ok theory about kaladin and honor

[strmblsd he/him]

ok so it was said that honor can only be taken up by someone who isnt seeking power. someone like kaladin. kaladin all he wants to do is be honorable he would never try to take up a shard which acording to this makes him the perfect match for this. please blow up and everything that i said here i want to hear your oppinions on this and see what you guys think.

[coolsnow7]

I mean… sure? But Szeth doesn’t seem like he wants power either. Or Adolin. Or Shallan. Or Renarin. Or Lift. Or Gawx. Or even the Mink. We have a whole plethora of wholesome people with admirable goals. I don’t think we have any information about who’s suited to the Honor shard that we didn’t have before.

[The Stick]

I still think Szeth will be the one to do the deed. He doesn't truly want anything but punishment for his crimes. He followed his oaths to the point of murder and death and evil. I would say without a doubt, he embodies Honor's Intent absolutely.

[coolsnow7]

8 hours ago, The Stick said:

I still think Szeth will be the one to do the deed. He doesn't truly want anything but punishment for his crimes. He followed his oaths to the point of murder and death and evil. I would say without a doubt, he embodies Honor's Intent absolutely.

Point in his favor: “the Broken One” would refer to him better than anyone. 

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

10 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I mean… sure? But Szeth doesn’t seem like he wants power either. Or Adolin. Or Shallan. Or Renarin. Or Lift. Or Gawx. Or even the Mink. We have a whole plethora of wholesome people with admirable goals. I don’t think we have any information about who’s suited to the Honor shard that we didn’t have before.

Lift? Wholesome goals?

But I do think that Kal is a good candidate, especially since he is a “Child of Tanavast” or Honor, I forgot what was said. But the point about Szeth was good. But guys. Who do we know that is going to the Spiritual Realm? Wouldn’t that list of people be the possibilities for Honor?

[The Stick]

6 hours ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

Lift? Wholesome goals?

But I do think that Kal is a good candidate, especially since he is a “Child of Tanavast” or Honor, I forgot what was said. But the point about Szeth was good. But guys. Who do we know that is going to the Spiritual Realm? Wouldn’t that list of people be the possibilities for Honor?

What makes you think Ishar won't take Kal and Szeth to SR at finale to pick up power?

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

Just now, The Stick said:

What makes you think Ishar won't take Kal and Szeth to SR at finale to pick up power?

Good point…

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

38 minutes ago, The Stick said:

What makes you think Ishar won't take Kal and Szeth to SR at finale to pick up power?

Danilar gets there after learning all the history and is juuuust about to pick it up, and it just flows away and Kal does it XD 

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

6 hours ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

Danilar gets there after learning all the history and is juuuust about to pick it up, and it just flows away and Kal does it XD 

Honestly I could see it. I even had the thought in this week's chapter, when the Stormfather say about Honor's plan:

Quote

It’s working though

Dalinar assumes something else, but what if it really is working with Kaladin. That he has been groomed and developed that he'll be able to pick up the shard?

Thinking back to the prologue 

Quote

Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. Make me a Herald. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head in his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “A demand?”

So close. And so far.

What if the words are more like "give it to me, I must take it" but with different intent - a doing of one's duty, taking and bearing a burden rather than a lust for power. I could see Kaladin doing this - very "Honor is dead but I'll see what I can do"

Edited October 16, 2024 by Dreamwa1ker

[Diomedes]

I also thought that this would make much sense. 

1. This would be the best explanation for the  title of "child of Tanavast", because he is indeed the sucessor of Tanavast in holding Honor, as you guys pointed out. 

2. Kaladin`s name: it means "He-who-is-born-unto-eternity". Kalad: eternity (OB, p.519) , in: to be born unto (OB p.515). When you write a book as an author you don`t give your characters meaningless names, you treat it with extreme care. I think that name would be fitting for somebody posessing eternal life as a shard.

3. This sense of finality in those goodbyes to Bridge Four. Because as a shard he would be separated from his friends like Sazed is. 

4. Fleet`s story is  analogy for Kaladin`s life. At the end of the story Fleet`s soul rises in Shinovar, you might say it ascended in Kal`s case to become the vessel of Honor.

we talked about that here: 

 

[Atlas333]

54 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

2. Kaladin`s name: it means "He-who-is-born-unto-eternity". Kalad: eternity (OB, p.519) , in: to be born unto (OB p.515). When you write a book as an author you don`t give your characters meaningless names, you treat it with extreme care. I think that name would be fitting for somebody posessing eternal life as a shard.

