

Some relevant quotes from chapters 21/22 with my own bolding/emphasis added:

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“Yes and no,” Wit said. “This is complicated. A Shard—a god—suffuses everything. Every axon on the world is, in some way, Connected to it. But the Spiritual Realm must hold a core of what Honor used to be. A well of energy, you might say. If you were to Connect to it in the right way, you would ascend to Honor’s position. Then all the ambient power of the world would be part of you. You’d need to find a way to persuade the power to accept you.”

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Why, Dalinar? Why must you seek this?

“Because I’m overwhelmed, Stormfather,” Dalinar said, letting his exhaustion show. “Because I have to somehow save everyone, but I’m just one man, confused and outmatched. Because the only time I’ve ever felt like I had any hint of control was when I stood up before Odium and touched the Spiritual Realm.”

Unity, the Stormfather said.

“Yes.”

This is not for you to seek or decide. The power cannot go to one who wants it, Dalinar.

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You have no idea what you’re talking about.

“I only know what you’ve told me,” Dalinar said, feeling his anger mount. “I know that I’ve been stymied and cut off every time I’ve tried to make progress! I’ve had to fight you almost as much as I fight our enemy!”

Honor’s plan—

“Honor abandoned us!” Dalinar shouted. “We don’t even know why or how! All you’ll say is that he died, he faded away, he left visions and some plan for us to force Odium into a contest of champions. Vague, without real instructions.”

It’s working though.

“Is it?” Dalinar said, gesturing toward the continent far below. “You’ve seen what the enemy is doing.”

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What you want… is dangerous.

“It’s not what I want, Stormfather,” Dalinar said. “But it might be the only way.”

The Stormfather rumbled softly, and he glanced down, away from Dalinar. What of the Heralds? Perhaps the Heralds can help.

“I sent Szeth and Kaladin to try to retrieve one,” Dalinar said. “But what do you think? Can they solve this?”

Maybe. But… they are not reliable anymore, are they? Time has broken them… I’ve broken them. He looked back at Dalinar. I cannot say if the power would accept someone like you as a host, after what happened with Tanavast.

“And what happened with Tanavast?” Dalinar said.

It’s… worse than I told you, Dalinar.

“So you lied.”

Yes. Does that surprise you? Anger you?

Dalinar took a deep breath, and found that he was relieved to finally get an admission.

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The Stormfather at last met his eyes again. I don’t know what would happen if you became Honor before the contest. I do not like even thinking about it. However, you might find answers that will… change your perspective. In the Spiritual Realm, as Cultivation said. You can take that step, and see the past, but do not seek the power of Honor.

Be warned. I will not be able to control what happens to you, or where you are taken. It is a process that is confusing to any who is not themself a Shard of Adonalsium. Even your Wit, for all his boasting and self-importance, can barely fathom the Spiritual Realm. Regardless, if you look into the Spiritual Realm… you will see. Perhaps you will see.

“See what, exactly?”

Our shame.

 

Edited November 1, 2024 by CognitiveShadow
Emphasis added

[Slayd_07]

16 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Great points! I wonder if Honor (whether it was T-Honor or N-Honor) set that power aside in the spiritual realm with specific requirements that have to be met in order for someone to take it? Sort of a Sorcerer's Stone situation - only someone who wants it for the right reasons or (from the preview chapters) doesn't want it at all can actually take it up? Sounds like something Kaladin might do..... "Storms, I guess if I have to take it to save other people then I will" THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED and BOOM Kaladin becomes Honor?

Some relevant quotes from chapters 21/22 with my own bolding/emphasis added:

 

I can certainly see how Tanavast, a Vessel, stepping down and passing the Shard to someone who proved woefully unable to wield it would shame the Stormfather in such a major way. Or even better - you're right that the Stormfather has Nohadan's cognative shadow instead of Tanavast's, and it's specifically Nohadan's shame that he failed to wield Honor so disastrously.  

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 minute ago, Slayd_07 said:

it's specifically Nohadan's shame that he failed to wield Honor so disastrously.  

