DoomslugTD Posted October 31, 2024 Posted October 31, 2024 As the title has suggested I was wondering what level of "death" must someone attain before they manifest conciously in the cognitive realm and then pass on. Heart has stopped (I doubt its as easy as that), Brain dead (I also doubt because I would think someone being supported while being brain dead in a coma for example would still be revivable by regeneration or something similar, though this doubt is just vibes), Brain cell death (Feels arbitrary, though difficulty / timeline wise it makes more sense) or full cell death (That can take more than a day, so I doubt.) Maybe after one of those conditions are met a timer is started that is either a constant for everyone, maybe determined by probability, maybe by how invested or connected they are and after the timer is up they move on. These are just me spitballing however, so if someone has other ideas let me know. Additionally I am aware that people with more investiture last longer in the cognitive realm, but do we have any sense for how much investiture relates to how long, even vaguely? Additionally I believe that regrowth or other similar healing can still save someone once they are in this state of being conciously in the cognitive realm, though I may be mistaken so I wanted confirmation on that. Basically I want to gain more understanding of when the cosmere considers someone "dead" and what healing can do for someone at any of these levels of "dead"ness. Thanks! 1
alder24 Posted October 31, 2024 Posted October 31, 2024 13 hours ago, DoomslugTD said: As the title has suggested I was wondering what level of "death" must someone attain before they manifest conciously in the cognitive realm and then pass on. Heart has stopped (I doubt its as easy as that), Brain dead (I also doubt because I would think someone being supported while being brain dead in a coma for example would still be revivable by regeneration or something similar, though this doubt is just vibes), Brain cell death (Feels arbitrary, though difficulty / timeline wise it makes more sense) or full cell death (That can take more than a day, so I doubt.) Maybe after one of those conditions are met a timer is started that is either a constant for everyone, maybe determined by probability, maybe by how invested or connected they are and after the timer is up they move on. These are just me spitballing however, so if someone has other ideas let me know. Hard to say. Wax didn't fully die, his soul didn't leave the body, yet he still appeared in CR and Harmony told him his mind and soul was separated from the body (but WoB said it didn't). Kel was just slapped in the face and he felt ripping pain as his soul was being separated from his body, then he appeared in CR. Szeth died when he slammed into the ground during the Highstorm battle, his soul was separated from his body, but was healed before his soul faded into the Beyond (that's why his soul is lagging behind, it's not properly attached) and before his brain died. SH ch 1-1: Quote The Lord Ruler backhanded him. Agony hit Kelsier like a stroke of lightning. In that moment, Kelsier flared the Eleventh Metal, and caught a glimpse of something new [...] Kelsier died. It turned out to be far more painful a process than he had anticipated. Instead of a soft fade to nothingness, he felt an awful tearing sensation —as if he were a cloth caught between the jaws of two vicious hounds. He screamed, desperately trying to hold himself together. His will meant nothing. He was rent, ripped, and hurled into a place of endless shifting mists. BoM ch 28: Quote “I’m dead then.” “Yes,” Harmony said. “Your body, mind, and soul have separated. Soon one will return to the earth, another to the cosmere, and the third … Even I do not know.” WoR ch 88: Quote “I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.” “Impossible.” “Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right fabrial. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late.” Spoiler Questioner Is Wax a Cognitive Shadow, or did he really heal and come back? Brandon Sanderson Wax is not a Cognitive Shadow, good question. Wax did not every fully leave... the soul didn't leave the body. He didn't die, in other words. I should say that he didn't die and leave behind an imprint as a Cognitive Shadow. He could have been Invested in that moment enough to make one, so it's a good question; but he did not. Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020) Spoiler Amerikoni I only yesterday found out you changed the ending for [Words of Radiance]. So here is my question. I've only read the first version where Kaladin kills Szeth. When Szeth gets killed now, it's by the storm. What is it that specifically kills him since he can normally just evade the storm or even be healed by stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Good question! So, the idea here is that Szeth has given up, and wants to die. I wanted the storm to kill him, then, as opposed to Kaladin. What kills him is losing control in the storm, and being slammed into the ground. The bigger change here was actually my desire to leave it at least partially clear that he's not dead, in order to avoid the 'fake out' ending. Having him be dead and reborn was important, but I felt in the first stab I erred on the side of pulling a fast one on the reader. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 21, 2015) 14 hours ago, DoomslugTD said: Additionally I am aware that people with more investiture last longer in the cognitive realm, but do we have any sense for how much investiture relates to how long, even vaguely? Being a Mistborn allows you to stay for minutes in CR, as seen by Kelsier. Radiants of the 2nd Ideal are comparable. How much investiture this is we don't know. RoW ch 117: Quote How long? Eshonai asked. MINUTES. NOT HOURS. 14 hours ago, DoomslugTD said: Additionally I believe that regrowth or other similar healing can still save someone once they are in this state of being conciously in the cognitive realm, though I may be mistaken so I wanted confirmation on that. Seems this way. From Szeth's example it has to be done before the brain dies and before the soul fades into the Beyond. 14 hours ago, DoomslugTD said: Basically I want to gain more understanding of when the cosmere considers someone "dead" and what healing can do for someone at any of these levels of "dead"ness. Thanks! We don't have precise answers unfortunately. Death is a two stage process in Cosmere, which can be reversed as long as the soul doesn't fade into the Beyond. 1
