The Differences Between Adonalsium and the Shards

[Confused]

I’m taking a break from preview chapters to write about the differences between Adonalsium and the Shards. Here are my questions and my summary answers. Nothing major. Analysis below.

Are there levels of cosmere “sapience”? Crossing the sapience threshold is all it takes to direct even massive amounts of Investiture. This is a qualitative not quantitative change. 

What does “infinity” mean to a Shard? “Infinity” refers to Adonalsium’s ability to use all of his Investiture. IMO, Adonalsium was the cosmere. Vessels instead Connect to their Shards in the Spiritual Realm. As a result, Shards don’t know where all their assigned Investiture is and can’t readily access that Investiture.

Is a Shard’s control of its “assigned” Investiture equal to its control over its unused Investiture? Shards can only “tweak, influence, and do things” to assigned Investiture. They can accomplish almost anything with a direct infusion of their own Spiritual Realm Investiture.

What does “Invested” mean? “Invested” means a Shard has infused enough of its own Investiture in a location as to become “resident” there and form a perpendicularity.

What Is the Spiritual Realm Like? RAFO, at the end of this post. Pure speculation and too difficult to summarize...

I ran an earlier version of this post past @alder24. He’s great at research and raising unexpected issues. I figured I’d best find out what I missed before I published! This post reflects his comments.

I think the two following WoBs are the leading statements on these subjects. The second is well-known and quite long; I point in bold to the part I think most relevant.

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Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) (bold added).

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ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused. [No, I’m Confused!]

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

[THE MOST IMPORTANT PART IS THIS PARAGRAPH.]

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

Are There Levels of Cosmere Sapience?

Both WoBs say Shard Vessels are inferior to Adonalsium in part because their minds are more limited:

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“The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.”

“(Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.)”

Was Adonalsium simply “smarter and wiser” than each Vessel? Was he “more” sapient than the Vessels? Here are some relevant WoBs.

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The Young Pyromancer

If you built a computer and you programmed it to view the world in a certain way, would that affect the world, like, Cognitive aspect?

Brandon Sanderson

Not unless the computer starts to become self-aware.

Questioner

What if it was an Awakened computer?

Brandon Sanderson

If the computer were becoming self-aware, then it would act like any other sapient entity.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

A self-aware computer might be analytically faster than a human, but sapience refers to wisdom and judgment, not just logic. Nonetheless, an Awakened computer would have certain major advantages over humans that maybe Adonalsium himself possessed.

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Questioner

Would it be possible for an inanimate object that was Invested to the point of sentience Ascend to Shardhood?

Brandon Sanderson

To become a Vessel of Adonalsium, or become a Shard through...? This is a tricky question because the power left alone will become sapient. And at that point, the distinction between being a Shard and a Vessel is fine but still extant. And I would say the power could not become a Vessel in the same way because it's defined as something different. But it is possible for the power to be left alone and to gain sapience on its own. [Bold added.]

Legion Release Party, Sept 19, 2018 (bold added)

The bolded statement implies to me there’s little difference between power directing itself and an independent sapient mind directing the power. The minds of Radiantspren and the massively Invested Nightblood both align along a human sapient scale. Human Vessels can direct a Shard’s power. Even long-lived cosmere creatures like dragons are not “born more wise than a human.” IOW, sapience appears to be a threshold to cross, a quality not quantity, and has nothing to do with levels of intelligence or age-acquired wisdom.

I believe “in the beginning” the clump of Investiture that became the cosmere formed a self-directing mind called Adonalsium. Adonalsium is an anagram for “A mind, a soul.” If Sazed can control two directly opposing Shards, maybe human-level sapience can direct all 16 at once, which would balance any Shard opposition. Unlike the Vessels, Adonalsium just directs himself, like humans moving their arms and legs. It’s certainly possible Adonalsium possessed “super-sapience.” But I conclude even a really smart Adonalsium would still be measured on a human scale of sapience.

Spoiler

Instead, @alder24 suggests Adonalsium might have been the name of the first Vessel for the Investiture that became the cosmere. It’s possible. Before the cosmere exists, IMO a Vessel would have to come from the Beyond. That’s...complicating. Rather than “be” the cosmere, the Vessel would have to Connect to the Investiture in the Spiritual Realm, the way Shards do. I prefer my interpretation.

If Adonalsium was “merely” sapient, regardless of his overall intelligence and processing speed, then his “infinite” power, versus the Shards’ lesser power, IMO does not inhere in the quality of their respective minds. They’re all sapient.

What Does “Infinity” Mean to a Shard?

I wrote a post several years ago on what “infinity” means to a Shard. The cited WoB is the second of the two quoted in full above:

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IMO, Adonalsium was “infinite” because his mind inhabited his soul and was co-extensive with it ... Adonalsium was both “transcendent” – occupying the Spiritual Realm – and “immanent” – pervading the Physical Realm. Adonalsium’s spirit, mind, and body were one.

