Trusk'our he/him Posted October 11, 2024 Posted October 11, 2024 Bio-Chromatic Breaths aren't likely to be a viable target for Hemalurgy given that they reside in the Physical Realm. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80-shadows-of-self-london-uk-signing/#e5282 Questioner With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets? Brandon Sanderson So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one. Bystander There's still things to decide upon. Brandon Sanderson Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah. However, what if a Hemalurgist instead used a duralumin spike to steal their victim's Identity instead? With a valid Identity to control the Breath, the Hemalurgist could then Command the Breath to move from the donor to the Hemalurgist (assuming the donor isn't already dead from the Spiritweb theft). There's some wackiness involved with what happens if you remove the Identity spike afterwards, but I see it going one of two ways: either Breath is keyed enough to the Hemalurgist's Identity now to function without the donor's Identity, or the Breath still requires more Identity to be Commanded and becomes locked in the Hemalurgist as a Heightening booster but nothing else. We know that a Hemalurgist can usually tap their Feruchemist victim's Metalminds as they have added Identity, but that two Hemalurgists cannot share a Metalmind made by one another even when sharing the same spike's Identity because their own added Identities muddy it too much. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98-worldbuilders-ama/#e872 Lucadaw If someone used Hemalurgy to take someones Feruchemical abilities would they be able to use that persons personal metalminds? Most relevantly perhaps to take that person's knowledge from their copperminds? Brandon Sanderson Yes. <sniped for relevance> WeiryWriter (in response to the first answer) If the spike granting Feruchemy were to be reforged/split into two distinct spikes which are then implanted into two different people, could those two people "share" a metalmind (as in actually be able to tap something the other stored and vice versa?). Brandon Sanderson It's complicated, but no. There would be too much of the other person mixed in. Both could use the metalminds of the person the Feruchemy was stolen from, but when they made their own, their own Identity would "muddy" the creation. In essence, you can probably use an Investiture if you have the necessary Identity even if you yourself have some extra, but you can't necessarily use an Investiture with less of a matching Identity. So, probably the Hemalurgist still needs the spike to Awaken, unless of course the Hemalurgist blanks their Identity with another power before stowing away the Breath, removing the Identity spike, then drawing the blanked Breath back. Basically, I think that this is another hack by which a Hemalurgist could hope to realistically steal Breath. Thoughts? 1
Treamayne Posted October 11, 2024 Posted October 11, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Trusk'our said: Basically, I think that this is another hack by which a Hemalurgist could hope to realistically steal Breath. Sounds like a hack to get Smote. Breath and Divine Breath are willful grants of investiture, and Endowmwnt's intent is specifically about "giving" (not taking) so you are likly to corrupt or destroy what you have taken, and end up on Edgli's kill list anyway. Spoiler Questioner Using Hemalurgy, could you steal the boon from the Old Magic? Brandon Sanderson Oh, from the Nightwatcher? This is theoretically possible. Questioner Would that take the [curse] with it as well? Brandon Sanderson *Hesitantly* Yes. Though it's also theoretically possible to split them apart, that would be a lot harder. Getting the boon, if you knew what you were doing, would not be that difficult. Now, what Cultivation would do to you when she found out that had happened is another thing entirely. Because those are willful grants of Investiture. Questioner Similar to Endowment's with the Returned? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, things like that. When you get a Shard involved and the Shard has...power to... Same thing like...it's on a much grander scale what's happening with the spren bond, right? Questioner When Hemalurgy does spread, most Shards will not be happy about this, right? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is correct. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) I cannot imagine any good from trying to subvert the investiture's underlying Intent in such a manner. Edited October 11, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG 1
Through The Living Grub He/Him Posted October 11, 2024 Posted October 11, 2024 2 hours ago, Trusk'our said: There's some wackiness involved with what happens if you remove the Identity spike afterwards, but I see it going one of two ways: either Breath is keyed enough to the Hemalurgist's Identity now to function without the donor's Identity, or the Breath still requires more Identity to be Commanded and becomes locked in the Hemalurgist as a Heightening booster but nothing else. If you killed them them spiked yourself, I don't think you could retrieve the Breaths in time, but if you didn't kill them and took enough Identity, you might be able to forcibly take their Breaths, but I don't know if your Identity is to contaminated for that. I feel like in terms of Breaths, a Hemalurgist would only need to steal a single Divine Breath to have that easy Immortality, and then torture normal Breaths out of victims you capture. But that's just my two clips. 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 11, 2024 Author Posted October 11, 2024 55 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Sounds like a hack to get Smote. Breath and Divine Breath are willful grants of investiture, and Endowmwnt's intent is specifically about "giving" (not taking) so you are likly to corrupt or destroy what you have taken, and end up on Edgli's kill list anyway. I think regular Bio-Chromatic Breaths are just a natural part of the system like how Allomantic potential is a natural side-effect of Preservation Investing Scadrial's humanity enough to gain sapience. Probably not smart to draw Endowment's attention to this practice, but I don't know that it's a guarantee to get obliterated. Divine Breaths though, yeah, you'd be toast. Or maybe Endowment would be sneakier and trick (or just force) the Hemalurgist into her direct plans. 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: Breath and Divine Breath are willful grants of investiture, and Endowmwnt's intent is specifically about "giving" (not taking) so you are likly to corrupt or destroy what you have taken, If you were spiking the Breath directly I think that this would happen, as we see Hemalurgic spikes Connect you to Ruin despite leeching other types of Investiture: Hemalurgy just seems to convert (though not corrupt in the Cosmere sense) Investiture to Ruin's Intent. Since you're attempting to "retrieve" the Breath in a similar manner to how an Awakener pulls it from Awakened objects, I don't think this hack is likely to do crazy things to the Breath itself. But, that's just my thought process. 