That is super interesting about Kaladin's name but unfortunately, Brandon has talked about problems with giving characters names with meanings 

Quote

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

When I was first naming all the characters, I did this--it's a very classic mistake new writers make. And sometimes it works, but sometimes it doesn't. And this is to name the characters things that relate to their role in the plot. So I was naming all these characters and I was basing their Aons on their personality. Which if you think about, doesn't make any sense. Parents could not name their characters after the trait the characters was going to eventually exhibit?

Questioner

But it's like a mystical thing! Maybe determined or fates...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you could say that. But at the end of the day, if you could look at the back and be like, "This one means Traitor. That character probably is the traitor!" It worked for Star Wars, right? He named Darth Vader, "Dark Father," in German, and none of us got it. When I went back to the books and I looked him over again, when I was editing it, my editor said, "Do you really want to do this. Do you want to name the character this, because they can just look in the back and find out what the character's name means." And I realized no parent would name their kid, "Traitor." I thought it was cute but it was actually just dumb. So I went back and changed it all.

Questioner

Who was it originally and what was his name?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm trying to remember who I named, "Traitor." I named one of the nobles, "Traitor." I'm trying to remember who it was.

Questioner

Probably the traitor one.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah probably the traitor one. It was more than that. I named all of the nobility these names based on what their role in the plot was.

Questioner 2

*Inaudible* Ahan maybe?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. That's who it was, yeah.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

 

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule so maybe Brandon made an exception for Kaladin. Then again, assuming his name is foreshadowing makes more sense than Lirin and Hesina naming their son "born unto eternity" (or maybe they just wanted him to be strong and enduring?)

[Kesamijr]

7 hours ago, Diomedes said:

When you write a book as an author you don`t give your characters meaningless names,

 

Renarin crying in the corner fr

[Kfish]

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

Renarin crying in the corner fr

To be fair, renarin as "born unto himself" outs a lot of focus on his individuality and uniqueness. Lo and behold, he is neurodivergent. 

[Kesamijr]

3 hours ago, Kfish said:

To be fair, renarin as "born unto himself" outs a lot of focus on his individuality and uniqueness. Lo and behold, he is neurodivergent. 

No I totally agree, in a way this actually supports OP’s point. Renarin is socially ostracized, even in name. One could argue his ostracization began with his name actually, but it’s funny that is simultaneously a name that means nothing, given by the author, and the fact that it means nothing is also part of his characterization. 

[RefusesToElaborate]

On 10/16/2024 at 5:37 AM, The Stick said:

What makes you think Ishar won't take Kal and Szeth to SR at finale to pick up power?

Probably the same amount of things that make you think he will.

Personally I believe that what Szeth and Kaladin are doing is gonna take the whole ten days and bring them back about just in time to witness the contest.

[Aon Tia she/her]

@coolsnow7, @The Stick Szeth = Wholesome? That is pushing it, I think! I mean he needs Kaladin the awesome therapist. Szeth is very confused, always looking to follow someone before he has zero faith in his own conviction, is volatile, unpredictable and very judgmental ! May be he can become Wholesome at the end of this book. It is his book and he might pick up the shard but I think if it happens, it might not necessarily be a good thing. I dont see much likelihood of the vessel(Szeth) steering the shard's intent much, feels like his need to follow someone, is going to cause the vessel being completely controlled by the Shards Intent. 

I like Kaladin for this, but at this point I think it is too obvious and is not going to happen like Vin being the Hero of Ages. Same goes for Dalinar, too obvious.

I do like Adolin as a likely candidate. 

Shallan: I dont see her as very honorary! 

Lift: Cultivation some day may be?

Renarin: No simply because I want him to learn more about him, get his ship going with rlain, get his pov book

Gawx: May be 

I like Fen for honor too. 

[elihaun]

So... Where does it actually say that Honor can only be picked up by someone who does not want power? I feel that this line of thinking is starting to go along the lines of the one ring (wanting the power will corrupt you) or the Sorcerers stone (or philosophers stone) from Harry Potter, where wanting the power means you cant find it

The thing is, Kaladin has shown MANY times that he DOES want power: the power to save the ones he loves.  Yes, his oath makes him admit that he CANT save everyone, but that does not mean that he does not want to.  I feel that if kaladin DID get the shard, then he will pull a lord ruler and mess things up more but with good intentions. It is against his nature to get the power and do nothing with it

[𝖂𝖍𝖎𝖗𝖙𝖊]

I am new to this site so maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like Dalinar would make the most sense by far as Honor. There are several reasons I think this, although perhaps this has already been discussed.

1. He is a Bondsmith with powers previously unheard of in a bondsmith.

2. He is bonded to the Stormfather, who seems to have picked up a large portion of Honor's Investiture when he was splintered.