+Lewis Nethur He/Him Posted October 31, 2024 Posted October 31, 2024 14 hours ago, DoomslugTD said: As the title has suggested I was wondering what level of "death" must someone attain before they manifest conciously in the cognitive realm and then pass on. Heart has stopped (I doubt its as easy as that), Brain dead (I also doubt because I would think someone being supported while being brain dead in a coma for example would still be revivable by regeneration or something similar, though this doubt is just vibes), Brain cell death (Feels arbitrary, though difficulty / timeline wise it makes more sense) or full cell death (That can take more than a day, so I doubt.) Maybe after one of those conditions are met a timer is started that is either a constant for everyone, maybe determined by probability, maybe by how invested or connected they are and after the timer is up they move on. These are just me spitballing however, so if someone has other ideas let me know. Additionally I am aware that people with more investiture last longer in the cognitive realm, but do we have any sense for how much investiture relates to how long, even vaguely? Additionally I believe that regrowth or other similar healing can still save someone once they are in this state of being conciously in the cognitive realm, though I may be mistaken so I wanted confirmation on that. Basically I want to gain more understanding of when the cosmere considers someone "dead" and what healing can do for someone at any of these levels of "dead"ness. Thanks! We only have general guidelines so it's very likely going to forever remain a case by case situation in the Cosmere. Kelsier's entire existence is the walking talking embodiment of this principle in that, while definitely outright died perfectly fair and square, he was allowed to come back because he's just that sadistic of a sociopath. We don't know exactly how much time in the CR Investiture buys one after death, only that it seems to range only a few hours if relying on natural born innate investiture alone. I think it's actually perfectly conceivable that someone like the lord ruler could have chosen to stick around in the CR forever if he had wanted to, so...it's possible that highly artificially augmented individuals could display radically or even indefinitely extended presence in the CR after death still.
Light In the Darkness Posted November 1, 2024 Posted November 1, 2024 (edited) On 10/31/2024 at 10:05 AM, hwiles said: We don't know exactly how much time in the CR Investiture buys one after death, only that it seems to range only a few hours if relying on natural born innate investiture alone. I think it's actually perfectly conceivable that someone like the lord ruler could have chosen to stick around in the CR forever if he had wanted to, so...it's possible that highly artificially augmented individuals could display radically or even indefinitely extended presence in the CR after death still. This ^^ We know that Kelsier, accessing the Well of Ascension to an extent, forced his current situation. The Lord Ruler, Vin, and I think Elend all deliberately chose to move on faster than they needed to, though how fast it actually happens is a bit hard to grasp, especially since time is irrelevant in the SR to some extent - hence why Dalinar can make the vision with Tien in RoW for Kaladin. So we have a lot of unknowns there, but it is unlikely that Sanderson will allow people who have already fully died in linear time be re-born or resurrected - that would defeat too much plot. So it's unclear how the timelessness of the SR impacts this. On 10/30/2024 at 7:07 PM, DoomslugTD said: Maybe after one of those conditions are met a timer is started that is either a constant for everyone, maybe determined by probability, maybe by how invested or connected they are and after the timer is up they move on. These are just me spitballing however, so if someone has other ideas let me know. On 10/31/2024 at 9:26 AM, alder24 said: Wax is not a Cognitive Shadow, good question. Wax did not every fully leave... the soul didn't leave the body. He didn't die, in other words. I should say that he didn't die and leave behind an imprint as a Cognitive Shadow. He could have been Invested in that moment enough to make one, so it's a good question; but he did not On 10/31/2024 at 9:26 AM, alder24 said: Szeth died when he slammed into the ground during the Highstorm battle, his soul was separated from his body, but was healed before his soul faded into the Beyond (that's why his soul is lagging behind, it's not properly attached) and before his brain died. With these, it seems to me that there is a bit of Connection impact going on. If we look through Realmatics, I believe it compares people to "rays" that originate in the beyond/SR, pierce the cognitive, and control a body in the physical. "Death" seems to be when the body is damaged enough that the passive investiture in the CR manifestation of the person - their mind - can no longer identify strongly enough with it to maintain the connection to the physical realm. The connection weakens to the point of being broken, and the mind creates a manifestation of itself in the CR for a moment before the connection to the SR fades and the core "person" component gets sucked into the SR just before fading into the Beyond. This is when we call it "death." Reconstitution seems to have several points of potential, and we see it occur in a few situations. 