Shards are slices of Adonalsium. The Vessels’ minds Connect to those slices – “The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.” Vessel minds are not co-extensive with their slices the way Adonalsium was with the entire cosmere. Vessels don’t know the Physical Realm location of their Shard’s “assigned Investiture” and instead must search for it. IMO, that is the sense Vessels are “not infinite.”

I think, IOW, that Adonalsium WAS the cosmere in all three Realms – omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient within its confines – “infinite.” OTOH, Vessel minds Connect to their Shards. Vessels don’t know where most of their assigned Investiture is or how to use it. IMO, that’s the main reason Shards have less access to their Investiture than Adonalsium. He was omnipresent within the cosmere. They are not.

To be clear, I think “infinite” in the cosmere does not mean endless or limitless. Brandon places great emphasis on cosmere thermodynamics. Thermodynamics works only if the cosmere is a closed finite system – a cluster of stars or dwarf galaxy thermodynamically isolated from the greater “Beyond.” I think Brandon uses the word “infinite” in its alternative sense: incalculably vast but nonetheless with limits.

Is a Shard’s Control of Its “Assigned” Investiture Equal to Its Control Over Its Unused Investiture?

It appears not. Here’s part of the second WoB above, with bold added:

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Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.)

I think the words “expanding and exploring your understanding” do not to refer to becoming super-sapient. Rayse didn’t seem super-smart, and Hoid didn’t think much of him even before Rayse became a Vessel. I think those words mean a Vessel’s sapient mind can learn more and more about the Spiritual Realm they inhabit and how it works. They can extend their mind more deeply into their “infinite” Investiture. Until they do, “accessing and using that infinity is beyond [their] reach” (IMO).

Now let’s assume, like Autonomy, a Shard does discover some of its assigned Investiture, which exists in about 1/16 of the created cosmere: “Suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. [Bold added.]”

“Tweak, influence, and do things”? That seems much less than what Shards can do when Investing on their own. (Next section.) I think the reason is that Adonalsium already Invested that Investiture. It’s in place, either as matter, energy, or Physical Realm Investiture. Without dis-Investing (“divesting”?) from that planet and converting the planet into raw Investiture, all a Shard can do is “tweak, influence, and do things” to the assigned Investiture. In Autonomy’s case, that often means granting sapience to its Avatars.

What Does “Invested” Mean?

In the second WoB, Brandon tells us: “We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations...”

About Autonomy finding assigned Investiture, he says, “Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.)”

From these statements I conclude that “Invested” refers to a Shard’s direct use of Investiture in an amount necessary to create a “permanent residence in a location.” Odium, for example, is now “Invested” in Roshar. IMO, that gives him and other Invested Shards greater control over their “residence” than assigned Investiture on their planet gives them.

Shards Invested in a location Connect the three Realms through a perpendicularity. The perpendicularity forms a conduit through which the Shard’s Investiture flows to “create stuff.” I wrote about “Perpendicularities’ Role in the Cosmere.”  That post quotes lots of relevant WoBs (as of April Fool’s Day, 2020!)

What Is the Spiritual Realm Like?

Two of Brandon’s statements from the second WoB:

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Distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

...

But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage.

The Spiritual Realm lacks dimension. Distance, location, motion, space, and time are all irrelevant there. What is relevant? What will mortals see when they enter the Spiritual Realm?

My best guess: The Spiritual Realm appears to sapient minds as bits of Connected Investiture floating in and nurtured by a surrounding ether of raw Investiture – endless inter-Connected Spiritwebs flickering in a roiling raw Investiture cloud.

Planetary Spiritwebs might appear to sapient minds as densely complex, interwoven with the Spiritwebs of everything Connected to the planet – humans, animals, other sentient life. Spiritweb filaments flicker as Connections form, strengthen, weaken, and disappear.

I suspect visiting mortals will perceive dimensions in the Spiritual Realm because of their Cognitive Realm minds. They’ll see each other as what they expect to see. They’ll hear each other’s voices. Though they “walk” through a Realm that mostly has no meaning for them, they will perceive normally the things that do have meaning, like motion, dimensions, and each other.

I speculate a Vessel finds its assigned Investiture by exploring the inter-Connected Spiritwebs until those byways yield a sniff of its Shard, its “spin or magnetism” or “tone” or “frequency,” etc. The Vessel follows this trail back to the source, the assigned Investiture situated somewhere in another Realm.

“Movement” of a Shard in a dimension-less Realm might mean the Shard changes its focus from one group of Spiritwebs to another. When a Shard Invests something, maybe it “drips” its raw Investiture onto the target Spiritweb; the weight of Investiture then punctures the Realms and creates a perpendicularity.

IMO, “magic” mostly consists of making and changing Connections. I think Ruin and Preservation took raw Investiture and bits of cosmere dust, then Connected it all together into Scadrial. I believe Connections “program” raw Investiture into some person or object.

Conclusion

That’s my best guess about this “small” stuff. What do you all think? C.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Confused