1 hour ago, Xiahida said: If you killed them them spiked yourself, I don't think you could retrieve the Breaths in time, but if you didn't kill them and took enough Identity, you might be able to forcibly take their Breaths, but I don't know if your Identity is to contaminated for that. We don't know for sure how Identity contamination would play in this scenario, so it really could go either way. Currently, think that there might be some interference but like with tapping another's Metalmind I suspect it would work the majority of the time. 1 hour ago, Xiahida said: I feel like in terms of Breaths, a Hemalurgist would only need to steal a single Divine Breath to have that easy Immortality, and then torture normal Breaths out of victims you capture. But that's just my two clips. A Divine Breath has exactly enough Investiture to bring you to the 5th Heightening. A Hemalurgist couldn't get enough from one Returned to gain true agelessness as Hemalurgic decay would weaken it somewhat. It would get them close though, and with other perks to boot. Though, again, Endowment's will is an issue for any murderers attempting hits on Returned. Thinking about the scenario more, if a Hemalurgist can take someone else's Breath via Identity theft, an Awakener could probably take the Breaths of Lifeless. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182-stormlight-three-update-5/#e3855 Djarskublar I'd like confirmation/denial of a theory of mine. Is the reason people can recall breaths from objects but not Lifeless or sentient awakened objects because they no longer have the same Identity as the awakener? Brandon Sanderson You are on the right track. This would almost certainly yield diminishing returns though, as I believe a portion of the Breath is converted into a functional Spiritweb for the Lifeless, reducing said Breath's potency upon retrieval.
CtrlAltDepressed Posted October 11, 2024 Posted October 11, 2024 You can definitely steal regular breaths with a nicrosil spike. This WOB is newer than the one you posted so I think Brandon has decided this is possible. Spoiler Pagerunner The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three? Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture? Brandon Sanderson People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have. So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity. Pagerunner So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Pagerunner Then Investiture, is that offworld magics? Brandon Sanderson No, no, it's the raw power. Pagerunner Nicrosil is their soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially. Pagerunner So how would you go about stealing an offworld power? Brandon Sanderson Pagerunner The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three? Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture? Brandon Sanderson People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have. So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity. Pagerunner So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Pagerunner Then Investiture, is that offworld magics? Brandon Sanderson No, no, it's the raw power. Pagerunner Nicrosil is their soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially. Pagerunner So how would you go about stealing an offworld power? Brandon Sanderson It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability. JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021) JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021) 2
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 11, 2024 Author Posted October 11, 2024 40 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: You can definitely steal regular breaths with a nicrosil spike. This WOB is newer than the one you posted so I think Brandon has decided this is possible. Reveal hidden contents Pagerunner The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three? Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture? Brandon Sanderson People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have. So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity. Pagerunner So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Pagerunner Then Investiture, is that offworld magics? Brandon Sanderson No, no, it's the raw power. Pagerunner Nicrosil is their soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially. Pagerunner So how would you go about stealing an offworld power? Brandon Sanderson Pagerunner The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three? Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture? Brandon Sanderson People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have. So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity. Pagerunner So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Pagerunner Then Investiture, is that offworld magics? Brandon Sanderson No, no, it's the raw power. Pagerunner Nicrosil is their soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially. Pagerunner So how would you go about stealing an offworld power? Brandon Sanderson It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability. JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021) JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021) Seems like that could be the case, which would probably lead to a simpler and more reliable (though potentially less efficient) way to steal Breath. What's most interesting to me is why (if he decides to stick with this and it's not just for the simplicity of explaining Innate Investiture to the questioner or he's too bogged down at the moment to go into the finer details of the magics) he's now decided to make Breaths Spiritual Realm based instead of Physical.
CtrlAltDepressed Posted October 11, 2024 Posted October 11, 2024 26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: Breaths Spiritual Realm based instead of Physical. This seems more consistent to me honestly. All other innate investiture we have seen is SR. Scadrians that are born mistings / mistborn have a bit of extra preservation on their soul, not physically. Breaths are associated with your Identity which doesnt make sense to me if they are PR as identity resides in your spiritweb. 5th heightening gives you agelessness which also doesnt make a lot of sense to me if breaths are PR. You would need something on your spirit to prevent it from aging, or you end up like Rashek. Awakeners are quite literally giving souls to the items they awaken, which only really works if they are SR. This explains why you cannot reclaim breath from Lifeless. If you were attaching it physically there should be no problem taking them back. However attaching them to the echo of a spirit web would definitely explain why it becomes contaminated with other Identity and cannot be reclaimed.
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