1. Full death, but with potential for normal life and unchanged Identity and core "person" component. We see Sazed offer this to Vin and Elend, but don't know what problems would be faced by them. It doesn't seem like this was an offer to make them functionally immortal or involve cognitive shadows; it seems like they would have had normal lives, with full access to their old Spiritwebs and Allomantic abilities. No weird light-shadows, no missing access like Kelsier - and Sazed seems confident that he can do it. 2. Partial death. Wax was dead enough that without intervention from Sazed, he would have finished dying normally. He was invested enough, by WoB above, that he could have left a cognitive shadow, though I think Sanderson might have been mixed up slightly, since Wax was not yet invested by the bands? But maybe he meant in the act of returning he would have had enough investiture, between the Bands and Sazed's interference. Either way, this seems to be an offer of the same sort as Elend and Vin's, though the time since death was lower, and its realization seems to be more caused by a brief connection to his body created/strengthened by Sazed, and then an immense drain on the goldmind in the Bands. Either way, it seems to have the effects we would expect the offer to Vin and Elend to involve: no weird shenanigans or Cognitive Shadows. Also seen when Lift heals what's-his-face after he was made pretty dead. 3. Full death, with side effects. Return involuntary. Seen with Szeth. Forced, not chosen, and using a fabrial and much less investiture than the earlier cases. Cognitive aspect, which somehow is visible in the PR in this case (maybe the fabrial pulled it over?), lags behind the motions of his body and is improperly Connected to his body, "stapled," almost, similar to Kelsier. Somehow, though, he is able to fully use Surgebinding - maybe because the connections to it are much more strongly housed in the SR? unclear. 4. Full death, Cognitive Shadow return. Voluntary, hacked. Seen with Kelsier - forced the creation of a Cognitive Shadow, then abused Hemalurgy to "staple" it onto a new body. Connection with the body seems stronger than in Szeth's case, but different. He can't burn metals, whether acquired through medallion tech or Hemalurgy, seemingly, despite already having the coding for being Mistborn in his Spiritweb. This may be because it's not his OG body since that was eaten by a Kandra. As a result, magic he should have that strongly relies on physical components, e.g. burning metals, may not have enough connection to his body to access those components. Note that Sazed did not offer to restore him either, that we see on screen. This might be because he was already a cognitive shadow; Sazed either did not want to send him back because of weirdness with that, or couldn't put him back in a normal life because of it, the way he could with the others. 5. Full death, Cognitive Shadow Return. Shard-mediated. The Returned, duh. Seems to occur after an individual is able to see into the SR for a moment, so potentially later in the process of "death" than the others. Might be facilitated much more by a cognitive/investiture "cast" of the person making the shadow as the CR component, as opposed to it being the same CR component but revitalized, which could explain the lost memories. Traits: constant use of investiture to maintain a connection to the physical body. This is either passively obtained/present (e.g. Yumi or the Heralds) or actively obtained (Returned + Breath/Stormlight). The side effect is that the body is heavily influenced by the perceptions of the individual, as opposed to the other way around; potentially, in a normal person, their CR component is mostly brought into the PR, which would explain why it looks like a little ball of light to people in the CR, roughly where the person is in the PR, and why the physical body normally has a significant impact on CR-based self-perception. In a Returned individual, this might be less heavily true; the amount of investiture needed to force the connection to a body is significant, and more of it might remain in the CR, and the amount of it would make changes in PR presentation easier due to CR perception changes. Early worldhoppers might have taken advantage of this; while in the CR, the same effects may manifest, and their perception of themselves could have a significant impact on the reality of their physical forms, which could be one of the means behind their extended age - e.g. Demoux being around still in SA - and similar effects. It's hard to tell why this isn't true for Kelsier, but it likely involves Shardic influence/lack thereof IMO. Any examples I missed? or Thoughts on mechanics? Edited November 1, 2024 by Light In the Darkness Forgot a detail 2
alder24 Posted November 2, 2024 Posted November 2, 2024 15 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said: We know that Kelsier, accessing the Well of Ascension to an extent, forced his current situation. The Lord Ruler, Vin, and I think Elend all deliberately chose to move on faster than they needed to, though how fast it actually happens is a bit hard to grasp, especially since time is irrelevant in the SR to some extent Rashek and Vin were both Slivers and thus could stay as Cognitive Shadows in CR forever - the pull from the Beyond didn't affect them, if they didn't wish to. The SR has not much to do with it, it's all happening in the CR, where time flows as it flows in the PR. The Beyond is not the SR. Spoiler Ward When Harmony Ascends, he admits he doesn't have a good view of the Spiritual Realm. Does he develop a better one over time? And are there other Shards that already have a very good view of that? Brandon Sanderson Yes. But it is still something that is hard to grok, so to speak. In canon-- in science fiction-- hard to understand. But he has a much better understanding, and the other Shards, some of them have a very good understanding. The thing is, the difference between the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond is not something that is immediately obvious. Ward So, the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond? Brandon Sanderson No, Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond. There are three Realms of existence. The Beyond, some would say... There are philosophers would would say, the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond are one, that the soul gets sucked into and joins the Investiture. That's the idea of the One. But, most people would say the Beyond is not... Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) 15 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said: but it is unlikely that Sanderson will allow people who have already fully died in linear time be re-born or resurrected - that would defeat too much plot. This is actually somewhat possible because there is a corpse of a soul left behind in the SR. At best you can create visions like Tien's one. It's also possible for a Shard to keep a dead person to make him later a CR. Spoiler Argent Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture? Brandon Sanderson Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm. Oversleep Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)? Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017) Spoiler Questioner Can a Shard hold on to the Cognitive Shadow of a person for later use? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that can indeed happen. Questioner Without it being fully Invested? Brandon Sanderson You don’t have to fully Invest it, no. They would have to do some Investing shenanigans, but what you’re asking is quite possible, very possible. So, for instance, let me give you a corner case. You might be asking: could Endowment send somebody back later than immediately after they have passed away? The answer would be “yes.” I’m gonna tell you, I have no immediate plans to do that, but it is possible within the framework of the cosmere. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) 15 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said: He was invested enough, by WoB above, that he could have left a cognitive shadow That's not what the WoB said. He wasn't invested enough to leave a Cognitive Shadow, but could have been in that moment by someone (Harmony) and then he would have left a Cognitive Shadow. But as he was, he wasn't invested enough to do that. 15 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said: 3. Full death, with side effects. Return involuntary. Seen with Szeth. Forced, not chosen, and using a fabrial and much less investiture than the earlier cases. Cognitive aspect, which somehow is visible in the PR in this case (maybe the fabrial pulled it over?), lags behind the motions of his body and is improperly Connected to his body, "stapled," almost, similar to Kelsier. Somehow, though, he is able to fully use Surgebinding - maybe because the connections to it are much more strongly housed in the SR? unclear. That's his soul, the spirit web, not his Cognitive aspect. And he can use Surgebinding because it's an ability gained by his soul, which will work as long as his soul is Connected to his physical body, even if a little improperly. Spoiler Glamdring804 Szeth has an afterglow because his soul is lagging behind his body slightly. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Glamdring804 So if he was moving fast enough, could a Shardblade pass through his physical body and not cut the soul? Brandon Sanderson Ummm, that sounds like the sort of thing-- I'm going to say, the soul is more stretchy, so I don't think that's possible. But you could do some weird things where you're cutting the soul and not the body. MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018) 15 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said: The side effect is that the body is heavily influenced by the perceptions of the individual, as opposed to the other way around; potentially, in a normal person, their CR component is mostly brought into the PR, which would explain why it looks like a little ball of light to people in the CR, roughly where the person is in the PR, and why the physical body normally has a significant impact on CR-based self-perception. In a Returned individual, this might be less heavily true; the amount of investiture needed to force the connection to a body is significant, and more of it might remain in the CR, and the amount of it would make changes in PR presentation easier due to CR perception changes. I think their shapeshifting abilities are easily explained just with the nature of investiture itself. Cognitive Shadows are made almost exclusively out of raw investiture, it's either that their soul was invested in the moment of death, or their soul left an imprint in raw investiture that became self-aware, adapting their personality. Either way, this means they are like spren. And spren, just like anything that's also raw investiture, are highly susceptible to perception. They will change to fit whatever people think of it and what they think of themselves. Overall, you're right. Connections are of great importance here. To remain in the Cognitive Realm after death indefinitely, you need either a strong Connection to the Spiritual Realm, or to the Physical Realm. Death removes that Connection to the PR, most people don't have strong enough Connection to the SR, so they fade (the stronger Connection they have, the longer it takes them to fade - Mistborn for example). Slivers or Cognitive Shadows do get this strong Connection to either Spiritual Realm (Kelsier, Fused etc) or Physical Realm (Returned) and can forever avoid being pulled into the Beyond. RoW ch 92, 93 epigraphs: Quote "The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond." "I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed. He faded over the weeks, and is gone now. Beyond your touch at long last."
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