I really like that way of looking at it, would make a lot of sense! I'm getting progressively more excited about this idea so I hope someone comes along and pokes some holes in it or else I'll be convinced this is how things are going to go lol

[+Crossen]

MAJOR WHEEL OF TIME SPOILERS

 

Spoiler

I have posted about this theory in the other thread but I thought of another reason why I think it may fit. When Brandon was beginning to write the final version of the Way of Kings he had the knowledge of what the ending was for the Wheel of Time. This theory isn't exactly the same as the ending of the Wheel of Time, but it rhymes.

At the end of the Wheel of Time...

Rand essentially fakes his own death by body swapping and rides off into the sunset without most people being aware that he never actually died. This theory almost the opposite, but I could see how the ending of the Wheel of Time could plant the seed in Brandon's mind on including this twist into Stormlight.

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

From today's chapters - epigraph about the strength of stepping down and walking away from a conflict... applicable?

Quote

I do not have answers, and there will always be some who denounce me for this decision I made. But let me teach a truth here that is often misunderstood: sometimes, it is not weakness, but strength, to stand up and walk away.

 

[Slayd_07]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

From today's chapters - epigraph about the strength of stepping down and walking away from a conflict... applicable?

 

Yeah this sure sounds applicable to me. Lines up pretty perfectly - there sure are many who would denounce Tanavast for stepping away. The second line is really interesting from a Shardic perspective, too. I can see how though it might seem like weakness to abdicate from a Shard, say you can't hold it anymore - that takes a strength we haven't seen from any other Vessel. No one else has even come close to peacefully leaving their Shard to another. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

Dropping in another comment here to add the thought that perhaps the Nohadon and Tanavast swap happened right at the time when Honor turns against the Singers. It would certainly make sense from a personality perspective and would explain why Nohadon/SF feel extra guilty about the whole thing. IF they conspired to take Honor's shard, it would make sense for it to have happened right when everyone says Honor started acting weird.

Of course, this also puts a bit of a wrench into the whole "they saw Honor slipping and decided to step in and take over for the good of Roshar" aspect of the theory.

I'm just using this thread to add more WoB's that I feel give strength to the theory

Quote

delvin

Is it possible that Honor's Shard is named Honor, because this is how the man who hold The Shard inerpreted it but not it's real name? In that case could The Shard change the name to something else that would better fit with personality of the new holder? As an example, could Honor become Unity if Dalinar were the holder?

Brandon Sanderson

The name Honor is bigger than Tanavast, though it's not impossible for shards to be interpreted differently by those who hold them, and perhaps other names be applied.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 1, 2020)

 

[Slayd_07]

19 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Dropping in another comment here to add the thought that perhaps the Nohadon and Tanavast swap happened right at the time when Honor turns against the Singers. It would certainly make sense from a personality perspective and would explain why Nohadon/SF feel extra guilty about the whole thing.

This seems a bit less plausible to me, this is incredibly early in the timeline. As far as I remember, people didn't notice Honor starting to act weird until close to the Recreance, but the Odium/Honor worship swap happened all the way before the Desolations were even a thing. In fact, I bet the Honor/Odium swap happened before Nohadan was even alive - he was a king in one of the Silver Kingdoms, right? And those weren't established until humans invaded the rest of Roshar which happened after they started worshipping Honor. 

Another relevant piece of info I noticed is Hoid's conversation with Dalinar earlier in the book - the one where he mentions Vin's partial ascension. (I couldn't seem to find the quote for this, if somebody else dropped it in below this I would appreciate it.) Hoid says that it's incredibly difficult to give up the power of a Shard, and he's never heard of it being done before - except for in Vin's case. I don't think this really shoots holes in this theory, but it is something to consider. It means Hoid is unaware of the swap having happened, which is certainly interesting. For something that significant to have slipped under Hoid's radar means that the swap must have been incredibly secretive.  

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

31 minutes ago, Slayd_07 said:

This seems a bit less plausible to me, this is incredibly early in the timeline. As far as I remember, people didn't notice Honor starting to act weird until close to the Recreance, but the Odium/Honor worship swap happened all the way before the Desolations were even a thing. In fact, I bet the Honor/Odium swap happened before Nohadan was even alive - he was a king in one of the Silver Kingdoms, right? And those weren't established until humans invaded the rest of Roshar which happened after they started worshipping Honor. 