3. Perhaps this was just confusion on the part of Rayse, but when Dalinar opens the perpendicularity for the first time, I can't remember the exact words, but Rayse says something along the lines of: "No. We killed you. We killed you!" I hypothesize that Odium saw Honor's Investiture condensing and assumed that the Shard was reforming, but Rayse was not fully stable at the time, so it is possible that he was mistaken.

(EDIT)

I am not sure if Dalinar could pick up the Shard without a desire for power. It is noted throughout the series that Dalinar has a second-natured tendency to seize power and control. I am not certain if this would effect him as he doesn't seem to want power in the strictest sense. It's not as if he is fighting for power, it's more that he simply assumes that he can do whatever he wants and nobody stops him. I am not sure how the Shard would react to this mindset. It's possible that it only reacts poorly to greed, but would not be effected by entitlement.

Edited November 5, 2024 by WhiteHairedDrifter
more information

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

I think Honor's cognitive shadow attached to the Stormfather specifically so that they could assist the new unchained bondsmith in forcing a merger of Odium and Honor's powers together, creating a combo shard like Harmony. I think the goal was to do this either in a way that would leave Odium's shard inhibited like Harmony's merger did for Ruin, or in a way that would make the shard's intent less dangerous to the Cosmere.

But I think it backfires, and I think Taravangian ends up holding the shard of Justice/Wrath and wages war against all other shards. And I think he ends up with a much easier to control shard.

IF that doesnt happen, then I suspect that Kaladin bonds the Wind, uses his new bondsmith powers to access the Spiritual realm, and then finds and takes up Honor because he "has to" to protect others, but not because he wants to at all. 

Either way Dalinar loses the contest of champions though.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

Deleted - thought it was different thread

Edited November 5, 2024 by Dreamwa1ker
Wrong thread

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

Personally, I don't think it's going to be any of the immediate suspects. Dalinar is contemplating it too early in the book for it to happen (never mind the fact that main thing left in his arc is letting go of power), and Kaladin is getting maybe slightly too much foreshadowing about not making it back.

Honestly, (and sorry, this is kind of a rant) my personal preference would be something other than a scenario that parallels what happened in era one of Mistborn. Let the power of Honor be dispersed among the Souls of all of the inhabitants of Roshar so that it may truly live on in the hearts of men, or let it be dispersed among the Spren to grant them greater permanence in the Physical realm, or let it be dispersed into the very planet itself to turn Roshar itself into a giant Spren, or ... anything else, really.

No hate to the plot of Mistborn era one; I loved it when it happened. I just also foresee it getting stale quickly if we are constantly playing a game of 'which one of our beloved characters will we see assume the power of a god and then enjoy seeing them be twisted by the powers they hold' every time we are introduced to a new cast of characters.

I hope that the explicit build-up to an ascension is an intentional setup for a rug-pull, knowing that the fandom has pre-existing expectations from Mistborn.

rant over.

[Belgarad]

I definitely think it's going to be Kaladin taking up the shard.  I feel like some great sacrifice will be needed to remake Honor.  My gut says all of the Honorspren will choose to merge with the Shard to facilitate its recreation.  This would mean no more Windrunners and help explain some things from the Sunlit Man.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 hour ago, Belgarad said:

I definitely think it's going to be Kaladin taking up the shard.  I feel like some great sacrifice will be needed to remake Honor.  My gut says all of the Honorspren will choose to merge with the Shard to facilitate its recreation.  This would mean no more Windrunners and help explain some things from the Sunlit Man.

This is interesting. It would be a less violent way for Sigzil to lose his bond to his Honorspren before bonding Aux. I'm not sure how/why it would be necessary though - it sounds like the power is available for anyone to take up, provided they can access the spiritual realm a "convince the power to accept" them

[Belgarad]

20 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

This is interesting. It would be a less violent way for Sigzil to lose his bond to his Honorspren before bonding Aux. I'm not sure how/why it would be necessary though - it sounds like the power is available for anyone to take up, provided they can access the spiritual realm a "convince the power to accept" them

I'm not sure how/if it would be necessary given that new information.  I first thought of it after reading Sunlit Man as a way to explain Sig's situation in that book.  Maybe Dalinar needs to use his Bondsmith powers to recombine all the loose bits of Honors investiture in order for it to work.

[Synapticsam]

I'm seeing a lot of good arguments for potential candidates, but is there any reason I couldn't be ALL of them? 16 came together and split the power of Adolnalsium, why couldn't 10 come together and split the power of Honor? 

Dalinar could reforge the "oathpact" in a sense by "Uniting" 10 honorable individuals to share the power.   I think that would fit the theme of the story so far better than yet another ascendance. 

In contrast to Scadrial being ruled by a single person unable to act due to opposing shards, Roshar could be ruled by a council that struggles to act due to opposing vessels