Good points! I've just been made aware of the timing issues... I definitely need to take a closer look at the overall timeline of Roshar and what we know for certain of Nohadon's timeline and see what makes the most sense. Timeline issues aside, any point where Honor acts differently could be a sign of a swap. I'll keep digging lol

33 minutes ago, Slayd_07 said:

Another relevant piece of info I noticed is Hoid's conversation with Dalinar earlier in the book - the one where he mentions Vin's partial ascension. (I couldn't seem to find the quote for this, if somebody else dropped it in below this I would appreciate it.) Hoid says that it's incredibly difficult to give up the power of a Shard, and he's never heard of it being done before - except for in Vin's case. I don't think this really shoots holes in this theory, but it is something to consider. It means Hoid is unaware of the swap having happened, which is certainly interesting. For something that significant to have slipped under Hoid's radar means that the swap must have been incredibly secretive.  

Another great point! Only thing I could try to counter here is to say that this entire swap seems to be pretty secretive. Remember in the Prologue when one of the Heralds dies as Gavilar is dying? "They mustn't see. they mustn't know..."

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Suddenly the Stormfather wavered. Lightning pulsed through his shimmering form, filling Gavilar’s room with an electric glow. Blue frosted the rugs, pure light reflecting in the glass balcony doors.

Then the Stormfather cried out. A sound like a peal of thunder, agonized.

“What?” Gavilar said, backing up. “What happened?”

A Herald… a Herald has died… No. I am not ready… The Oathpact… No! They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know…

“Died?” Gavilar said. “Died. You said they were already dead! You said they were in Damnation!”

The Stormfather rippled, then a face emerged in the shimmering. Two eyes, like holes in a storm, clouds spiraling around them and leading into the depths.

Could it be that Nohadon was pretending to be Tanavast and that he has continued to hide the secret as a CS merged with the SF?

Although, for the sake of transparency, I did read a WoB that kind of makes me question the premise of this theory altogether:

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Jofwu

Dalinar had two really weird visions. Was that Connection-y stuff like he did with Kaladin and Tien?

Brandon Sanderson

Which ones are you talking about?

Jofwu

End of Words of Radiance, and in Oathbringer with Nohadon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would be the same sort of weirdness that's happening with Tien. Yes, so you have basically multiple different ways of interpreting this. One is just--what Dalinar wants is directly... he is starting to change the visions specifically, and some might argue he is pulling from the Beyond. Others would argue that what Dalinar wants, feels things in his past, he is actually enforcing upon the vision, and is changing and altering the visions. And that is absolutely going on. It's whether the other thing is happening or not, depends on your personal religious beliefs. But Dalinar is starting, the Bondsmithing is starting to shape the visions.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Looks like the dream with Nohadon might have been more like Dalinar shaping the visions to be what he needed to see instead of being an external force sending the vision to him?

[alder24]

57 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I definitely need to take a closer look at the overall timeline of Roshar and what we know for certain of Nohadon's timeline and see what makes the most sense. Timeline issues aside, any point where Honor acts differently could be a sign of a swap. I'll keep digging lol

Nohadon lived after Urithiru and the Sibling were created (which happened 6000 years ago, 1000 years after humanity arrived on Roshar), but before Radiants were established. We don't know when it happened, but we know they already existed during the 6th Epoch (that's when SayTheWords were written). For comparison the 8th Epoch lasted around 350 years (WoK ch 19 the Starfall vision) and each Epoch is a period between Desolations, which got progressively shorter as Heralds were breaking faster on Braize. So Nohadon lived 4000-3000 years before Honor actually died.

The earliest direct mention of Honor behaving differently was from the gem archive recorded during the False Desolation (OB ch 67 epigraphs), when Honor was dying. His changed behavior was also confirmed by the Stormfather during this period (OB ch 113), so it's consistent with what we know.

42 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Another great point! Only thing I could try to counter here is to say that this entire swap seems to be pretty secretive.

You cannot swap Vessels without anyone noticing, there is a change in Shard's Tone that can be heard by spren like the Sibling or the Stormfather, possibly others would notice it too. Hoid would also eventually realize that Honor was behaving differently from Tanavast and that a new Vessel Ascended. It's impossible to keep it a secret for 4000 years or so without anyone knowing. WaT ch 19:

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It is true, the Stormfather said. Odium is no longer Rayse.

“You can tell?” Dalinar whispered, so Navani could hear too. “So easily?”

Yes. The tone has changed, only noticeable when I looked.

You… are right, the Sibling said. I feel it. So subtle…

I cannot identify the new Vessel, the Stormfather said. 

 

As for the swap of gods that started Desolations, we don't know what happened there at all, but we know Dawnsingers betrayed spren in some way that made them turn to humans. It seems that Dawnsingers started the swap of gods, not Honor. And it happened at least 1000 years before Nohadon lived. RoW ch 109:

Spoiler

“Sorry…” Leshwi said. A joyspren burst around her, beautiful, like a blue storm. “Sorry? Venli, they’ve come back to us! They’ve forgiven us.”

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Nohadon lived after Urithiru and the Sibling were created (which happened 6000 years ago, 1000 years after humanity arrived on Roshar), but before Radiants were established. We don't know when it happened, but we know they already existed during the 6th Epoch (that's when SayTheWords were written). For comparison the 8th Epoch lasted around 350 years (WoK ch 19 the Starfall vision) and each Epoch is a period between Desolations, which got progressively shorter as Heralds were breaking faster on Braize. So Nohadon lived 4000-3000 years before Honor actually died.

The earliest direct mention of Honor behaving differently was from the gem archive recorded during the False Desolation (OB ch 67 epigraphs), when Honor was dying. His changed behavior was also confirmed by the Stormfather during this period (OB ch 113), so it's consistent with what we know.

You cannot swap Vessels without anyone noticing, there is a change in Shard's Tone that can be heard by spren like the Sibling or the Stormfather, possibly others would notice it too. Hoid would also eventually realize that Honor was behaving differently from Tanavast and that a new Vessel Ascended. It's impossible to keep it a secret for 4000 years or so without anyone knowing. WaT ch 19:

 

As for the swap of gods that started Desolations, we don't know what happened there at all, but we know Dawnsingers betrayed spren in some way that made them turn to humans. It seems that Dawnsingers started the swap of gods, not Honor. And it happened at least 1000 years before Nohadon lived. RoW ch 109:

  Hide contents

“Sorry…” Leshwi said. A joyspren burst around her, beautiful, like a blue storm. “Sorry? Venli, they’ve come back to us! They’ve forgiven us.”

Appreciate the concise and clear breakdown! Looks like this theory is quickly dying lol

[Slayd_07]

 

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Nohadon lived after Urithiru and the Sibling were created (which happened 6000 years ago, 1000 years after humanity arrived on Roshar), but before Radiants were established. We don't know when it happened, but we know they already existed during the 6th Epoch (that's when SayTheWords were written). For comparison the 8th Epoch lasted around 350 years (WoK ch 19 the Starfall vision) and each Epoch is a period between Desolations, which got progressively shorter as Heralds were breaking faster on Braize. So Nohadon lived 4000-3000 years before Honor actually died.

The earliest direct mention of Honor behaving differently was from the gem archive recorded during the False Desolation (OB ch 67 epigraphs), when Honor was dying. His changed behavior was also confirmed by the Stormfather during this period (OB ch 113), so it's consistent with what we know.

You cannot swap Vessels without anyone noticing, there is a change in Shard's Tone that can be heard by spren like the Sibling or the Stormfather, possibly others would notice it too. Hoid would also eventually realize that Honor was behaving differently from Tanavast and that a new Vessel Ascended. It's impossible to keep it a secret for 4000 years or so without anyone knowing. WaT ch 19:

 

As for the swap of gods that started Desolations, we don't know what happened there at all, but we know Dawnsingers betrayed spren in some way that made them turn to humans. It seems that Dawnsingers started the swap of gods, not Honor. And it happened at least 1000 years before Nohadon lived. RoW ch 109:

  Hide contents

“Sorry…” Leshwi said. A joyspren burst around her, beautiful, like a blue storm. “Sorry? Venli, they’ve come back to us! They’ve forgiven us.”

Ahh, that's a good point that the Tone of Honor would have changed. And yeah, that's a really long time between Nohadon living and Honor starting to act weird. That pretty much invalidates this theory in my mind. Oh well, having a theory conclusively disproven isn't the worst thing in the world - at least we know for sure that we can cross this option off the list. I certainly can't think of anything to refute these points.